Jump to content


  • Tweets

  • Posts

    • Speaking of the reformatory boys, here they are with all of their supporters, some of whom traveled with them from miles away, all carefully crammed together and photographed to look like there were more than about 80 .. rather like Farages last rally with even fewer people crammed around what looked like an ice cream van or mobile tea bar ... Although a number in the crowd apparently thought they were at a vintage car rally as they appeared to be chanting 'crank-her'. A vintage Bentley must be out of view.   Is this all there is? Its less than the Tory candidate. - shut up and smile while they get a camera angle that looks better
    • in order for us to help you we require the following information:- Which Court have you received the claim from ? Canterbury If possible please scan redact and upload a full page copy of page 1 of the claim form. ( Name of the Claimant ? Moneybarn No 1   How many defendant's  joint or self ? One Date of issue – top right hand corner of the claim form – this in order to establish the time line you need to adhere to. 29/05/24 Acknowledged by 14/06/24  Defence by 29/06/24  Particulars of Claim PARTICULARS OF CLAIM   1.  By a Conditional Sale Agreement in writing made on 25th August 2022. Between the Claimant and Defendant, the Claimant let to the Defendant on Conditional Sale. A Ford Ranger 3.2 TDCi (200 P S) 4x4 Wildtrack  Double Cab Pickup 3200cc (Sep.2015) Registration No, ******* Chassis number ***************** (“The Vehicle”).  A copy of the agreement is attached   2.  The price of the goods was £15,995.00.  The Initial Rental was £8500.00.  The total charge for credit was £3575.;17 And the balance of £11,070.17 was payable by 59 equal consecutive monthly instalments of £187 63. payable on the 25th of each month.   3.  The following were expressed conditions of the set agreement,   Clause 8: Our Right to End this Agreement  8.1   Subject to sending you the notice as required by law, any of the following events will entitle us to end this Agreement: 8.1.2  You fail to pay the advance payment (if any) or any of the payments as specified on the front page of this agreement or any other sum payable under this Agreement. 8.1.3 If any of the information you have given us before entering into this Agreement or during the term of this Agreement was false 8.1.4 We consider, acting reasonably, that the goods may be in jeopardy or that our rights in the goods may otherwise be prejudiced. 8.1.5 If you die 8.1.6 If a bankruptcy petition is presented against you; if you petition for your own bankruptcy, or make a live arrangement with your creditors or call a meeting of them. 8. 1.7 If in Scotland, you become insolvent or sequestration or a receiver, judicial factor or trustee to be appointed over any of your estate, or effects or suffer an arrestment, charge attachment or other diligence to be issued or levied on any of your estate or effects or suffer any exercise, or threatened exercise of landlords hype hypothec 8.1.8 If you are a partnership, you are dissolved 8.1.9 If the goods are destroyed, lost, stolen and/or treated by the insurer as a total loss in response to an insurance claim. 8.1.10 If we reasonably believe any payment made to us in respect of this Agreement is a proceed of crime. 8.1.11 If steps are taken by us to terminate any other agreement which you have entered into with us.   Clause 9.  Effect of Us Terminating Agreement   9.1 If this Agreement terminates under clause 8 the following will apply 9.1.1 Subject to the rights given to you by law, you will no longer be entitled to possession of the goods and must return them to us to an address as we may reasonably specify, (removing or commencing the removal of any cherished plates) together with a V5 registration certificate, both sets of keys and a service record book. If you are unable or unwilling to return the goods to us then we shall collect the goods and we'll charge you in accordance with clause 10.3 9.1.2 We will be entitled to immediate payment from you for all payments and all other sums do under this agreement at the date of termination 9.1.3 We will sell the goods or public sale at the earliest opportunity once the goods are in a reasonable condition which includes a return of the items listed in clause 7.1.4 9.1.4 We will be entitled to immediate payment from you of the rest of the Total Amount Payable under this agreement less: ( a) A rebate for early settlement ias required by law which will be calculated and notified to you at the time of payment (b) The proceeds of sale of the goods (if any) after deduction of all costs associated with finding you and/or the goods, recovery, refurbishment and repair. Insurance, storage, sale, agents fees, cherished plate removal, replacement keys, costs associated with obtaining service history for the goods and in relation to obtaining a duplicate V5 registration certificate   4, The following are particulars required by Civil Procedure Rules. Rule 7.9 as set out in 7.1 and 7.2 of the associated Practice Direction entitled Hire Purchase Claims:-   a)     The agreement is dated 25 August 2022. And is between Moneybarn No1 Limited  and xxxxxxxxx under agreement number 756050. b)    The claimant was one of the original parties to the agreement. c)    The agreement is regulated under the Consumer Credit Act 1974. d)    The goods claimed Ford Ranger 3.2 TDCi ( 200 PS) 4x4 Wildtrack Double Cab Pickup 3200 cc (Sep2015} Registration No ^^^^^^^ Chassis number ***************** e)     Thw total price of the goods £19570 f)     The paid up sum £1206 5 g)    The unpaid balance of the total price £7505 (to include charges) h)    A default notice was sent to the defendant on 20th February 2024 by Firrst class post i)      The date when the right to demand delivery of the goods accrued 14 March 2024 j)      The amount if any claimed as an alternative to delivery of the goods 7505 22 include charges ]= 5.  