Cap1 & CCA return

[InKogneeToh]

Hi

 

Quote from Fantasy Charges link re: new 'service charge' argument:

 

HSBC has revamped the terms and conditions on its overdrafts, arguing that it now charges customers "service fees" on their overdrafts, not penalty charges. It argues the overdraft constitutes a service and must be agreed by the customer every year.

 

I agree an arranged overdraft 'may' be classed as a service and a one off fee per annum could be justified.

 

However, are they really trying to say that by allowing DD's, cheques etc. to go through when the transactions would take us over-limit, they are providing a service??

 

If this is now a service, should we not be able to choose not to accept this 'service', so if the transaction would take us over our agreed limit then it doesn't go through - full stop!?

 

I'm certain that this could be facilitated because they already let some transactions through and not others.

 

Oh - but it would mean that they would lose all that extra lovely lolly wouldn't it - silly me!!!

 

Regards, Pam

[Guest The Terminator]

Director General of Fair Trading v. First National Bank [2001] UKHL 52 (25th October, 2001)

 

Just dug up this piece of case law.Very intersting.

[Professor Fate]

Hello everyone, it is nice to see like minded people out there locking horns with the banks and credit card companies. I have been at war with MBNA, LloydsTSB and my personal favourite Amex for a long time.

 

I had no idea there were others out there doing the same , especially research in the CCA and unfair contract term regulations 1999. All my fav bedtime reading (I must be sad).

 

I have a question for Battleaxe (or anyone else) regarding your S85 tactic I can find no reference that you can claim back interest on any account even if they have failed to comply with S85. You might be able to claim back charges regardless using the penalty clause, but nothing more.

 

Also, is a non complaince with S85 or S77-S79 civil or criminal?

 

The morons from Amex served a statutory demand on me last week, which I intend to set aside. Have already responded as they have failed to comply with a S78 over a year ago. Havnt paid them anything now for over two years and dont intend to either. They have no judegment or order of the court for the amount they claim.

 

Anyone else come up against a STAT for a credit card debt?\

[Guest The Terminator]

Hello everyone, it is nice to see like minded people out there locking horns with the banks and credit card companies. I have been at war with MBNA, LloydsTSB and my personal favourite Amex for a long time.

 

 

I have a question for Battleaxe (or anyone else) regarding your S85 tactic I can find no reference that you can claim back interest on any account even if they have failed to comply with S85. You might be able to claim back charges regardless using the penalty clause, but nothing more.

 

Also, is a non complaince with S85 or S77-S79 civil or criminal?

 

 

Professor welcome to the thread.Under S85 the creditor has a duty to provide a true copy of the executed agreement when issuing a new card.

 

85 Duty on issue of new credit-tokens

 

(1) Whenever, in connection with a credit-token agreement, a credit-token (other than the first) is given by the creditor to the debtor, the creditor shall give the debtor a copy of the executed agreement (if any) and of any other document referred to in it.

 

(2) If the creditor fails to comply with this section—

 

(a) he is not entitled, while the default continues, to enforce the agreement; and

 

(b) if the default continues for one month he commits an offence.

 

 

(3) This section does not apply to a small agreement.

 

 

The part I beleive you are refering to is (2) above which is straight forward.To put it simply all the time the creditor is in default he cannot profit from the agreement or enforce it.We have been debating and researching this for the last 6months and as this doe's not refer to any other section of the act this is a section on it's own.In answer to your final question it is a civil offence.

[Mike220359]

Hello everyone, it is nice to see like minded people out there locking horns with the banks and credit card companies. I have been at war with MBNA, LloydsTSB and my personal favourite Amex for a long time.

 

I had no idea there were others out there doing the same , especially research in the CCA and unfair contract term regulations 1999. All my fav bedtime reading (I must be sad).

 

I have a question for Battleaxe (or anyone else) regarding your S85 tactic I can find no reference that you can claim back interest on any account even if they have failed to comply with S85. You might be able to claim back charges regardless using the penalty clause, but nothing more.

 

Also, is a non complaince with S85 or S77-S79 civil or criminal?

 

The morons from Amex served a statutory demand on me last week, which I intend to set aside. Have already responded as they have failed to comply with a S78 over a year ago. Havnt paid them anything now for over two years and dont intend to either. They have no judegment or order of the court for the amount they claim.

 

Anyone else come up against a STAT for a credit card debt?\

 

This is a dramatic turn in the tactics used by the MIB, however, also a very foolhardy one since it is easily set aside if they have not complied with a stautory requirment or established court direction. It seems very much like hot air, and just a tool to re-establish dialogue between you and your creditor.

 

Where are u based PF, seems a little late in the day to find out about this site? Forgive my inquisitivness but the MIB have tried to manipulate threads before, and the timing of this enquiry at this stage of the thread seems odd.

 

Mike

[Professor Fate]

Thanks for the response Terminator.

 

I agree that s85 ptII is clear cut, but where does it mention in the CCA or other legislation that if they are in breach that they cannot profit from it by interest accured?

[un1boy]

Thanks for the response Terminator.

 

I agree that s85 ptII is clear cut, but where does it mention in the CCA or other legislation that if they are in breach that they cannot profit from it by interest accured?

 

Professor, they are not allowed to profit at all, full stop.

 

the main way they profit from the account is by charging you interest - therefore, all interest should be refunded.....

[Professor Fate]

Hi Mike, I am in the big smoke and on my way to the High Court Of Justice on the Tuesday next week to apply to have it set aside.

 

No I am no MIB, but I have heard rumours that MIB were moving up a gear towards those who resist. It seems the rumours are true. It would not suprise me if other CC companies and banks follow suit.

 

How you mean a bit late in the day?

