Phones 4U missold tariff

[lee6370]

Hope someone can help.

 

Took out an upgrade with Orange via Phone 4U, I was offered the following tariff;

 

900 mins, unlimited internet & unlimited texts.

 

This suited me fine as I'm a high data user, normally exceeding 1 GB of data a month. However when I logged onto the Orange website my tariff stated I had 750mb and not unlimited.

 

I had a web chat with one of their advisers (regarding another issue), and asked her to confirm my tariff and she confirmed it was unlimited internet (I saved the web chat), I then had a 2nd specifically to discuss my data allowance, at first the advisors said that I hadn't been told it was unlimited, once I pointed out I had saved a copy of the 1st web chat, he suddenly found it and confirmed that "yes it appears that is what you were told".

 

So my question is what can I do?

 

I'm not after cancelling my contract or money; I just want what I was offered and agreed to.

 

Where do I stand?

 

Thanks you for any help and advice.

[locutus]

Well, follow their complaints code, http://www1.orange.co.uk/documents/about/Orange-complaints-code-20110118.pdf Tell them what you want as a solution, and if they are unwilling to provide this, ask for a DEADLOCK letter. Escalate the complaint as far as you can, saving all correspondence with them. Orange have stated to another CAG member when they signed up that it came with unlimited internet, and later when she went back to the store to complain, they said "unlimited is 500 meg" . Again, they backtracked and said "maybe they said that but it was wrong, however your contract is still valid"

 

Keep this in writing, take this to CISAS after you have received a deadlock letter or after your complaint has been ongoing for 8 weeks.

 

FYI Three are the only mobile supplier I know that offer "unlimited" internet (so if they counter that none offer unlimited, get them to look at http://threestore.three.co.uk/TheOnePlan.aspx)

 

keep us informed as to how you progress.

[lee6370]

Thanks, i'll keep you updated.

[watchinginvestigation2011]

Yep the other cagger is me. I have recorded phone calls doing test calls due to what miss sold and could prove in my case the product with orange was being sold as unlimited and then they chose to retract and state the limit.

Though mine was not phones 4 u, but it does seem mobile sales agents of some companies get a little carried away shall we say with the thought of a potential sale, for the customer to be left begging for what they were promised. As you have the chat as I had the recordings, you are in strong position and can politely demand either a total cancellation of the contract or to be given what you were promised.

 

I mean there are other providers who do offer TRUE unlimited as in '3' who I am now with, dependant on package chosen.

 

Best of luck and dont let them fobb you off.

 

Orange leaves a very bad taste in my mouth, its up to phones 4 U wether they want to avoid that with you

Edited November 8, 2011 by watchinginvestigation2011

[watchinginvestigation2011]

ps. With phones 4 u dont put up with them trying to fobb you off to the supplier(just in case they do, but hoping they wont), who will obviously return you to seller, the problem in your case is clearly phones 4 u, but they are naughty in sending people on supplier, store merrygoround. I have experienced that with them on another issue long resolved

 

[lee6370]

Ok quick update.

 

1st stage of complaint was a phone call to account team (yes I did record it), was told;

 

1. Yes I was told it was unlimited internet but I was also told of the fair usage policy – I pointed out that my experience of a fair usage policy was that should I use an excessive amount of data, then my usage may be monitored, I warned or my use restricted, the fact that Orange had told me I would be charged as soon as I exceeded 750mb, did not strike me as a fair usage policy (having checked my Orange terms and conditions, it contains a fair usage policy for the unlimited texts, but no mention of a fair usage policy for data)

 

2. My tariff (750mb) is considered unlimited for my tariff. - when I asked him what the 1gb and 2gb tariff were considered to be then, he seemed a little stumped, I tried to push him on it, i.e. how can 750mb, 1gb and 2gb all be unlimited, surely if there was a cap to "unlimited data" then only one could honestly be called it, by his logic even the 100mb data bundle was considered unlimited "for its tariff"

 

3. They only sell it as unlimited because that’s what Orange tells them to do – I asked him why then, when Orange sells them direct they do not state unlimited data – Had a web chat with 2 sales advisers, and despite my best efforts could not get either of them to mention unlimited, in fact they both stated Orange don’t do an unlimited data plan. (Saved both web chats).