A the date of service of the notice the instalments were £562.89 in arrears. 6. By reason of the Termination of the Agreement by the notice, defendant became liable to pay the sum of £7502 7. The date of maturity the agreement is 24th August 2027. 8. Further or  alternative by reasons of  the Defendant breaches of the agreement by failing to pay the said instalments, the Defendant evinced an intention no longer to be bound by the Agreement and repudiated it by the said Notice the claimant accepted that repudiation 9. By reason of such repudiation the claimant has suffered loss and damage.   Total amount payable £19570 Less sum paid or in arrears by the date of repudiation £12064 97 Balance £7505 (to include charges.) ( The claimant will give credit if necessary for the value of the vehicle if recovered.)  The claimant therefore claims 1.    An order for delivery up of the vehicle 2.    The MoneyClaim to be adjourned generally with liberty to restore,  Upon restoration of the MoneyClaim following return or loss of the vehicle. the Claimant will ensure the pre action protocol for debt claims is followed. 3.    Pursuant to s 90 (1)  of the Consumer Credit Act 1974. An order that the Claimant and/or its agents may enter any premises in which the vehicle is situated in order to recover the vehicle should it not be returned by the Defendant 4.    further or alternatively damages 5.    costs.   Statement of truth The Claimant believes that the facts stated in these Particulars of Claim are true. The Claimant understands that the proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes or causes to be made a false statement in the document for verified by statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth. I am duly Authorised by the Claimant to sign these Particulars of Claim signed Dated 17th of April 2024   What is the total value of the claim? 7502   Have you received prior notice of a claim being issued pursuant to paragraph 3 of the PAPDC (Pre Action Protocol) ? No   Never heard of this   Have you changed your address since the time at which the debt referred to in the claim was allegedly incurred? No   Did you inform the claimant of your change of address? n/a Is the claim for - a Bank Account (Overdraft) or credit card or loan or catalogue or mobile phone account? No   When did you enter into the original agreement before or after April 2007 ? After  Do you recall how you entered into the agreement...On line /In branch/By post ? In a garage  Is the debt showing on your credit reference files (Experian/Equifax /Etc...) ? Yes  Has the claim been issued by the original creditor or was the account assigned and it is the Debt purchaser who has issued the claim. Original Were you aware the account had been assigned – did you receive a Notice of Assignment? n/a   Did you receive a Default Notice from the original creditor? They said sent but nor received   Have you been receiving statutory notices headed “Notice of Sums in Arrears”  or " Notice of Arrears "– at least once a year ? None seen   Why did you cease payments? Still Paying,   What was the date of your last payment? Yesterday  31st May 2024   Was there a dispute with the original creditor that remains unresolved? No   Did you communicate any financial problems to the original creditor and make any attempt to enter into a debt management plan? Yes on 12 Feb 2024   What you need to do now.   Can't scan, will do via another means as you cant have jpg
    • Now that is an interesting article which adds afew perspective that I hadn't thought significant - but on reflection of the perspectives offered ... Now Starmer is no Blair, however 'blairite he may be perceived, but the Tories aren't tories and aren't even remotely liberal   The fast 'unannounced and unexpected election call from sunack may well be explained by the opinion linked that he hoped reform would be unprepared and effectively call a chunk of Farages largely empty bluster - making him look even more of a prat, leave scope for attacks on shabby reform candidates and mimimise core vote losses to reform - while throwing the 'middle ground' (relative) tories TO THE DOGS - and with the added bonus of likely pacifying his missu' desire to jogg off to sunny cal tout suite somewhat   thumb in the air - I expect about 140ish tory seats, but can hope for under a hundred Reform - got to admit the outside possibility of 1, maybe 2 seats with about 8% of the vote - but unlikely. I think projections of over 10% of the vote for reform is nudged and paid for speculation - but possible with the expected massive drives from Russian, Chinese and far right social media bot and troll prods targeting the gullible.
    • Commentary June 2024 WWW.ELECTORALCALCULUS.CO.UK Interesting article about just how bad it could be for the Tories.  Also Tories could be hoping on Reform not having candidates in many seats, as they were not ready.  
    • Even a Piers Morgan is an improvement and a gutless Farage Piers Morgan calls for second Brexit referendum WWW.THELONDONECONOMIC.COM Piers Morgan and Nigel Farage have faced off over Brexit and a second referendum in a heated reunion on BBC Question Time.   “Why don’t we have another referendum about Brexit?” he questioned. “I seem to remember when 2016 came around we were told there was going to be control of our borders and it was going to be economically beneficial to this country. And eight years later we have lost complete control of our borders… and economically it seems to have been a wilful act of self-harm.”   ... Piers missed off : after all somebody said a 48/52 decision would be "unfinished business" by a long way - was that person just bul lying (again)  
  • Recommended Topics

