Cap1 & CCA return

[bfb]

is "accept squiggle S/2 " to be interpreted as a signature from the lender?

 

if so the suggestion of that is that the paperwork was an offer by you - rather than an agreement to be validated by the lender

 

accept what by whom for what purpose and when?

 

accept the offer of a night out from one employee to another?

 

where in the Act is there provision for execution by doodle?

[Seahorse]

where in the Act is there provision for execution by doodle?

 

ROFLMAO

[Peterbard]

Hi, sorry to interrupt, but didn't think my question needed a dedicated thread.

 

Does the Consumer Credit Act apply to bank accounts? i.e i owe Barclays 1000 (overdraft which they closed) and they have passed the debt to Scotcall, so i sent a CCA to them, is this in error?

JHi Yes your overdraft is covered by the CCa1974 although yuour bank account is not it is regulated by the fsa.

Although they are not compellled to send and agreement for your overdraft re section 74 i currently am trying to use the section 77 request to get a copy of the main agreement on the grounds that it forms a multi agreement part of whichi s the overdraft.

 

sorry it sounds convoluted bbut that is the way it is

 

Peter

[sortingitout]

JHi Yes your overdraft is covered by the CCa1974 although yuour bank account is not it is regulated by the fsa.

Although they are not compellled to send and agreement for your overdraft re section 74 i currently am trying to use the section 77 request to get a copy of the main agreement on the grounds that it forms a multi agreement part of whichi s the overdraft.

 

sorry it sounds convoluted bbut that is the way it is

 

Peter

 

So to confirm, Scotcall do need to comply with my CCA request, but if passed back to the original bank they don't?:?

[progenic7]

Hi all

 

i have just joined this thread after cornicopia lead me here by the scruff of the neck :o

not even going to attempt to start at the begining but im trying to make sense of what i can see over the last few pages.

Damn this issue is deep huh

[FANTASY CHARGES]

 

Thought I would share this with you, if you haven't already seen it.

 

Arrangement Fees..unlawful charges by another name

 

it was probably hidden in here

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/hsbc-bank/50391-december-1st-hsbc-has.html

 

i just spotted it in the sunday mail --someone picked up on it straight away in december on the thread --- it took the mail over 3 months to twig it !!! well done anyhow

 

thanks anyhow ( we only bought the paper for the dvd )

 

[Guest The Terminator]

Update: Had a letter on the mat tonight from the assistant vice- president of MBNA basically saying their right and we are wrong.No mention whatsoever of S85(including the default notice or the LBA) but they did act on my account's in accordance with their T&C and if I am still dissatisfied with the response complain to the FSA.Well Mr vice-president of MBUSA or Bank of America or who the hell you call yourselves nowadays.Perhap you should rebrand yourselves and become the Bank of Toytown which would be appropriate for you.Of course i'm going to complain to the FSA and it doesn't stop there.Let's see how your T&C hold up in court along with the default under S85,then of course there's the Harrassment,Malicious Communications.A'int looking to good for you is it Stu!!

[tamadus]

My copy of the cca doesn't say or send a copy just give.

 

I would not doubt your belief in what you did but is from my experiance and aquired knowledge not possible to to enter into a re mortgage or loan secured on property without an interview with the supplier or his agent.

 

To go further such an arangement would leave the agreement open to challenge due to FSA rules.

Peter

 

I hate to say this Peter but I have twice completed house purchases and mortgages with no face to face contact. All done totally by mail and telephone.

 

Wondering now if I should drag those mortgages out and get them declared unenforceable

[tamadus]

Would it be too much to ask if egos could be put back in the box so the rest of us can follow the thread without getting caught up in petty squabbles? It's confusing at the best of times without that getting in the way.

 

If somebody has something to add, could they just make the point, expand as necessary, and leave it at that. And I, for one, find it nigh on impossible to understand threads that state something that may be perfectly understandable to the poster who posts a "nod and a wink" to something, then leaves it up to us mere mortals to work out what the feck he was on about.