 

So will be posting a letter today asking for clarification and either unlimited data to be added to my tariff or the cancellation of my contract.

[Surfer01]

We also got caught by orange and their data charges and this was 5 years ago. Seems they are still up to their old tricks. Cost me nearly £400 in charges plus a DN on my credit record as I could not pay the £400 immediately.

[lee6370]

Normally I’d moan, complain and then stay in the 750mb limited, but when they sold it to me I specifically asked if it was unlimited as I was under the impression that Orange had stopped doing unlimited, and he assured me it was unlimited, so going to take it as far as I can.

[lee6370]

Had a phone call from Phone 4U this morning, not in relation to my letter of complaint (only posted it yesterday), seems it has just been escalated to the customer relation team.

 

Phones 4U seemed to just want to let me know that “fair use policy” had been investigated by the Advertising Standards Authority, and had ruled in favour of the mobile phone companies!!

 

I did ask what the ASA had to do with UK contract law?

 

Conversation was quite short, I reiterated my point i.e. If I went over my limit on my minutes I would be charged, if I went over the fair use limited on my texts I would be warned and if I went over the limit on my data I would be charged, therefore since the same rules applied to my data as applied to my minutes and since my minutes are not subject to a fair use policy, then neither could my data considered to be.

 

So I still wanted my unlimited data, and the subject of a fair use policy was a unnecessary and irrelevant sidetrack.

 

I did however look up the ASA ruling and as I’ve highlighted Vodafone say that in the first instance they will request moderation in the usage, this isn’t want my Orange contract say’s, it say’s I will be charged so clearly not the same thing.

 

 

The ASA noted all the ads made clear that a fair-use policy applied to the service and the level at which the allowance was set. We noted the information provided by Vodafone demonstrated that only a very small proportion of their customers had exceeded the fair-use policy limited and that action was likely to be a request to moderate their usage in the first instance. We acknowledged that the vast majority of customers used only a small amount of the available allowance and concluded that the existence of a fair-use policy did not contradict the claim "unlimited mobile internet"

[lee6370]

sorry double post

Edited November 15, 2011 by lee6370
double post

[lee6370]

Quick question, does phones 4U subscribe or come under either the Communiations Ombudsman Service or Cisas?

 

I have looked but can't find the answer, (it seems these 2 only apply to mobile service providers) and since i can't see Phones 4u playing nicely, i just wanted to get prepared.

[watchinginvestigation2011]

If you have phones 4u saying recorded that they describe it as unlimited as orange tell them to do so, then put it in writing or email them that you woudl like written proof of this fact, as you are aware orange do not now, haha sell it as unlimited and are suprised phones for you are still quoting it.

 

If you really have that on tape, you have them. Ask them to provide proof of you being told that the fair usage is limited to 750mb and therefore limited not unlimited.

 

You probably need to ring orange let them know what has happened and that the account is in dispute for this reason and can they give you a deadlock letter as phones 4u according to alleged call are saying orange are telling them to quote unlimited which you find misleading, especially as there are more than one thread informing you that this is nor a one off involvine orange contracts wether sold by them or phones 4u.

 

Thimg is if you stop paying, orange or phones 4u could poss trash your credit file, you need to inform them to either suspemd the account or if they wont that you are paying under duress and will expect refund of all monies whilst seek advice of cicas if that is the route you want to go.

 

If you are not bothered about credit file, you could stop the dd inform orange adn both phones 4u that you insist you are miss sold and that unless they give you what you signed up to you wil cancel wether they like it or not as you have recorded call proving you were miss sold as confirms that they are still quoting unlimited in sales patter wether them or the agent in cases and still go to cicas.