  • Our picks

    • If you are buying a used car – you need to read this survival guide.
      • 1 reply
    • Hello,

      On 15/1/24 booked appointment with Big Motoring World (BMW) to view a mini on 17/1/24 at 8pm at their Enfield dealership.  

      Car was dirty and test drive was two circuits of roundabout on entry to the showroom.  Was p/x my car and rushed by sales exec and a manager into buying the mini and a 3yr warranty that night, sale all wrapped up by 10pm.  They strongly advised me taking warranty out on car that age (2017) and confirmed it was honoured at over 500 UK registered garages.

      The next day, 18/1/24 noticed amber engine warning light on dashboard , immediately phoned BMW aftercare team to ask for it to be investigated asap at nearest garage to me. After 15 mins on hold was told only their 5 service centres across the UK can deal with car issues with earliest date for inspection in March ! Said I’m not happy with that given what sales team advised or driving car. Told an amber warning light only advisory so to drive with caution and call back when light goes red.

      I’m not happy to do this, drive the car or with the after care experience (a sign of further stresses to come) so want a refund and to return the car asap.

      Please can you advise what I need to do today to get this done. 
       

      Many thanks 
        • Thanks
      • 81 replies
    • Housing Association property flooding. https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/438641-housing-association-property-flooding/&do=findComment&comment=5124299
      • 161 replies
    • We have finally managed to obtain the transcript of this case.

      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

      Frankly I don't think that is any accident.

      One of the points that the judge made was that the customers contract with the broker specifically refers to the courier – and it is clear that the courier knows that they are acting for a third party. There is no need to name the third party. They just have to be recognisably part of a class of person – such as a sender or a recipient of the parcel.

