Cap1 & CCA return

[InKogneeToh]

Hi Pam we will start with this more to come.

1. 
   
2. 1.14 What is meant by ‘the prescribed terms’?

Reg 6(1) provides that the terms specified in Sch 6 to the Agreements Regulations are ‘prescribed terms’ for the purposes of s61(1)(a). The terms must be contained in a regulated agreement if it is to be properly executed.

The prescribed terms relate to the amount of credit, the credit limit, the rate of interest and repayments – see chapter 8.

If any of the prescribed terms is missing, or incorrect, the agreement is not enforceable against the debtor. The court is precluded by s127(3) from making an enforcement order in such cases – see Q1.21.

 

 

We will forward you your credit limit does not constitute including it in the agreement.

 

Peter

 

Peter - Please stop confusing people!!!

 

This is what the OFT says about how a credit limit must be shown:

 

3 The amount of credit to be provided under a fixed-sum agreement (for example, a cash loan) or particulars of the credit limit under a running-account agreement (for

example, a credit card).

 

The credit limit can be expressed as:

 

a a sum of money, or

 

b a statement that the trader will, under the agreement, periodically determine the credit limit and notify the customer, or

 

c a sum of money together with a statement that the trader may, under the agreement, periodically vary the credit limit and notify the customer, or

 

d if (a) (b) or © above are not appropriate either a statement indicating how the credit limit will be determined and notified to the customer or a statement that there is no credit limit.

 

Regards, Pam

[zubo]

Hi Pam we will start with this more to come.

1. 
   
2. 1.14 What is meant by ‘the prescribed terms’?

Reg 6(1) provides that the terms specified in Sch 6 to the Agreements Regulations are ‘prescribed terms’ for the purposes of s61(1)(a). The terms must be contained in a regulated agreement if it is to be properly executed.

The prescribed terms relate to the amount of credit, the credit limit, the rate of interest and repayments – see chapter 8.

If any of the prescribed terms is missing, or incorrect, the agreement is not enforceable against the debtor. The court is precluded by s127(3) from making an enforcement order in such cases – see Q1.21.

 

 

We will forward you your credit limit does not constitute including it in the agreement.

 

Peter

 

Sweet.

 

I'll keep count: 15 love.

[m55dlc]

I've just realised where all of the problems stem from with these yanks coming over here with their credit card companies. When they load in the agreements into their computers, Bill Gates puts squiggily green lines underneath all of the sentences that are not americanese and then suggests alternatives, so that those dumb ol' yanks can understand it!

 

(I'm not suggesting that the American people are thick, but the level of language required by the great people of the USA to pander to the perceived lowest common inteligence is really, really low. Hence the requirement of 'caution, HOT' to be put onto McD coffee cups, and whole passages in the instructions for new cars that cruise control DOES NOT steer the vehicle.....)

[Peterbard]

Nothing yet

 

Ok what about the "we will use credit scoring statement to asses your application.

 

Clue one the word application

 

Clue two This statement makes the agreement invalid.

 

More to come

 

Bet you can't wait.

 

RegsPeter:D

[zubo]

Peter - Please stop confusing people!!!

 

This is what the OFT says about how a credit limit must be shown:

 

3 The amount of credit to be provided under a fixed-sum agreement (for example, a cash loan) or particulars of the credit limit under a running-account agreement (for

example, a credit card).

 

The credit limit can be expressed as:

 

a a sum of money, or

 

b a statement that the trader will, under the agreement, periodically determine the credit limit and notify the customer, or

 

c a sum of money together with a statement that the trader may, under the agreement, periodically vary the credit limit and notify the customer, or

 

d if (a) (b) or © above are not appropriate either a statement indicating how the credit limit will be determined and notified to the customer or a statement that there is no credit limit.

 

Regards, Pam

 

errr

 

is this 15 all??

 

Guys - you are both quoting - but where from and why do they seemingly contradict each other????

 

confused Z

[zubo]

I've just realised where all of the problems stem from with these yanks coming over here with their credit card companies. When they load in the agreements into their computers, Bill Gates puts squiggily green lines underneath all of the sentences that are not americanese and then suggests alternatives, so that those dumb ol' yanks can understand it!

 

(I'm not suggesting that the American people are thick, but the level of language required by the great people of the USA to pander to the perceived lowest common inteligence is really, really low. Hence the requirement of 'caution, HOT' to be put onto McD coffee cups, and whole passages in the instructions for new cars that cruise control DOES NOT steer the vehicle.....)

