Cap1 & CCA return

[un1boy]

or did they hope the consumer would be so dumb and stay blissfully asleep and unaware of the reg's in the CCA 1974.

 

You go it in one - I think the OFT shouold really act now because at the end of the day, it is they who are credit license holders and therefore it is they who should be aware of the legislation which is relevant and governs their business.

[pford]

aslo from the Wilson Case the following quote was from one of the judges

 

 

Quote: Lord Justice Sedley – "the moral for a pawnbroker such as Mr Howard is that if he wants the rewards of his trade he must operate strictly by the book, and that the failure to do so may be not merely to unravel agreements, but to reverse the indebtedness that they have purportedly caused."

[Peterbard]

hi

Finnally got the lowdown on the section 59 issue.

It should be a great help to all you is it a application or is it a sheep worryers out there.

Turns out Jones and few others of us were correct,section 59 would make an agreement void if signed and then executed by the creditor but only if there were no cancellation terms or notices on it.

Not many applitaion forms with cancellation terms mentioned are there.

 

Peter

[un1boy]

hi

Finnally got the lowdown on the section 59 issue.

It should be a great help to all you is it a application or is it a sheep worryers out there.

Turns out Jones and few others of us were correct,section 59 would make an agreement void if signed and then executed by the creditor but only if there were no cancellation terms or notices on it.

Not many applitaion forms with cancellation terms mentioned are there.

 

Peter

 

I am really sorry Peter, can you clarify? I am having a blonde day and don't understand what you mean.

 

Can you also advise me if an agreement I have, dated oct 2004 should have the cancellation clause in it? And/or should it have been sent seperately?

[Peterbard]

Hi

Sorry when you have been chasing something for a while you think everyone else is thinking along the same lines.

A while ago i put it forward the idea that section 59 would void any agreement that was signed that was not executed ie a future agreement.

A few agreed and a few didn't the problem was that if we were right then any agreements signed away from the traders premises and still unexecuted would be affected so it was a bit of a mystery.

Anyway i eventually got a reply from th OFT today and they agreed that the section would indeed make any such agreement void but because of a regulation via section59(2) it would not apply to contracts of the above nature which provivide any scope for cancellation.

So any contracts which are not executed on the debtiors signature and are not cancellable are void.

Which opens whole new can of worms.

I am now looking into agreements that are uncancelllable because they are signed on creditors premises.If reg 59 aplies to these then there are one or two car hire purchase agreements i have been looking at recently that are going to be in trouble, one of the the agreement wasn't signed(executed) untill a month after the debtor signed it.

Unfortunately they didn't give me the location of the specific regulation but i have requested it and when i have it i will post it.

Regards

Peter

[angry cat]

Hmm!

 

What about an application form that states-

"YOUR RIGHT TO CANCEL

once you have signed this agreement (application form) you will have for a short time a right to cancel it. Exact details of how and when you can do this will be sent to you by post".

Surely, is the application form states the above, by the time you receive the details, it would be too late!?

Also in the case of a 2001 internet application, the above would not apply due to the creditor having to send a right to cancel notice separately! but one has signed a slip or form with a Your Right to Cancel box already on it.

 

AC

[Peterbard]

I am really sorry Peter, can you clarify? I am having a blonde day and don't understand what you mean.

 

Can you also advise me if an agreement I have, dated oct 2004 should have the cancellation clause in it? And/or should it have been sent seperately?

hI Uni#

 

By the way did i tell you i got aletter from Barclays about my sonsacclunt sayng the were no longer pusuing because the had no agreement.Good old FOS.

 

The new agrement regs came out in september 2005 so they will still be controlled by the 1983 regs

It depends on what type of agreement you have and how and where it was made.

 

PM me if you like and i will be glad to have a look

 

Regards

Peter

[un1boy]

Hi

Sorry when you have been chasing something for a while you think everyone else is thinking along the same lines.

A while ago i put it forward the idea that section 59 would void any agreement that was signed that was not executed ie a future agreement.

