Bong v HSBC *Contractual Interest & 13yr claim**WON!!!**

[Guest bong]

well done - I've just visited your thread.

[Guest bong]

well I'm still working on my reply to the defence but here's my first para if anyone wishes to add comment or suggest alterations. would be particularly glad to hear what zootscoot makes if it if she's around!

 

deleted - modified and re-posted further down the thread

[bill-k]

well I'm still working on my reply to the defence but here's my first para if anyone wishes to add comment or suggest alterations. would be particularly glad to hear what zootscoot makes if it if she's around!

 

SPECIFIC REBUTTALS TO THE DEFENCE

 

1. Paragraph 1 of the defence leads the claimant to believe that the defence is merely a blanket defence, prepared without any regard for the claimant’s banking relationship with the defendant and, the claimant surmises, intended to be used in the manner of a bulk response to various unrelated and irrelevant court proceedings issued against it by other claimants.

 

Specifically, the defendant claims .

I just had to see what that looked like if I quoted it, Bong. The size of the script knocked me off my chair !!

I reckon that rebuttal should knock 'em off their perch, too !!

[Guest bong]

is it that large then? it looks normal on my screen but I had originally typed it in word using quite a large font size. hope you didn't do any damage to yourself or the chair LOL!!

[Flapper]

just about to send off for my statements and in 2 minds is it worthwhile getting legal advise ? as some of this stuff is way over my head in all honesty

 

i've been a customer same bank/account for nearly 21 years

 

do i safe claim? for 6 years only to save the hassle

 

even 6 years charges from paperwork i currently have filed is estimated 10k ?

[photoman]

Errrrrrrrr...........sent off my claim for last 6 years on a Business account.....(no great worries there, as read up on what basis i can use ie, no Consumer reg reference on Prelim or POC, and seen plenty of Business claims settled on here, as long as careful what use as POC etc)........however just out of interest today, went up in attic and found some old statements (personal account prior to business, so lots of college stuff, ther were some gaps, but some go back to 1985, then gaps and periods were had no penalties, so decided to put them into a spready ( compounded with contractual interest) just for curiosity.........only done half of them, upto around 1993, so far came to £29,779.03 !!!!!!!!!!

 

.........and thats only half of them.....with the rest (bearing in mind don't go back so far, so interest will not be so large)......reckon gonna be in excess of £40 K !!!!!!!

 

mmmmmmmmmmm.........If I win this first round I am so gonna watch the threads dealing with questioning the legalities of Statute of Limitations, based upon clauses about concealment etc !!!..........then, if grounds for lifting the 6 years limit based on concealment etc...... I'm gonna go for the jugular !!! ohhhhhhhhhhh boooooooooooy !!!

[footieuk]

Bong - good on you mate! I have just been reading this thread with great interest.

 

I have 2 HSBC accounts, one businesss and one personal. I have held them for 23 years (or thereabouts) and I would not like to imagine what money I have coughed up over that period in charges. The last six years, which is what I have been lookinng at thus far (but haven't formerly put a claim in for - yet) adds up to about £5K. I hadn't considered all of the various loans taken out to cover this. I will follow this thread with great interest, as I am about to send an email to my bank manager to kick the process of.

 

As Corporal Jones said "they don't like it up 'em!"

 

Footieuk

[Guest bong]

just about to send off for my statements and in 2 minds is it worthwhile getting legal advise ? as some of this stuff is way over my head in all honesty

 

i've been a customer same bank/account for nearly 21 years

 

do i safe claim? for 6 years only to save the hassle

 

even 6 years charges from paperwork i currently have filed is estimated 10k ?

 

flapper

 

when you say 'safe claim' and 'hassle' I'm not sure what you mean. no claim is safe - even one for £20 and you have to be prepared to work at your claims to get them paid if thats the hassle you mean.

 

if you've got £10,000 of charges in 6 years then your claim is fast track anyway - not small claims court. this is good news because it means that you can request disclosure (details of the banks actual costs for returning cheques etc) which the banks will run a mile from 'cos they don't know what their costs are. although if you lose the case you could pay up to £750 against the other sides costs.

 

it has to be your choice whether you go for the whole lot or just 6 years. you could wait and see what happens on other claims like my own before you decide.