 

Rant over. I'll pick up my toys now.

 

I'm in total agreement Seahorse.

 

Recently I haven't posted much as I have been trying to settle a few outstanding matters of my own, or at least to progress them. BUT I have been reading every post and to be honest we need to get back to the matter in hand.

 

Until such time as we have finished and got a court ruling over the enforceability of credit agreements where cc/ loans etc are concerned, secured loans on land and houses are not really on thread.

 

I continually get PM from people who need advice and simply dont have the time to go through over 200 pages looking for what they need. I also regularly see questions posed in here which seem to get a reply about 3 pages later. Please let's get back to what we have been doing so well, namely analysing the CCA and finding joint methods of combating the CCP who continue to blatanly ignore it.

 

We are always going to have differences of opinion, so let's try and sort those out in PM and come back in here with a united front. We KNOW the MIB are monitoring CAG and this thread in particular. We scared the life out of most of them in the first 100 pages, lets show we mean business in the next 100.

 

We are not the enemy in this the CCP's are.

 

Tam

[tamadus]

Thats just the point-

 

MS did not comply, they have not provided me with a true copy of the executed agreement...all that I was sent...eventually months later was a copy of the T&C's but the wrong issue date, plus a 2006 generic mailer which I have never be sent...Huh? Apparently, now they wish to use "Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices) & Copy of Docs. Regulation 1983 reg 3 as a reason for their alleged compliance.

Meaning that there does not have to be a signature and that by just sending the T&C's is sufficient!!!!?

 

AC

 

section 3 of SI 1983 (1557) does in fact allow them to leave out signatures on copies of agreements sent under any section of the CCA. Whatever they send must still be a true copy of the agreement, with your details on it. The T&C are another document that is normally mentioned in the agreement and so a copy of those must also be sent.

 

It seems of late the CCP's are also relying on sec 7/8 of SI 1983 (1557) which allows them to send the latest copy of T&C as the original has been varied. The exact words tend to indicate that's ok but the variation can only exist if it's allowed in the original so you also need a copy of those T&C.

[m55dlc]

Update: Had a letter on the mat tonight from the assistant vice- president of MBNA basically saying their right and we are wrong.No mention whatsoever of S85(including the default notice or the LBA) but they did act on my account's in accordance with their T&C and if I am still dissatisfied with the response complain to the FSA.Well Mr vice-president of MBUSA or Bank of America or who the hell you call yourselves nowadays.Perhap you should rebrand yourselves and become the Bank of Toytown which would be appropriate for you.Of course i'm going to complain to the FSA and it doesn't stop there.Let's see how your T&C hold up in court along with the default under S85,then of course there's the Harrassment,Malicious Communications.A'int looking to good for you is it Stu!!

 

If I get the same response tomorrow from them I am going to politely tell them that I want to know rhyme and reason 100% exactly how they believe they are in the right (as they absolutely 100% cannot state that they are) otherwise I file. They cannot.

 

I'm going to tell them of my email plans....... lets see how they react to thousands upon thousands of people filing s78 requests and s85 defaults.... No going back on this one, no going back

[tamadus]

So to confirm, Scotcall do need to comply with my CCA request, but if passed back to the original bank they don't?:?

 

Sorting your not strictly on the right path.

 

The overdraft part of the bank account is covered under the CCA BUT there will not be a formal agreement for the overdraft. Its a flexible assumed agreement, which operates that way because of the timespan it covers. In theory an overdraft will be repaid as soon as funds are deposited so there is no formal period of repayment.

 

Peter is saying that the account and overdraft form a multiple agreement so a copy of the bank account agreement (which will include overdraft 'rules') should be supplied. This of course is still in the early stages of being experimental.

 

Making a CCA sec 77/78 request where a bank account or overdraft is involved will NOT produce a copy of the regulated credit agreement.

[m55dlc]

section 3 of SI 1983 (1557) does in fact allow them to leave out signatures on copies of agreements sent under any section of the CCA. Whatever they send must still be a true copy of the agreement, with your details on it. The T&C are another document that is normally mentioned in the agreement and so a copy of those must also be sent.