A few agreed and a few didn't the problem was that if we were right then any agreements signed away from the traders premises and still unexecuted would be affected so it was a bit of a mystery.

Anyway i eventually got a reply from th OFT today and they agreed that the section would indeed make any such agreement void but because of a regulation via section59(2) it would not apply to contracts of the above nature which provivide any scope for cancellation.

 

So any contracts which are not executed on the debtiors signature and are not cancellable are void.

Which opens whole new can of worms.

I am now looking into agreements that are uncancelllable because they are signed on creditors premises.If reg 59 aplies to these then there are one or two car hire purchase agreements i have been looking at recently that are going to be in trouble, one of the the agreement wasn't signed(executed) untill a month after the debtor signed it.

Unfortunately they didn't give me the location of the specific regulation but i have requested it and when i have it i will post it.

 

 

Regards

Peter

 

Oh I see!

 

I know this has been covered, but can you point me in the direction of what is/isn't a cancellable agreement as I need to know whether an agreement I have should have the cancellation statement on it..

[Peterbard]

Hmm!

 

What about an application form that states-

"YOUR RIGHT TO CANCEL

once you have signed this agreement (application form) you will have for a short time a right to cancel it. Exact details of how and when you can do this will be sent to you by post".

Surely, is the application form states the above, by the time you receive the details, it would be too late!?

Also in the case of a 2001 internet application, the above would not apply due to the creditor having to send a right to cancel notice separately! but one has signed a slip or form with a Your Right to Cancel box already on it.

 

AC

 

Hi ac

 

Why would an application form give you a right to cancell you have not commited yourself to anything.

If it says you have a right to cncell then it is avoiding section 59 as it gives the ability to cancell.

If you read my post again it says give any scope for cancellation.

 

 

Regards

Peter

[davey77]

This is the CCA reply from Barclays i had: I am satisfied that it is a properly executed agreement and not an apllication form as many others are sneding me at the moment but I wonder if i could use this section 59 aspect to query it's legality? What do you guys/girls think?

 

It's a Barclays loan via post (not branch) from July 2006:

 

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t42/davey77_2007/barclays2.jpg

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t42/davey77_2007/barclays1.jpg

[Peterbard]

Oh I see!

 

I know this has been covered, but can you point me in the direction of what is/isn't a cancellable agreement as I need to know whether an agreement I have should have the cancellation statement on it..

 

Hi

A cancellable agreement is one where anticedent negociations (Discussions face to face with the creditor)have taken place prior to the agrement being signed by the debtor away from the creditors premises.

Also in the case of an agreement taken out under the distance marketing regs any agreement that is entered into with no physical contactt with the creditor is cancellable for a petiod of 14 Days.

Agreements signed on creditors premises are none cancellable.

I also discovered recenty that if you pick up your unexecuted agreement from your creditors premises even though you have not talked to any staff the agreement is considered as have had anicecatn negocioations and is therfore cancellable.

Untill discovering the facts about section 59 it was assumed (by me anyway) that the cnsellation rights that were afforded to distance applications for say credit cards before the distance marketing act came into place were voluntarry,it now seems they had no choice as section 59 would have made them void otherwise.

There is a good but slightly dated guide to cancellation an the oft websight that is worth a look.

 

Regards

Peter

[un1boy]

Hi

A cancellable agreement is one where anticedent negociations (Discussions face to face with the creditor)have taken place prior to the agrement being signed by the debtor away from the creditors premises.

Also in the case of an agreement taken out under the distance marketing regs any agreement that is entered into with no physical contactt with the creditor is cancellable for a petiod of 14 Days.

Agreements signed on creditors premises are none cancellable.

I also discovered recenty that if you pick up your unexecuted agreement from your creditors premises even though you have not talked to any staff the agreement is considered as have had anicecatn negocioations and is therfore cancellable.