 

yer now you might just 'ave summfink here m....

the number of times i've had to fix bugs in crappy us programs.... its no wonder they cannot respond to a cca78 request - its not in their workflow nor the program.... blo##y 'ell ... terms attack wiv 'is s85 'as brought the whole network to a standstill..... ooer

[Peterbard]

Hi Pam

what about the lack of those pesky cancellation rights.

 

Peter

[InKogneeToh]

errr

 

is this 15 all??

 

Guys - you are both quoting - but where from and why do they seemingly contradict each other????

 

confused Z

 

Hi

 

I don't know what Peter's quoting from?! Maybe he's writing his own version of the CCA!

 

If you download the OFT doc. from Post 2661 in the link below you can read what it says under the section 'What the agreement must contain'.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general/33174-consumer-credit-act-agreements-134.html

 

Regards, Pam

[InKogneeToh]

Hi Pam

what about the lack of those pesky cancellation rights.

 

Peter

 

Yes - that statement is there as well on the agreement - just above where he signed it!!

 

Regards, Pam

[Peterbard]

Peter - Please stop confusing people!!!

 

This is what the OFT says about how a credit limit must be shown:

 

3 The amount of credit to be provided under a fixed-sum agreement (for example, a cash loan) or particulars of the credit limit under a running-account agreement (for

example, a credit card).

 

The credit limit can be expressed as:

 

a a sum of money, or

 

b a statement that the trader will, under the agreement, periodically determine the credit limit and notify the customer, or

 

c a sum of money together with a statement that the trader may, under the agreement, periodically vary the credit limit and notify the customer, or

 

d if (a) (b) or © above are not appropriate either a statement indicating how the credit limit will be determined and notified to the customer or a statement that there is no credit limit.

 

Regards, Pam

What if the credit limit is unknown?

The initial credit limit should generally be known by the creditor when the agreement is presented or sent to the debtor for signature. If it is not, Sch 1 para 8 permits a statement indicating the manner in which the credit limit will be determined (or that it will be determined from time to time) and that notice of it will be given to the debtor – see Q3.10.

It is not permissible to use estimated information for the amount of the credit limit, since this is not information within Sch 1 paras 9-11 – see Q3.2. It is also not permissible to insert an amount assumed for the purposes of APR calculation – see Q10.9.

Office of Fair Trading Consumer Credit (Agreements etc) Regs draft FAQs 1

 

How would they give an APR unless the credit limit was known?

[Peterbard]

HI Pam

A court shall not make an enforcement order unless

(a) a provision of section 62 or 63 was not complied with, and the creditor or

owner did not give a copy of the executed agreement, and of any other

document referred to in it, to the debtor or hirer before the commencement

of the proceedings in which the order is sought, or

(b) section 64(1) was not complied with.

This would include the cancellation stuff in the regs Sched 3 i think.therefore it is not properly executed therefore is not inforceable by127(4)

Stil more to come on the credit limit issue.

I will let you have think while i have a cup of tea.

Peter

[Peterbard]

Yes - that statement is there as well on the agreement - just above where he signed it!!

 

Regards, Pam

 

Come on pam

 

I don't believe even you are trying to say those are in the correct form anyway how can you cancell if it is only an application?

[Guest The Terminator]

blo##y 'ell ... terms attack wiv 'is s85 'as brought the whole network to a standstill..... ooer

 

And thats only for starters:D

[InKogneeToh]

What if the credit limit is unknown?

The initial credit limit should generally be known by the creditor when the agreement is presented or sent to the debtor for signature. If it is not, Sch 1 para 8 permits a statement indicating the manner in which the credit limit will be determined (or that it will be determined from time to time) and that notice of it will be given to the debtor – see Q3.10.

It is not permissible to use estimated information for the amount of the credit limit, since this is not information within Sch 1 paras 9-11 – see Q3.2. It is also not permissible to insert an amount assumed for the purposes of APR calculation – see Q10.9.

Office of Fair Trading Consumer Credit (Agreements etc) Regs draft FAQs 1

 

How would they give an APR unless the credit limit was known?

 

From the OFT doc FAQs 2005 - in relation to calculating APR if the credit limit is unknown:

 

10.9 What do I assume for the amount of credit?

 

The amount of credit under a running-account credit agreement is taken to be the credit limit. This should generally be known by the creditor when the agreement is presented or sent to the debtor for signature, even if it is not stated in the document – see Q3.11.

