Proving you checked in/out on oyster

[dan2011]

Yes I did , was told best to use aliases.

 

I have attached the scan from tube station. Hope that helps

 

Danny

[MikeWh]

Yes I did , was told best to use aliases.

 

I have attached the scan from tube station. Hope that helps

 

Danny

That scan is very interesting. The fare for the journey to Marylebone is right and the entries on that printout agree with what I would expect to see. Coming the other way it has zeroed the fare for Marylebone to Elephant & Castle because you have used the OSI to extend the journey into the NR station. The time for that first part of the journey appears to end at 12:46. The next entry looks like it is timed at 12:45. Can you confirm that as it's not 100% clear? If it is then it looks like this might have confused the system, or at least the movie reader. However, if you had touched out then I believe it would have adjusted the deduction to £3.40 again. The next touch is at Streatham, but by then you had exceeded the maximum journey time so it deducted another £4.60.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Mike.

[dan2011]

No the next entry is 12:48 the next train left at 12:49 which I could not take since I was not quick enough. So waited until the 1.03 train

 

The streatham one is understandable, since I was hauled off and waited for british transport police and with FCC people to verify my address which they could not do on the train. Once the BTP arrived and verified my address I was thrown out of the station and told to find my way home and not use public transport since they had blocked my oyster

 

Dan

[dan2011]

Note at elephant and castle I believe there are TWO places for Oyster, one is as you enter from the shopping center and go down the stairs, the other is at the bottom of the stairs. There are no physical barriers (aside from two metal bars at the top) . I cannot actually confirm the oyster at the top but will be able to by Monday.

 

Dan

[dan2011]

@urbanite : Can you explain bylaw 18(2) a little more please, I tried to google but found nothing

 

Dan

[Grotesque]

@urbanite : Can you explain bylaw 18(2) a little more please, I tried to google but found nothing

 

Dan

 

It's here:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?309720-National-Railway-Byelaws-(2005)-Ticketing.(1-Viewing)-nbsp

[MikeWh]

No the next entry is 12:48 the next train left at 12:49 which I could not take since I was not quick enough. So waited until the 1.03 train

 

The streatham one is understandable, since I was hauled off and waited for british transport police and with FCC people to verify my address which they could not do on the train. Once the BTP arrived and verified my address I was thrown out of the station and told to find my way home and not use public transport since they had blocked my oyster

 

Dan

So, just to clarify. After you had finished with BTP at Streatham, did you touch out or did they do it for you? That had actually blocked your card, although all that was needed was a topup to clear the £1.20 deficit.

 

From what I can see you had done nothing wrong. I don't know why the Movie reader didn't see you as in the system. You should get a refund from TfL to your card for £5.80 and FCC should refund the penalty fare. I also think you are due some compensation for unwarranted detention and subsequent stress.

[dan2011]

I did not check out, since they guy at streatham opened the gates because they told him it was blocked. TFL have given a refund, but I am not sure for what. I did NOT pay the penalty fare since they said I had NOT touched in, hence I said I am not sure why I should pay. If they had said I had touched in incorrectly or something I would have paid no problem. The only thing I did was not to sign the form nor state that I agreed to their caution, since I did not fully understand it. I refused to sign the form since it had the incorrect destination entered and also had not been completed, which I felt was within my rights. I gave my oyster when they wished to check it, and gave my correct address.

 

One small question, how can I tell if I checked in our out, and do you get charged on a checkin i,e on entry or on exit (TFL and NR)

 

tks guys for everything, I will get my TRIM records from TFL and then await what FCC says. Is there a statute of limitations on this. Also urbanite mentioned strictly speaking I broke bylaw 18(2) read what that said but not so clued up on law, any ideas ?

 

 

 

Danny

[MikeWh]

OK, sorry I'd been confusing your story with another where the PF had been paid. Someone touched your card out at Streatham at what looks like 14.28. Because this was over the maximum journey time from your original touch in at Marylebone it was treated as a new unstarted journey. This took your balance below zero which is why the gate didn't open.

 

When using PAYG you get a maximum fare deducted on entry. This is currently £4.60 off-peak at 99% of stations. When you touch out the deduction is adjusted to the correct fare, usually by crediting back an amount. If you touch in after an OSI the system re-deducts up to the maximum fare and then recalculates the correct overall fare when you touch out again. On your statement the 12:48 line is a touch in because it says Pre Pay Entry at Elephant & Castle. The 14:28 line is a touch out at Streatham (5383) with a missing start location. Had you touched out at Mitcham Eastfileds within the maximum journey time those two lines would have been replaced with something like Marylebone - 5069 via zone 1 thru £3.40.

[dan2011]

Perfect tks, just one last question , at elephant and castle I believe there are two oyster places, is their any difference between the two or should I have touched at one or the other....

 

Danny

[MikeWh]

Perfect tks, just one last question , at elephant and castle I believe there are two oyster places, is their any difference between the two or should I have touched at one or the other....

 

Danny

I don't know how many readers there are but it doesn't matter which one you use, no. The only different sort are the ones attached to a ticket machine used for topping up. If it's gates then you must touch on a reader with an orange light and not one with a red light. This corresponds to the way the gate is set up (either entry or exit) and applies even if it is locked open. Platform validators like at Elephant and Castle NR handle both entry and exit so it doesn't matter.

[The Urbanite]

No routing data? That's a new one for me!

[andydd]

Just to add there are different Pink Oyster readers that arnt the standard in/out ones..they are used to prove you used a certain route...for example zone 6 to 6 but avoided all of zone 1, thuis the journey is cheaper.