Untill discovering the facts about section 59 it was assumed (by me anyway) that the cnsellation rights that were afforded to distance applications for say credit cards before the distance marketing act came into place were voluntarry,it now seems they had no choice as section 59 would have made them void otherwise.

There is a good but slightly dated guide to cancellation an the oft websight that is worth a look.

 

Regards

Peter

 

Cheers mate.

 

so, if an agreement that I got for an Egg credit card in October 2004 has no cancellation statement statement, is this enforcable?

[Peterbard]

This is the CCA reply from Barclays i had: I am satisfied that it is a properly executed agreement and not an apllication form as many others are sneding me at the moment but I wonder if i could use this section 59 aspect to query it's legality? What do you guys/girls think?

 

It's a Barclays loan via post (not branch) from July 2006:

 

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t42/davey77_2007/barclays2.jpg

http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t42/davey77_2007/barclays1.jpg

 

Hi

No

I am afraid since you were the last to sign the agreement section 59 would not apply as it would be executed at the moment of your signature not a future agreement.

However was there no discussion about this agreement prior to you being sent it if so it should be cancellable and it would be worth looking into whether the fact that it was sent by your bandk would be classed as anticedant degociations in which case it would also be cancellable.

I know that if you pick up a blank agreement from your bank and the send it in, it is regarded as cancellable

 

Regards

 

Peter

[Peterbard]

Cheers mate.

 

so, if an agreement that I got for an Egg credit card in October 2004 has no cancellation statement statement, is this enforcable?

HI

Steady

Firstly a cancellation statement is not a prescribed term so it would not automatically makeit unenforceable under127(3)

 

If however you should have recieved cancellation details in copy 2 of your agreement and you didnt then there are grounds for the agreement being declared unenforceable under 127(4).

 

If you signed the agreement first and there is no means of cancellation given then you could claim IMO that the agreement was void under section 59.

 

You would be a pioneer as far as i am aware.

 

Regards

Peter

[un1boy]

HI

Steady

Firstly a cancellation statement is not a prescribed term so it would not automatically makeit unenforceable under127(3)

 

If however you should have recieved cancellation details in copy 2 of your agreement and you didnt then there are grounds for the agreement being declared unenforceable under 127(4).

 

If you signed the agreement first and there is no means of cancellation given then you could claim IMO that the agreement was void under section 59.

 

You would be a pioneer as far as i am aware.

 

Regards

Peter

 

Well Peter, I'll PM you my email address and see what we can come up with!

[maybelline]

Either the OFT have sh-t out or they are totally incumbasant to the law.Section 85(1) quite clearly states that each time a new credit token is issued then a new agrreement has to be signed as well.It is ironic in two ways that the CC companys have got away with this for the last 30 years and a poster on a forum has what in my opinion has opened up a can of worms and most proberly the biggest loophole in the act.Barclaycard, Egg, MBNA eat your hearts out coz the terminator is after yer.

 

 

thanks for the link - GE - they havent changed my sub prime rate for 10 years!! its about seven points over base rate.

OFT demands credit card retreat from GE Capital-Business-Industry Sectors-Banking & Finance-TimesOnline

 

this is the one I think, I'm commenting on the bit about how GE do not lower their rates

[ladybird17]

Hold on Term....S85 doesn't say anything about a new agreement being signed?

[angry cat]

Hi ac

 

Why would an application form give you a right to cancell you have not commited yourself to anything.

If it says you have a right to cncell then it is avoiding section 59 as it gives the ability to cancell.

If you read my post again it says give any scope for cancellation.

 

 

Regards

Peter

 

Yes, why would an application for a credit card have a very small box:-

(because they were obviously attempting to double up the application as an agreement)

 

"YOUR RIGHT TO CANCEL

ONCE YOU HAVE SIGNED THIS AGREEMENT YOU HAVE FOR A SHORT TIME A RIGHT TO CANCEL. EXACT DETAILS OF HOW AND WHEN YOU MAY DO THIS WILL BE SENT TO YOU BY POST BY THE BANK.