[Guest bong]

Errrrrrrrr...........sent off my claim for last 6 years on a Business account.....(no great worries there, as read up on what basis i can use ie, no Consumer reg reference on Prelim or POC, and seen plenty of Business claims settled on here, as long as careful what use as POC etc)........however just out of interest today, went up in attic and found some old statements (personal account prior to business, so lots of college stuff, ther were some gaps, but some go back to 1985, then gaps and periods were had no penalties, so decided to put them into a spready ( compounded with contractual interest) just for curiosity.........only done half of them, upto around 1993, so far came to £29,779.03 !!!!!!!!!!

 

.........and thats only half of them.....with the rest (bearing in mind don't go back so far, so interest will not be so large)......reckon gonna be in excess of £40 K !!!!!!!

 

mmmmmmmmmmm.........If I win this first round I am so gonna watch the threads dealing with questioning the legalities of Statute of Limitations, based upon clauses about concealment etc !!!..........then, if grounds for lifting the 6 years limit based on concealment etc...... I'm gonna go for the jugular !!! ohhhhhhhhhhh boooooooooooy !!!

 

wow that is some claim!

[Guest bong]

Bong - good on you mate! I have just been reading this thread with great interest.

 

I have 2 HSBC accounts, one businesss and one personal. I have held them for 23 years (or thereabouts) and I would not like to imagine what money I have coughed up over that period in charges. The last six years, which is what I have been lookinng at thus far (but haven't formerly put a claim in for - yet) adds up to about £5K. I hadn't considered all of the various loans taken out to cover this. I will follow this thread with great interest, as I am about to send an email to my bank manager to kick the process of.

 

As Corporal Jones said "they don't like it up 'em!"

 

Footieuk

 

yeah..good luck footie

[Guest bong]

right, have slightly modified the first paragraph of the reply to defence, which now looks like this -

 

SPECIFIC REBUTTALS TO THE DEFENCE

1. Paragraph 1 of the defence gives the claimant sufficient grounds to form the opinion that the defence is merely a blanket defence, prepared without any regard for the claimant’s individual banking relationship with the defendant and intended to be used in the manner of a bulk response to various unrelated and irrelevant court proceedings issued against it by other claimants.

Specifically, the defendant affirms that it does not know which terms and conditions (business or personal) govern the operation of the claimant’s bank account. The claimant infers from this that the defendant has not identified her account and consequently would not be in a position to respond in any way to the claimant’s allegations.

The claimant’s account is a personal account, as stated at Paragraph 1 of the POC. Had it been a business account then the nature of the defendant’s charges would have been entirely different. The claimant concludes that the entire defence has been pled without regard to the transactions that are in dispute and without any real knowledge of the services that the defendant alleges to have rendered under contract as justification for the charges in dispute.

The claimant submits that on the grounds stated, the defence is not a statement made in truth, has no credibility and respectfully submits to the court that the defence should be struck out.

[bill-k]

....that's a more comfortable script, Bong - but an equally uncomfortable rebuttal. Somebody ain't gonna sit down for a week !!

[alanfromderby]

If you want to include a request to strike out the defence you will need to file it on an N244 and pay a fee. The judge will not accept the request as part of a response to the defence.

[Guest bong]

Thanks Alan.

 

Am I right in thinking it can still go in the reply to defence also? Can I leave it in and make an application at the same time? Lastly, do I submit the reply to defence and the application to strike out the defence at the same time as the AQ or before? The AQ is due back on 29th Dec.

[alanfromderby]

I would serve the Reply to Defence as soon as you can, and if you are including the strike out part, then it would be advisable to issue the Application at the same time.

[Guest bong]

Thanks again Alan.

 

I've found two fees for applications and don't know which is right. There's a fee of £65 for an application on notice and a fee of £35 for an application by consent or without notice for a judgement or order. Do you know which of these it is? And is it reclaimable if the application succeeds? Also is it usual procedure to put the bank on notice that I am intending to make the application?

[alanfromderby]

Should be £35......and there is no need to notify them before hand.

 

You do need to supply three copies (including supporting documents) to the court though, in the same way as the N1. They then send one to you with the date of hearing, one to the defendant, and keep one for themselves.

[Guest bong]

Right, I've got my work cut out for me this week then, and parents coming to stay too! looks like I'll be burning the midnight oil..no time..no time..aaaarghh!!!!!