 

It seems of late the CCP's are also relying on sec 7/8 of SI 1983 (1557) which allows them to send the latest copy of T&C as the original has been varied. The exact words tend to indicate that's ok but the variation can only exist if it's allowed in the original so you also need a copy of those T&C.

 

And just to add NONE of the SI's regarding signatures and T&C's allow CCPs to comply with the CCA 1974 IF THEY DO NOT HOLD AN EXECUTED AGREEMENT. No executed agreement = default under the act, which means NO INTEREST can be applied and NO CHARGES can be applied.

 

Just psyching myself up for the letter I know I'm going to have in the post tomorrow......

[tamadus]

And just to add NONE of the SI's regarding signatures and T&C's allow CCPs to comply with the CCA 1974 IF THEY DO NOT HOLD AN EXECUTED AGREEMENT. No executed agreement = default under the act, which means NO INTEREST can be applied and NO CHARGES can be applied.

 

Just psyching myself up for the letter I know I'm going to have in the post tomorrow......

 

I agree M55 but how quickly and how often are they going to admit they don't have a properly executed agreement ?

 

I have been arguing with Barclaycard for well over 6 months now, not paid them a penny, yet they keep insisting they are right and I am wrong. Of course 4 weeks to answer an email doesnt help their case lol

 

On the occasions they have set their pet DCA loose, I have written back sharply and rapped their knuckles and they have backed away.

 

It's obvious they don't have any form of agreement that will stand up but they continue to clutch at straws hoping I'll give in to them.

 

 

NO WAY JOSE!!!!

[zubo]

And just to add NONE of the SI's regarding signatures and T&C's allow CCPs to comply with the CCA 1974 IF THEY DO NOT HOLD AN EXECUTED AGREEMENT. No executed agreement = default under the act, from the outset of the unenforceable agreement which means NO INTEREST can be applied and NO CHARGES can be applied. from the outset of the unenforceable agreement

 

Just psyching myself up for the letter I know I'm going to have in the post tomorrow......

 

Z:-D

[FANTASY CHARGES]

62 Duty to supply copy of unexecuted agreement

(1) If the unexecuted agreement is presented personally to the debtor or hirer for his signature, but on the occasion when he signs it the document does not become an executed agreement, a copy of it, and of any other document referred to in it, must be there and then delivered to him.

(2) If the unexecuted agreement is sent to the debtor or hirer for his signature, a copy of it, and of any other document referred to in it, must be sent to him at the same time.

(3) A regulated agreement is not properly executed if the requirements of this section are not observed.

 

 

63 Duty to supply copy of executed agreement

(1) If the unexecuted agreement is presented personally to the debtor or hirer for his signature, and on the occasion when he signs it the document becomes an executed agreement, a copy of the executed agreement, and of any other document referred to in it, must be there and then delivered to him.

(2) A copy of the executed agreement, and of any other document referred to in it, must be given to the debtor or hirer within the seven days following the making of the agreement unless—

(a) subsection (1) applies, or

(b) the unexecuted agreement was sent to the debtor or hirer for his signature and, on the occasion of his signing it, the document became an executed agreement.

(3) In the case of a cancellable agreement, a copy under subsection (2) must be sent by post.

(4) In the case of a credit-token agreement, a copy under subsection (2) need not be given within the seven days following the making of the agreement if it is given before or at the time when the credit-token is given to the debtor.

(5) A regulated agreement is not properly executed if the requirements of this section are not observed.

 

 

64 Duty to give notice of cancellation rights

(1) In the case of a cancellable agreement, a notice in the prescribed form indicating the right of the debtor or hirer to cancel the agreement, how and when that right is exercisable, and the name and address of a person to whom notice of cancellation may be given,—

(a) must be included in every copy given to the debtor or hirer under section 62 or 63, and

(b) except where section 63(2) applied, must also be sent by post to the debtor or hirer within the seven days following the making of the agreement.