 

The above is stated on a year 2000 application form, the copy is very faded but I can still just about read it.

The form is not pre-signed by the creditor because it is an application for credit.

 

If my memory serves me correctly, this is one of those companies that were sending out soliciting letters to persons with good credit, I believe that they obtained my name from an airline frequent flyer membership The letter stated that you have been pre-approved and all that you have to do is to fill out the application form adding your employment etc. Remember that in 1999/2000 the banks were really doing the big sell on credit cards!!!

 

However, at the end of the day, it is an application form.

 

With regards to un1boy's query re egg. All eggs applications were on-line.

Therefore, I believe that there were no cancellation rights, even though their 2001 agreement also states-

"YOUR RIGHT TO CANCEL

ONCE YOU HAVE SIGNED THIS AGREEMENT YOU HAVE FOR A SHORT TIME A RIGHT TO CANCEL. EXACT DETAILS OF HOW AND WHEN YOU MAY DO THIS WILL BE SENT TO YOU BY POST BY THE BANK".

 

However the cancellation rights on an internet application/agreement would have had to be sent separately by post.

plus I note that generally eggs agreements are pre -signed by the creditor

 

correct me if I am wrong.

 

AC

[un1boy]

Yes, why would an application for a credit card have a very small box:-

(because they were obviously attempting to double up the application as an agreement)

 

"YOUR RIGHT TO CANCEL

ONCE YOU HAVE SIGNED THIS AGREEMENT YOU HAVE FOR A SHORT TIME A RIGHT TO CANCEL. EXACT DETAILS OF HOW AND WHEN YOU MAY DO THIS WILL BE SENT TO YOU BY POST BY THE BANK.

 

The above is stated on a year 2000 application form, the copy is very faded but I can still just about read it.

The form is not pre-signed by the creditor because it is an application for credit.

 

If my memory serves me correctly, this is one of those companies that were sending out soliciting letters to persons with good credit, I believe that they obtained my name from an airline frequent flyer membership The letter stated that you have been pre-approved and all that you have to do is to fill out the application form adding your employment etc. Remember that in 1999/2000 the banks were really doing the big sell on credit cards!!!

 

However, at the end of the day, it is an application form.

 

With regards to un1boy's query re egg. All eggs applications were on-line.

Therefore, I believe that there were no cancellation rights, even though their 2001 agreement also states-

"YOUR RIGHT TO CANCEL

ONCE YOU HAVE SIGNED THIS AGREEMENT YOU HAVE FOR A SHORT TIME A RIGHT TO CANCEL. EXACT DETAILS OF HOW AND WHEN YOU MAY DO THIS WILL BE SENT TO YOU BY POST BY THE BANK".

 

However the cancellation rights on an internet application/agreement would have had to be sent separately by post.

plus I note that generally eggs agreements are pre -signed by the creditor

 

correct me if I am wrong.

 

AC

 

Thanks AC.....

 

What if they didn't send the cancellation notice seperately?

[davefirewalker]

I'm in the same boat with mbna...

 

they signed first, I signed last (a day later)

 

they sent me a copy agreement, but no seperate cancelation rights....

 

just waiting for the sar to make sure

 

Dave

[un1boy]

I'm in the same boat with mbna...

 

they signed first, I signed last (a day later)

 

they sent me a copy agreement, but no seperate cancelation rights....

 

just waiting for the S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) to make sure

 

Dave

 

Well they didn't supply them as part of my sar with Egg, so what implications does that have??

[ladybird17]

it doesn't, because a SAR is providing information they hold about you personally and your accounts - cancellation rights would only refer to a CCA

[un1boy]

it doesn't, because a S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) is providing information they hold about you personally and your accounts - cancellation rights would only refer to a CCA

 

Well I'm just gonna do that now.

 

What happens if they don't send them?

[ladybird17]

12 working days (+ 2 for posting) and they are in default a further calendar month and they've committed an offence.

[un1boy]

Thanks Ladybird!