 

If they have a recorded call (if sold over phone) telling you in the sales pitch that they have a fair usage policy and you agreed to it however then you are stuffed like a turkey, sorry, so be sure you were clearly told unlimited without fair usage mentioned. If sure of that fact then you should stick to your guns as they will only learn when realise their agents in these companies or their own agents even are pushing too hard for sales, or as I suspected due to a number of recordings I had that they deffo were still saying unlimited and more than one agent saying it indicated to me in my orange issue, it was at more a senior level or purely down to bad training of staff.

 

Best of luck adn when rid of orange your stress lines will ease xx Never know you might heare sorry we will give you what we led you believe you were gettting, however with me direct with orange they did not want to know, so I left, best thing I ever did as three are brill

Edited November 17, 2011 by watchinginvestigation2011

[watchinginvestigation2011]

I really want to believe that companies like phones for you and orange do not routinely miss sell, its just hard when I experienced orange doing just that to me and prior phones for you telling me the reception in my area re a prior account was brill, to find the mast had been taken down and they hadnt even been aware of that fact, hence no service, dead as a do do.

 

In both cases I got contract cancelled, but in both cases I had to argue and the mention of your word against ours was said in both cases, and I successfully proved in both cases I was right.

 

Its hard for us trusting souls to understand if it is a case of one off rogue agents or mistake that so many can come across similar experiences and woudl be much easier for us forgiving peeps if a company just said sorry we will sort to your sattisfaction and therefore keep you as a customer, but instead for some reason they like to put the fear of god into us, let us think the court will linch us as if and that we are beholden to them as the onus is on us to prove your word against ours. Their staff view of a sale is taken as you have been told, but when customer says no I was not or they said unlimited, they happily discount that and leave us feeling like poo on the shoe.

 

Shows you no matter how much a company spends on posh tv adverts, their customer service alone is enough to make your skin crawl whenever they appear on your telly. Orange adverts make me growl like a dog and phones for you new advert appears to look like a mini horror story with the almost what appears to me zombie character that makes me think yuk AVOID one bad experience a life time thanks.(personal experience creeping in there, haha)

 

So op sorry I have gone on, but best of luck getting it sorted and good on you for recording all calls xx

 

As for cicas and phones for you, you could ring them and ask them are they able to issue deadlock letter of does it have to be through orange, I hope someone might jump in and answer that for you prior though

 

Come on orange or phones 4u lets see this customer problem resolved with the lack of bad taste left that I got in my experience. You can do it if you really want to, we know you read these forums.

Edited November 17, 2011 by watchinginvestigation2011

[lee6370]

Couldn't get to a pc yesterday, but phones 4u rang me;

 

Said they hadn't done anything wrong but as a good will gesture was offering me a cheque for £240, told them I needed to consider my position and would let them know in a day or 2.

 

Now I know they are in the wrong, and the fact that they are offering £240 suggests they know it to, but how hard is it going to be to pursue this or should I just accept the £240?

[Surfer01]

With Orange we came up against a blank wall even though I had it in writing that for the duration of the contract I was entitled to a 1GB download every month which is why I entered into the contract. Try and get out of the Orange contracrt if you can but at the same time be very aware of your credit record. You will get more help from the man down the road than the Ombudsman. It seesm the Ombudsman is scared of mobile phone companies. Also Sale of Goods Act is ignored by mobile phone companies.

[lee6370]

Not to worried about credit record as I'm still paying the bill, just seems strange they would offer £240 if they really believe they have done nothing wrong.

 

I'm happy to fight this but only if I gave a reasonable chance of winning.

[lee6370]

Have just had an email confirming the offer of £240.