(2) In the case of a credit-token agreement, a notice under subsection (1)(b) need not be sent by post within the seven days following the making of the agreement if either—

(a) it is sent by post to the debtor or hirer before the credit-token is given to him, or

(b) it is sent by post to him together with the credit-token.

(3) Regulations may provide that except where section 63(2) applied a notice sent under subsection (1)(b) shall be accompanied by a further copy of the executed agreement, and of any other document referred to in it.

(4) Regulations may provide that subsection (1)(b) is not to apply in the case of agreements such as are described in the regulations, being agreements made by a particular person, if—

(a) on an application by that person to the Director, the Director has determined that, having regard to—

(i) the manner in which antecedent negotiations for agreements with the applicant of that description are conducted, and

(ii) the information provided to debtors or hirers before such agreements are made,

the requirement imposed by subsection (1)(b) can be dispensed with without prejudicing the interests of debtors or hirers; and

(b) any conditions imposed by the Director in making the determination are complied with.

(5) A cancellable agreement is not properly executed if the requirements of this section are not observed.

================================

.

Have just quoted section 62-63-64 so we can see what we are talking about

 

======================================

 

Ok these modern issuers of credit card say these application forms are the agreement -- lets go along with that idea for the minute

Now this application form in front of me thinks according to the words on it that it is an agreement . yes we will call it an unsigned agreement until i sign it

 

 

On it Just above the box to sign is a box

 

YOUR RIGHT TO CANCEL

Once you have signed the agreement you will have for a short time a right to cancel it . Exact details of how and when you can do this will be sent to you by post by the creditor.

 

Looking at 64b I sign the form “sit on it for a couple of days” then post it

 

Now the credit card company

Can

(A) say when I sign the form then the agreement is made

 

(b) after the successful credit cheque the agreement is made on the day of the credit check although i will normally not know what date that was

So what does sent mean (does that mean if we look at the envelope and the see a late postmark) we have the chance of a

Now I’ve just looked at the t & c (when you get the card) and there are no mention of the actual duration that you have a right to cancel

Try it for yourself

 

 

you know we never get the exact details

so the bit in red applies ???

 

A cancellable agreement is not properly executed if the requirements of this section are not observed.

[Guest Battleaxe]

 

I have been asked to post this over here to see what the minds on this site think.

 

I have loaded it exactly as it was emailed to me. i tried to blow it up for legibility, but it doesn't work.

 

Question - from the state of it, would you say it is a properly executed agreement from MBNA?

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/mbna/72811-mbna-properly-executed-agreements-3.html#post640286

 

Can you post your opinion over on the above forum

[zubo]

 

I have been asked to post this over here to see what the minds on this site think.

 

I have loaded it exactly as it was emailed to me. i tried to blow it up for legibility, but it doesn't work.

 

Question - from the state of it, would you say it is a properly executed agreement from MBNA?

 

BA

 

I think that is the word, IF, and you need to ask the recipient to answer the question honestly, the recipient cannot read ALL the T&C then it is illegible and must be returned as such with a request to FULLY comply with the Act.

 

Z

[Guest Battleaxe]

Thanks for this Zubo, I have posted your reply over on the other forum for the inquirer.

[m55dlc]

Oh, and it isn't signed by MBNA as it looks like mine. Oh, and in the middle bit of the signed side of the application, it mentions the word application 3 times, one of which is to allow processing of the application outside of the UK (in the US). It isn't signed by them and therefore it isn't executed therefore they HAVE NOT COMPLIED with the CCA 1974 and it is in breach of s85

[FANTASY CHARGES]

jUSt A QUICKIE views please ''''''

 

 

when we complain to trading standards about our treatment can we complain to the branch say where barclays are based eg northampton then if we all focus on then (their work load ..... expansion of the unit etc to mirror image the county court at northampton etc ) the trading standards will get wise a lot quicker ---

 

views appreciated quickly on this one?e

[carderuk]

Waste of time if you live near Sheffield. Doing feck all for me with the Halifax. We got better things to do. Halifax has been in default of cca 77 & 78 since July 2006. their own words first we have heard about them, going to have a hard job satisfying my boss it going to worth going after them

[tamadus]

The main point here I think is the legibility, the act and regulations state it should be clearly legible which allowing for reposting of it this clearly isnt.