      Please note that a recent case against UPS failed on exactly the same issue with the judge held that the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 did not apply.

      We will be getting that transcript very soon. We will look at it and we will understand how the judge made such catastrophic mistakes. It was a very poor judgement.
      We will be recommending that people do include this adverse judgement in their bundle so that when they go to county court the judge will see both sides and see the arguments against this adverse judgement.
      Also, we will be to demonstrate to the judge that we are fair-minded and that we don't mind bringing everything to the attention of the judge even if it is against our own interests.
      This is good ethical practice.

      It would be very nice if the parcel delivery companies – including EVRi – practised this kind of thing as well.

       

      OT APPROVED, 365MC637, FAROOQ, EVRi, 12.07.23 (BRENT) - J v4.pdf
        • Like
  • Recommended Topics

£20 fine unfairly given, advice appreciated!


style="text-align: center;">  

Thread Locked

because no one has posted on it for the last 4588 days.

If you need to add something to this thread then

 

Please click the "Report " link

 

at the bottom of one of the posts.

 

If you want to post a new story then

Please

Start your own new thread

That way you will attract more attention to your story and get more visitors and more help 

 

Thanks

Recommended Posts

Hi,

 

Just would appreciate some advice regarding a fine I received today.

 

I boarded a train at Station A to get to destination C whilst changing at station B (unfortunately, my credit card was not working on the machine at station A).

 

Usually in this scenario I would pay for my ticket at destination C. When I arrived at destination C, I was confronted by a ticket inspector who said that because I didn't pay at destination B, I would be fined (despite the fact I boarded at destination A). I was happy to pay for my fair at C, but the ticket inspector refused this and fined me instead.

 

The fine notice states that I failed to pay a fare from destination B to destination C (despite the fact I boarded at A).

 

My question is could I appeal against this? In my appeal letter if I state that at station B I was advised to pay for the ticket at station C, would this suffice to win an appeal? I'm not sure exactly how the process works, but I think it is unfair that I am being fined.

 

Any Help appreciated

 

Cheers

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hello and welcome to CAG.

 

I have to say Mr Gates is smarter than me at following the ABC parts of your post. Is there any chance you could tell us which stations please? It may help the guys here to advise you.

 

As Mr Gates has hinted, was it a fine or a penalty fare please? My understanding is that only a court can impose a fine.

 

My best, HB

Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

If you travelled from a Penalty Fare station then the PF was correctly issued.

Views expressed in this forum by me are my own personal opinion and you take it on face value! I make any comments to the best of my knowledge but you take my advice at your own risk.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Station A: Where I boarded (this is where the ticket machine would not accept my credit card, I wanted to buy a zone 1-6 travelcard)

 

Station B: Station that I changed in order to get to my final destination (Station C).

 

Station C: My final destination. This is where I was confronted by the Ticket Inspector.

Edited by zeospeed
Link to post
Share on other sites

2. In my appeal can I state that I was advised at station B to pay for the fare at station C (I know this was not the case, but in an appeal would it not be my word against there's?)

 

Hello again. I fear you may have misunderstood the purpose of this forum and CAG. We're not here to help you bend the rules. It could be that you were caught bang to rights, although we may not have enough information to tell you that.

 

My best, HB

Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

My point is, in this scenario, where I couldn't buy the ticket at my boarding station, where does it state that I have to purchase the ticket at change-over. I have never heard this rule before. If it was the case that I had to buy the ticket at change-over, there was no clear advice regarding this, and that doesn't really make any sense as this would involve me getting out of a station that I am not planning on going to. Moreover, I don't see how this is any different to purchasing a ticket at the final destination.

 

Is this correct?

Edited by zeospeed
Link to post
Share on other sites

I managed to purchase the ticket fine at Waterloo. It was just at Sutton Common that there was a problem.