 

They don't admit any wrong doing and it's just a good will gesture, there legal team state that because the script provided by orange call the data bundle unlimited and that's what they used then they haven't done anything wrong, which seems like saying " they told me to say it, so it's not my fault for saying it" don't they have some responsibility to ensure their sales script is true and correct?

 

Could really do with some feedback, not sure what to do.

 

And sorry for any grammar or spelling mistakes, hard to proof read on my phone

[locutus]

I guess this depends on how much data you actually use and how much more your bill is going to be, but as Three offer a PAYG with all you can eat data package for £15 per month, I'd use that as a bargaining point and get them to revise the offer, unless you cannot manage on 750 meg then you really need them to cancel the contract.

 

Let us know what you decide, and how you get on.

[Surfer01]

I can see where Phones 4U are coming from as it seems that Orange may have misled them with stating "unlimited" data. They advertised it as such and now have to carry the can through no fault of theirs however it is an offence for a retailer to misrepresent anything. I suggest that you discuss it with Trading Standards to see if you can cancel the contract due to misrepresentation. Under Sale of Goods Act Phones 4U are liable as the "manufacturer" in this case is Orange and under SOGA the goods are not as described.

[lee6370]

Thanks for the feedback.

 

I've looked into this further and the Orange T&C's stated on the phones 4U website are not the current T&C's that Orange use.

 

The old T&C's as shown on the Phones 4U website do mention a fair usage policy in relation to data, (but not unlimited data) the new T&C's which apply to my contract and under which my phone & tariff was sold, do not state any fair usage policy in relation to data or any unlimited plan for data. So they shouldn't have sold it as unlimited and saying a fair usage policy applied is not applicable and has no bearing on the matter because a fair uasge policy doesn't apply.

 

So have mailed Phones 4U to say thanks for the offer but I want what i was sold or i don't want the contract.

 

Will keep you updated.

 

Will keep you updated.

Edited November 23, 2011 by lee6370

[lee6370]

Had an exchange of mails today, phones 4U sent me a link to orange T&C's and said "link to Orange's T's&C's.* Sections 7 and 9.2* both refer to data usage under fair usage allowance"

 

In reading the T&C's, ( which I've already done, wouldn't have taken things thus far if I hadn't) section 7 makes no mention of data at all never mind in relation to fair usage and section 9.2 is about the charges incurred when going over your data allowance.

 

Do wonder if they think people can't read, or they don't bother even checking these T&C's themselves.

 

Have been promised a final decision on Monday, so will see if they are going to back down or I need to move things on to the next stage.

[sparx]

FYI Three are the only mobile supplier I know that offer "unlimited" internet

 

Giff Gaff (Part owned by Telefonica/O2) also offer completely unlimited internet.

[lee6370]

No contact yesterday, but as i was preparing my letter to Orange, i received a phone call from Phones 4U;

 

They are asking that i hold off taking any further action whilst they discuss the matter further between themselves and Orange, seems it's no longer with the legal department but now at director level, not sure whether to take that with a pinch of salt or not, but will give them the benefit of the doubt and wait till end of the week.

[lee6370]

Phone call today from Phones 4U;

 

Their position is that they have done nothing wrong, because after asking Orange "Do you instruct your sales team to sell the 750mb data plan as unlimited or subject to fair usage policy"

 

The reply they got was "we don't have a policy of not telling them to do this" and on this basis Phones 4U think they are in the clear.

 

I did try to get him to see that this was an attempt to avoid answering the question, it was no differant then asking Ford if they told their sales people "did they instruct sales team to tell customers that a fiesta could go 250 mph" and Ford saying "well we don't have a policy of not telling them to do that", it's a meaningless answer.

 

So going to try and get clarification from Orange, then back to Phones 4U and off to the small claims court i think (will be seeking some help on how to word it)

[lee6370]

Quick question;

 

Would selling a phone as having unlimited data, subject to a fair usage policy - that turns out to not have unlimited data and there is no fair usage policy, fall under The Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008?

 

just asking before i start reading reams of documents