CCA Laws

[sacg]

Hi all,

 

not sure if this is the right thread, but just wanted clarification on any changes in law regarding CCA requests. I recently read somewhere that a company does NOT have to provide you with a "signed" copy of the original agreement in order to make the debt enforceable. Whereas, as i believed it, the did?

 

Is this the case?

[DonkeyB]

Have a google of Carey v HSBC. Plenty of threads on here about it.

[sacg]

Ok, had a look. So I'm assuming they don't have to provide you with a signed agreement anymore?

[DonkeyB]

Not to satisfy a s 78 request, no, not necessarily.

[casper1963]

i was lead to believe that was post 2007 and pre 2007 it did have to be the original signed agreement, Could someone please clarify this

 

Kind Regards casper

[sacg]

So just to clarify, and sorry for repeating....All a DCA or OL has to do is send you a "recent" copy of their agreement and T&C's and that's classed as enforceable?

[DonkeyB]

Not quite.

 

First of all, there should be a copy of the agreement you signed (or would have signed), though it can be a copy.

 

The T&Cs must be included from the time the account was opened. To satisfy a s 78 request, there must also be the T&Cs applicable at the time the account was closed. Each copy must have your name and address exactly as they were at the time the T&Cs were issued.

 

Most importantly, any T&Cs MUST have been present at the time you signed the agreement (when it comes to enforcement).

 

That’s horribly basic and not strictly accurate, but if all you are after is a s 78 request, it’s close.

[flowerchild]

There's more to enforceability/unenforceability than a signature, the prescribed terms should be all included as they were at the time of opening the account and as varied. There's special rules regarding two part agreements, for example, for a loan with PPI.

Compliance with a S78 request and enforceability are not the same thing.

 

This is a thread about requesting a signed agreement: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/173201-why-you-shouldnt-use.html#post1868913

 

PT2537 the author is a solicitor...

 

There's also this one: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?314597-Challenging-Reconstituted-Agreements

 

Plenty of material in the Legal Issues section of the forum...

[DonkeyB]

Exactly, flowerchild, but many judges allow recons for enforcement, sadly.

[flowerchild]

Exactly, flowerchild, but many judges allow recons for enforcement, sadly.

 

Even though on Carey it says exactly the opposite, i.e. that a recon can satisfy a S78 request but you'd need an original to get a CCJ... :mad2:

 

I guess it all depends on how well you defend and how good is the recon...

[DonkeyB]

We need someone to argue against a recon successfully... couple on the go at the moment...

 

You’d think Carey was clear enough, but clever briefs pick and choose the bits that suit. LiPs tend to assume the judge knows the case law, but you really have to spell it out. That’s the huge mistake most LiPs make – failing to properly argue their case, and assuming the judge is omniscient.

[flowerchild]

We need someone to argue against a recon successfully... couple on the go at the moment...

 

You’d think Carey was clear enough, but clever briefs pick and choose the bits that suit. LiPs tend to assume the judge knows the case law, but you really have to spell it out. That’s the huge mistake most LiPs make – failing to properly argue their case, and assuming the judge is omniscient.

 

Agree 100%! Judges deal with a lot of different issues not just Consumer Credit, and to remember every bit of case law as well as statute and common law would require a super-human mental capacity! They are there to pass judgment on the facts put in front of them, not to do research for you!