 

There was no opportunity to purchase a ticket at Wimbledon (B), as there were no ticket inspectors on the train. I would have had to leave the station in order to purchase a ticket, and I certainly wouldn't class that as an opportunity. Is there any small print/guideline that states this law?

Link to post
Share on other sites

@HB

 

630pm today. No ticket office as far as I could fathom (and according to the National rail website it has no ticket office)

 

 

I attempted to use the permit to travel machine, but the red light was on i.e. not issuing permits to travel at that time.

 

It was a penalty fare (NOT a fine, apologies)

Link to post
Share on other sites

The rules for interchange from the Penalty Fares Policy:

4.29 When a penalty fare cannot be charged.

The instructions must make clear to authorised

collectors when they can charge a penalty fare and when they can’t. In particular, the

instructions must remind authorised collectors of situations where passengers are not liable

to a penalty fare under the Penalty Fares Rules, for example in circumstances where the

National Rail Conditions of Carriage allow the passenger to pay an excess fare. The

instructions must cover the following instances.

Interchange
. A passenger who changes onto a penalty fares train at a penalty fares station

may normally be charged a penalty fare if ticket facilities were available at the interchange

station and warning notices were displayed where they could be seen by anyone changing

onto the penalty fares train. However, under condition 7 of the National Rail Conditions of

Carriage, the full normal range of tickets must be made available to any passenger who

started their journey at a station where no ticket facilities were available. In these

circumstances, a passenger should not be expected to buy a ticket at the interchange station

if they do not have enough time to do so without missing their connection. If it is not

possible to check whether or not ticket facilities were available at the station where the

passenger started their journey (which may be a station run by a different train company), a

penalty fare should not be charged.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry to sound extremely naive, but what I gather from this is that, given that there was no possibility for me to buy the ticket at Sutton Common, I technically should not have been given a penalty fare at Waterloo. Also, I had less than a 2 minute window for the interchange as I literally changed platforms and almost immediately boarded the connecting train.

Link to post
Share on other sites

If there were no facilities at Sutton Common for you to buy a ticket (and I don't think a machine that only accepts cards counts) then that seems to be the case. I suggest you quote the relevant part of the penalty fares policy I pasted above in your appeal. Do not "state that I was advised at station B to pay for the fare at station C" as that is a lie and lying is wrong.

Edited by Engelbert
Link to post
Share on other sites

The relevant issue is whether or not there were ticket issuing facilities at the station you boarded (Sutton Common).

You state your card would not work in the machine, I suggest you make an appeal on this basis. They can check whether it was your card or all cards that were being rejected, if there was a machine fault your appeal should be accepted.

If you lie they will find you out & may pass the PFN to the prosecution dept of the issuing TOC.

Link to post
Share on other sites

You should still make your appeal, the relevant part of the Penalty Fares Rules are referred to by Englebert is of course correct, but SRPO has a valid point. What the information about Sutton Common station says in relation to ticket facilities is as follows:

 

Self-service machines - Yes

Collect from counter - clear.gifNo

Collect from machine - Yes

 

Self-service machines invariably take cash & card payments.

Link to post
Share on other sites

If there is no ticket desk and no machine that accepts cash then I think that counts as no facilities to purchase a ticket. If there is a machine that takes only cards and other people's cards work but yours does not you still have grounds for an appeal. There is no legal requirement for you to have a credit/debit card as a means of paying, indeed some people do not and only use cash.

 

Leighton Buzzard station used to have a ticket machine that accepted cash and cards. It has recently been replaced with one that only accept cards. When the ticket office is closed a notice is attached to the machine instructing people with only cash to purchase their ticket on the train. They should not receive a penalty fare. When the ticket office closes on an ad-hoc basis (such as for assisting disabled people to cross the tracks, there is no lift on the bridge across the platform) the RPIs on the trains are not notified of such closures, in breach of the Penalty Fare Rules.

 

So the key issue is, did the ticket machine at Sutton Common accept cash?