[InKogneeToh]

Thanks for the response Terminator.

 

I agree that s85 ptII is clear cut, but where does it mention in the CCA or other legislation that if they are in breach that they cannot profit from it by interest accured?

 

Hi

 

I would also be interested in the source of this information. What case law or legislation states that a creditor may not profit when in default?

 

Regards, Pam

[un1boy]

Hi Mike, I am in the big smoke and on my way to the High Court Of Justice on the Tuesday next week to apply to have it set aside.

 

No I am no MIB, but I have heard rumours that MIB were moving up a gear towards those who resist. It seems the rumours are true. It would not suprise me if other CC companies and banks follow suit.

 

How you mean a bit late in the day?

 

Professor, I don't understand your last post -can u explain please?

[Professor Fate]

I have been looking at this the last few days in my spare time after seeing the s85. I still cant find anything relevant to it.

 

AFAIK the ability to charge interest would be stated in the agreement. And under what circumstance. THe right to have interest reclaimed from the breach under an agreement would have to be taken up under each case from that agreement generally headed Responsibilities Under This Contract etc. Normally it only deals with legal fees etc.

[Professor Fate]

Professor, I don't understand your last post -can u explain please?

 

I live In London (the big smoke). I have to go to the High Court next week to get my STAT demand from Amex set aside.

 

Sorry if I wasnt more clear, its late in the day and im getting tired ;-)

[un1boy]

I live In London (the big smoke). I have to go to the High Court next week to get my STAT demand from Amex set aside.

 

Sorry if I wasnt more clear, its late in the day and im getting tired ;-)

 

Ah, ok - thanks for clarifying it up!!

[Guest The Terminator]

Hi

 

I would also be interested in the source of this information. What case law or legislation states that a creditor may not profit when in default?

 

Regards, Pam

 

Pam:

 

(2) If the creditor fails to comply with this section—

(a) he is not entitled, while the default continues, to enforce the agreement; and

It's all there in S85 2(a)

Term.

[InKogneeToh]

Pam:

 

(2) If the creditor fails to comply with this section—

 

(a) he is not entitled, while the default continues, to enforce the agreement; and

 

It's all there in S85 2(a)

 

Term.

 

Hi Term

 

Yes, but I have already had 2 judges tell me that 'to enforce' means to sue under the agreement or take any other steps to make you pay, e.g. enforce any security given. So they are not entitled to do this - but where does it say we can claim interest back?

 

Regards, Pam

[Professor Fate]

Enforce to me means, default, court action etc to reclaim the debt and get you to pay it. I can see where you are going with this but its very much open to interpretation.

[meagain]

Just spotted this, and think it may be relevant to quite a few people.

 

The CCA does not cover the current account but an overdraft does fall under the CCA. However, overdrafts are exempt from the agreement regulations and so there is no regulated agreement drawn up as in the usual sense.

 

For the avoidance of doubt, chapter and verse on this please?

 

Enforce to me means, default, court action etc to reclaim the debt and get you to pay it. I can see where you are going with this but its very much open to interpretation.

 

As I understand it, "enforcing the agreement" means doing anything to make the other side adhere to the relevant terms, whether this is going to court, or making threatening demands.

 

Oh, and while we're on the subject of offences, I believe the offences under SS77-79 and S85 are Level 3 or 4, meaning a maximum fine of £1000 or £2500 respectively. When they're making profits of £35billion pa, is it any wonder they don't care?

[m55dlc]

Hi Professor

 

What part of London are you from? I hope you don't mind me asking afew (ahem) security questions before we go on.

 

You mention stat demand, and the high court. So, I take from that the inference you are in the profession?

[m55dlc]

We are on the 15th March, you joined in march, this has 218 pages and you make your first post on this thread. We're going to need some convincing you're on the level

[Fullyskinted]

Just spotted this, and think it may be relevant to quite a few people.

 

As I understand it, "enforcing the agreement" means doing anything to make the other side adhere to the relevant terms, whether this is going to court, or making threatening demands.

 

Oh, and while we're on the subject of offences, I believe the offences under SS77-79 and S85 are Level 3 or 4, meaning a maximum fine of £1000 or £2500 respectively. When they're making profits of £35billion pa, is it any wonder they don't care?

 

Yeh that smy thoughts on it too.

 

Look at it like this - a policeman enforces the law. You have to obide by the law or you get knicked!

 

So if youre saying that an agreement can not be enforced (unenforceable) it means (to me at least) that the 'rules' by which it is made up of are no longer valid.

[m55dlc]

Oh, and by the way, if you're in default, how can you apply interest? The answer is on this thread somewhere, and I have the post number written down in my little notebook. If you we're genuine and had read the thread, you would have known that.

[m55dlc]

Oh, and if there is a fine of £2.5k for every attempt to enforce an agreement that is in default (every phone call, every letter) these CCP will be filing for bankruptcy within the week. I've got five messages on my answering machine and about 50 statements asking for payment and a further fistful of letters from them. At £2.5k a throw that means they're due a fine of £150k just from my account!

[Guest The Terminator]

Professor: Quick question.When you go to the Court of Justice which divison is your case being heard in.

[un1boy]

M55 who prosecutes them tho?

 

Trading Standards have told me that I need to take legal action.

 

My local chief constable said they are looking into the points I've raised and will get back to me.....not very hopeful with their reply, but we will see....

[InKogneeToh]

Oh, and by the way, if you're in default, how can you apply interest? The answer is on this thread somewhere, and I have the post number written down in my little notebook. If you we're genuine and had read the thread, you would have known that.

 

Hi m55

 

I am genuine and have read all the thread upside down and inside out, but can't remember seeing any case law/precedent/legislation that specifies this!

 

Regards, Pam