[angry cat]

Hopefully the following will assist-

 

"Dear AC

I am writing further to your letter dated 13 December 2006.

 

I am pleased to enclose a copy application as agreed in our letter dated 10 December 2006. Please accept my apologies for the delay in sending this information to you.

 

Gavin Theobald - Customer Advocates Office Manager MBNA".

 

The doc that was sent to me was the torn off bottom part of a MBNA credit card application form and it differs from the one posted by Battleaxe:-

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battleaxe

 

 

I have been asked to post this over here to see what the minds on this site think.

 

I have loaded it exactly as it was emailed to me. i tried to blow it up for legibility, but it doesn't work.

 

Question - from the state of it, would you say it is a properly executed agreement from MBNA? (end of quote)

 

The front of mine (AC) is entitled

SIGNATURE FORM and in very small print below is stated

CREDIT AGREEMENT REGULATED BY THE CONSUMER CREDIT ACT 1974

Issued by MBNA Europe Bank Limited

 

There are then three blocks of script

 

1 My name & address - Payment Protection Cover - box ticked

 

2 Important Data Protection - block script which has been signed and stamped by MBNA right through the first main block para. Then there are two boxes that I have ticked showing that I did not calls or emails about other products and services plus I did not wish to receive mail about their products and services.

 

To improve the quality of our service, we may monitor or record telephone calls.

 

Please issue an MBNA credit card to me. I confirm that the information given is true and complete. I have received a copy of and agree to be bound by the MBNA Credit Card Terms & Conditions and I understand that I am responsible for paying any balances due on my Credit Card Account. I consent to the data on this application being transferred to the USA for processing. This was in BOLD and I had not even noticed re part about "transferred to the USA for processing"

 

3. smal box...YOUR RIGHT TO CANCEL - oNCE YOU HAVE SIGNED THIS AGREEMENT YOU WILL HAVE A SHORT TIME A RIGHT TO CANCEL IT eXACT DETAILS OF HOW AND WHEN YOU CAN DO THIS WILL BE SENT BY POST.

 

My signature, date and then a further box-

 

Important - Data Protection - Additional Cardholder(s) only

this paer is blank as I was the sole cardholder

 

Personally I do not consider this to be a credit agreement at all plus the middle section is illegible due to the signature and large date stamp right through it.

 

The second part, which would have been the back is headed up as follows:-

 

FINANCIAL & RELATED CONDITIONS

For the MBNA Credit Card and Credit Card Cheques

 

IMPORTANT - YOU SHOULD READ THIS CAREFULLY - YOUR RIGHTS

 

The Consumer Credit Act 1974 covers this agreement and lays down certain requirements for your protection which must be satisfied when the Agreement is made. If they are not, the Bank cannot enforce the Agreement against you without a court order.

The Act also gives you a number of Rights. You have a right to settle this Agreement at any time by giving notice in writing and paying off all amounts payable under the Agreement. If you have received unsatisfactory goods and services under a Transaction financed by this Agreement, apart from any purchased out of a cash loan you may have the right to sue the supplier, Bank or both blah blah (ooh my PPI p[ayments were a transaction and that product was most unsatisfactory!!!)

 

The rest is set out in blocks or paras 1 - 15 which were some of the T&C's.

 

Sorry this post is so long but I thought that the info might prove useful.

Love

AC

[m55dlc]

If I have an agreement which states 'Instant credit can only be granted if the customer presents one of the cards opposite and pays by direct debit', therefore this requires a direct debit mandate to be signed. Is this enough of a reference to oblige them to produce the DD mandate under 'any other document' bit?