If the credit limit is unknown at the date of making the agreement, Sch 7 para 1(1) provides that the amount of credit must be assumed to be £1,500 or, where the credit limit will be less than £1,500, an amount equal to that limit – but see Q10.12. This overrides any relevant assumption in the TCC Regs.

 

Regards, Pam

[InKogneeToh]

 

HI Pam

A court shall not make an enforcement order unless

(a) a provision of section 62 or 63 was not complied with, and the creditor or

owner did not give a copy of the executed agreement, and of any other

document referred to in it, to the debtor or hirer before the commencement

of the proceedings in which the order is sought, or

(b) section 64(1) was not complied with.

 

This would include the cancellation stuff in the regs Sched 3 i think.therefore it is not properly executed therefore is not inforceable by127(4)

 

Stil more to come on the credit limit issue.

 

I will let you have think while i have a cup of tea.

 

Peter

 

The cancellation statement is in the signature document.

 

Within the prescribed time limit, the creditor must send a second copy of the agreement that will contain a further cancellation statement and instructions as to cancellation.

 

We have not been told that this 2nd copy was not sent, so can't say that it falls under s127(4).

 

Also, I have not said that this agreement is okay. I said it was improperly executed and so unenforceable without a court order because 2 of the statutory statements are missing.

 

Regards, Pam

[InKogneeToh]

Come on pam

 

I don't believe even you are trying to say those are in the correct form anyway how can you cancell if it is only an application?

 

Peter

 

You are forgetting what s127(3) actually says:

 

(3) The court shall not make an enforcement order under section 65(1) if section 61(1)(a) (signing of agreements) was not complied with unless a document (whether or not in the prescribed form and complying with regulations under section 60(1)) itself containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor or hirer (whether or not in the prescribed manner).

 

 

 

So, any document that contains all of the prescribed terms and the debtors signature will be considered by the court for enforcement - i.e. an improperly executed agreement may be ruled enforceable depending on the actual circumstances, but one that does not contain all of the prescribed terms and the debtors signature will not.

 

So my personal opinion is that a document that looks like an application form 'could' be ruled enforceable if it contains all of the prescribed terms and signature.

 

 

Regards, Pam

[rippedoffagain]

Are we getting to them!

Re HBOS: All bank charge complaints are simply...complaints. Under FOS regulations, all banks have 8 weeks to fully respond to a complaint or issue FOS referral rights. All banks now have put in extra staff to deal with the influx of complaints and stalling to "judgment" day to twist the knife in a little deeper is the norm, actively encouraged. I kid you not, the days of free banking are over.

 

Posted in HBOS sectionhttp://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/halifax-bank-bank-scotland/67706-customer-relations-direct-number.html#post635361

[ncf355]

 

Also, I have not said that this agreement is okay. I said it was improperly executed and so unenforceable without a court order because 2 of the statutory statements are missing.

 

Regards, Pam

 

 

Hi,

 

can you confirm what you consider to be missing in the way of stat statements please Pam?

[InKogneeToh]

Hi,

 

can you confirm what you consider to be missing in the way of stat statements please Pam?

 

Hi

 

It's the one about your right to claim either from the trader or the creditor if the trader is in breach, according to s75 CCA

 

Plus the one that limits your liability for loss or misuse of the card.

 

If you download the doc. in the link I posted a few posts ago (Post 4148) you will see these 2 stat. statements near the end of the doc.

 

Regards, Pam

[InKogneeToh]

The first is on page 39 (No 6) and the 2nd is on page 41 (no 9)

 

Regards, Pam

[ncf355]

 

If you download the doc. in the link I posted a few posts ago (Post 4148) you will see these 2 stat. statements near the end of the doc.

 

Regards, Pam

 

 

Thanks Pam -

 

The smiley ate up part of the post #

 

414 what?

[ncf355]

Sorry,

 

got it -

 

4 1 4 8

[Guest Battleaxe]

We have just got Mrs CAGgers Plea prepared for the Court for Section 85.

 

May 9 is the date set for the hearing, if it gets that far.

 

We have been able to prove the debt was sold unlawfully. The particular bank gave her the evidence unwittingly.

[Seahorse]

Speaking of Mrs CAGger, she has said I should PM you BA. OK if I do?

[Guest Battleaxe]

What's in it for me Seahorse? Yes you can PM me.