Edited by Engelbert
typo
Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, that's the point exactly and if it did accept cash, but the traveller did not use it, it is likely that this may be the grounds on which an appeal might be rejected.

 

The point about 'no legal requirement to hold a payment card' is well made, but on the other hand, there is no legal requirement to accept card payments either, though I have to say that in this day and age it would seem perverse not to do so.

Edited by Old-CodJA
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

Hi just to update you regarding the situation.

 

I have received a letter back saying they cannot uphold the appeal. There is no justification to my argument written in the letter all they have written is:

 

"I understand that the notice was issued as production of a valid ticket or authority to travel was not possible on the date concerned.

 

Consequently I must advise that in line with the National Rail Conditions of Carriage and the Penalty Fare Rules, the office is unable to uphold this appeal.

 

As detailed in the National Rails Conditions and Carriage, it is the responsibility of the rail user to purchase a valid ticket or other authority to travel before boarding the train. Train companies operating a penalty fare scheme display statutory warning notices at these stations which advice rail users of their responsibilities and the potential consequences in failing to meet these"

 

This is rubbish as this penalty notices contravenes the other part of the Conditions of Carriage that states that inadequate ticketing facilities at the boarding station and inadequate time to buy a ticket at the interchange mean that a penalty fares notice cannot be upheld.

 

What do you think the next best step would be? I'm not sure if you can re-appeal, or if you can escalate it to someone more senior?

 

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

Many Thanks in advance.

Link to post
Share on other sites

You can write to IPFAS (the Independent Penalty Fares Appeals service)

 

For what my opinion is worth, you will not win the appeal and if the penalty remains unpaid, they will more than likely cancel the penalty fare option and issue a Summons as allowed by the legislation in force.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The money is not an issue to me, it is the principle of it. I would like them to explain the precise reasoning behind the fine (not just spout the same "you didn't have a ticket" garbage) or at least acknowledge that they are breaking their own code in order to push the fine.

 

Is it possible to pay the fine and appeal simultaneously?

Link to post
Share on other sites

and inadequate time to buy a ticket at the interchange mean that a penalty fares notice cannot be upheld.

 

It's your responsibility to ensure you have plenty of time to buy a ticket. This is pretty much why I buy my tickets (aside from 2 - but one I had plenty of time and the other, I got an open single and could therefore, use any train) in advance.

Link to post
Share on other sites

But if that is the case then why do they have this spiel:

 

 

4.29 When a penalty fare cannot be charged.

The instructions must make clear to authorised

collectors when they can charge a penalty fare and when they can’t. In particular, the

instructions must remind authorised collectors of situations where passengers are not liable

to a penalty fare under the Penalty Fares Rules, for example in circumstances where the

National Rail Conditions of Carriage allow the passenger to pay an excess fare. The

instructions must cover the following instances.

• Interchange. A passenger who changes onto a penalty fares train at a penalty fares station

may normally be charged a penalty fare if ticket facilities were available at the interchange

station and warning notices were displayed where they could be seen by anyone changing

onto the penalty fares train. However, under condition 7 of the National Rail Conditions of

Carriage, the full normal range of tickets must be made available to any passenger who

started their journey at a station where no ticket facilities were available. In these

circumstances, a passenger should not be expected to buy a ticket at the interchange station

if they do not have enough time to do so without missing their connection. If it is not

possible to check whether or not ticket facilities were available at the station where the

passenger started their journey (which may be a station run by a different train company), a

penalty fare should not be charged.

 

 

This implies if you can't buy a ticket in your boarding station, you are not expected to buy a ticket at an interchange station if it is going to delay your journey i.e. just the opposite of what you said, you are NOT Expected to make time to buy your ticket at an interchange if it's going to delay your journey.

 

This is my main grievance, the fact that they have rejected the appeal with no justification whatsoever.

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 Caggers

    • No registered users viewing this page.

  • Have we helped you ...?


×
×
  • Create New...