 

Andy

[MikeWh]

No routing data? That's a new one for me!

Most journeys show this. All it means is that there is only one route between the two stations. When there is more than one (ie alternate fares) it says which one was used.

[dan2011]

Guys what is a TRIM report, I called TFL today to get one, and they did not have a clue what one was, so it was like the blind leading the blind. I have a journey report which was emailed to me by TFL is that one and the same thing ?

 

Danny

[MikeWh]

Guys what is a TRIM report, I called TFL today to get one, and they did not have a clue what one was, so it was like the blind leading the blind. I have a journey report which was emailed to me by TFL is that one and the same thing ?

 

Danny

I believe that TRIM is TfL's internal system for tracking Oyster useage. I'm not surprised that you have had difficulty getting it because I had the same issue when helping another person last year. If the journey report is like a statement detailing your journeys over the last 8 weeks then that isn't the report that Urbanite is talking about. However, it might be enough anyway. In fact the printout from Wimbledon that you scanned last night tells me that you did touch in at Elephant and Castle NR, so you've probably got enough.

[The Urbanite]

Example of a JSR compared to a normal journey statement. In my case, I really needed it because the conventional statements were utterly useless. I agree with MikeWh that the statement you hold, dan2011, is sufficient.

 

Edited January 13, 2012 by The Urbanite

[dan2011]

tks urbanite, I have the first table not the second, i.e the one with the status column. Can I get this from TFL if so what do I need to ask for. I asked for the journey log and they emailed me that

 

Danny

[The Urbanite]

You need to ask for a TRIM Journey Status report. Once you've obtained one, we can help to construct a solid appeal.

[The Urbanite]

Any updates at all? From 15:00 tomorrow I shall have an abundance of spare time to help out with the appeal.

[dan2011]

Hi

 

Yes just got a letter from the prosecutions dept. They want me to send a report of the journey made BEFORE they decide whether or not to prosecute. Before I do this I have one query. IN the attached printout, I have shown my TFL journey printout. At 11.38 it says Elephant and castle No routing data and 12.07 Marylebone via zone 1 thr and charges me £3.40 what does this mean. The reason I ask is that I started the journey at Mitcham Eastfields and went to E & C overrail, then left the station, went to E & C tube and to Marylebone on the tube. Does that line show this or not ? Personally it does not seem to, since there is no mention of Mitcham Eastfields ?

 

Danny

[MikeWh]

Hi Danny,

 

Mitcham Eastfields is shown, but only as it's NLC code. I'll describe all the entries relating to that day so you (and they) can be clear what it shows.

 

1. 11.18 Auto Pre-Pay £10.00 This is a top up.
   
2. 11:36 5069 - Elephant and Cas No Routing Data £0.00 This is the first stage of your journey where the charge was zeroed by touching in at the other end of the OSI.
   
3. 12:07 5069 - Marylebone via zone 1 Thru £3.40 This represents the whole journey from Mitcham to Marylebone which is a through NR+TfL journey including zone 1.
   
4. 12:46 Marylebone - Elephant&C No Routing Data £0.00 This is the first stage of your second journey where the charge was zeroed by touching in at the other end of the OSI.
   
5. 12:46 Pre-Pay Entry Elephant & Cas £4.60 This is where it goes wrong. This shows you entering the NR station to continue your journey but instead it has started a new journey. As this wasn't finished in time it is left as just the off-peak maximum fare.
   
6. 14:36 Unstarted - 5383 No Routing Data £4.60 This was when you touched out at Streatham. Because you exceeded the maximum journey time from Elephant this is treated as a new unidentified journey with another off-peak maximum fare.
   

Since you originaly posted this I have discovered something which I think may be at fault with the Oyster system. It looks like you touched back in at Marylebone within a few minutes of touching out at the end of your first journey. That appears to be confusing the system because it thinks you are continuing your first journey. I'm not 100% sure what is happening, but I've raised a FOI request to find out. I've had reports of similar issues occuring at several other stations where the common factor is that they are part of an OSI with another station. Although the RPI on the FCC train saw you as out of the system, had you been able to touch out in the normal way at Mitcham Eastfields then the correct fare would have been charged. Instead your card had 2x£4.60 deducted where it should have been £3.40.

Please feel free to copy my explanation directly to FCC.

[dan2011]

Thankyou very much

 

I know why the error is at Elephant and Castle its because I was taken off the train, and the one at streatham is that I had to wait for an hour on 'hold' until I was processed and allowed out of the gates. So as long as it shows that I touched in through my journey its all good.

 

The letter I received from the prosecution department is not a fine or anything, not even a summons. There request is

 

"they would be obliged if I could obtain a print out from TFL and send it to them. and the letter "seeks an explanation about the ALLEGED incident of fare evasion that took place..." Ironic that its now become alleged incident.

 

Once they receive the info they : will be able to make an informed decision about how the department will be going forward with this case"....

 

Let me send my printout to them, and then we can take it from there once they decide to drop the prosecution.

 

Danny

[The Urbanite]

The Journey Status Report will provide sufficent evidence that you validated when required in a format that FCC will be able to understand and unable to refute. However as you don't seem very bothered about following my advice then I wish you the best of luck!

[MikeWh]

The Journey Status Report will provide sufficent evidence that you validated when required in a format that FCC will be able to understand and unable to refute. However as you don't seem very bothered about following my advice then I wish you the best of luck!

I think that's a little unfair, The Urbanite. 99% of all helpdesk staff have absolutely no idea what a JSR is. I'm fairly confident that my thorough explanation of his card printout will be enough to convince FCC that he did touch where he should have done.