[TANZARELLI]

I have decided to claim back all my charges since 1993 and to claim compound contractual interest. I am writing (once more) to HSBC to make them aware of this and give them 7 days to settle.

 

here is my letter:

 

I am writing further to my letter of 25th September 2006, which remains unanswered at this date.

 

In the time that has elapsed, I have reconsidered my position in relation to the extent of my claim for unlawful charges, and I would ask you to note that I am adjusting my claim both to cover the extended period of 26th July 1993 to the present date, and to include compound interest at HSBC plc’s standard overdraft rate of 15.9% EAR. I am applying this rate of interest to the monies that HSBC plc has unlawfully deducted from my account over the years, on the principles of implied mutuality and reciprocity, and unjust enrichment.

 

The revised total of the charges, and interest debited as a result of the charges, stands at £2,796.44 at today’s date, on which I have calculated interest due (to date) of £2,654.37, bringing my total claim to £5,450.81. I have enclosed an updated schedule of the figures for your information.

 

I wish to draw your attention to the fact that I have previously asked you to demonstrate that the bank’s charges are lawful, by providing evidence of the costs to which the bank has been put as a result of my account breaches. I have also previously requested details of any manual intervention on my account. Neither has been forthcoming.

 

Consequently I am of the view that HSBC plc is unable to demonstrate that its charges are lawful or that there has been manual intervention in relation to the breaches that have occurred and the charges that have resulted.

 

I believe I have received, at most, five automated letters from HSBC concerning breaches of the account terms throughout twenty-odd years of banking history with HSBC. In my estimation these would cost no more than £1 per letter to print and dispatch. I have used the call centre facility twice, once to stop a cheque of £9 that had been incorrectly debited to my account for £900, and the other time to report that I had been debited twice for an automated cash machine withdrawal. I receive paper statements and cheque books which undisputedly involve a cost.

 

However, all of the above services are provided to all HSBC customers and those who do not pay penalty charges are in effect receiving these services free of charge; consequently I do not accept that my charges have paid for these services.

 

I do not expect to borrow from the bank free of charge - I fully expect to pay interest. However if, as an example, you incurred costs (over and above the overdraft interest) of £125 when I exceeded my overdraft limit in August, I would like to know what those costs were, for I did not even receive a letter or a telephone call about it.

 

It is my considered view that HSBC plc, as a multinational corporation of very high standing and repute in the business and banking world, with the benefits of accounting expertise, in-house lawyers and/or access to top legal experts, owes a duty of care to its customers, in relation to ensuring that it is trading lawfully; and has therefore always had the resources to know that its charges were and are unreasonable, punitive in nature and therefore unlawful.

 

The level of the charges can be seen to be unrelated to the costs of the services provided; to exceed actual individual instances of loss to the bank, and to unjustly enrich the bank.

 

Based on the above, I believe that if HSBC plc is unwilling to settle my claim in full out of court, I will have no alternative but to attempt to persuade a court that by electing not to reveal its costs and the profit element of the charges, HSBC plc has always concealed the fact that its charges are unjustifiable and unlawful.

 

Further, I will aver that I mistook the charges to be lawful when I paid them, because prior to becoming aware of the OFT’s report this year I had trusted HSBC plc to operate lawfully.

 

Please note that I require unconditional repayment in full of £5,450.81, by cheque, within the next seven days in order to conclude this matter, failing which I will be proceeding with a court claim without further notice to you. In view of the costs involved for both parties I hope that HSBC plc will decide to settle my claim before that stage becomes necessary.

 

Hi Bong could I pinch some of your wording from this letter as following a successfull Barclays claim for the last 6 years, I want to hit them from further back?

 

Hope you dont mind

 

Tanz

[Guest bong]

Hi Tanz, steal away!

 

haven't had much time at all to get on with my reply to defence. too much to do and too many people needing virtually constant feeding and watering. anyway, I'll be popping in whenever I get a minute and I will look properly at my PMs when the Christmas panic has subsided.

 

Had an offer from DG today. they've deducted all charges older than 6 years, all the overdraft interest and the contractual interest. So they're offering me 6 years penalty charges, 8% county court interest and court fee.

 

Their covering letter (with offer letter attached) said

 

"within the schedule of charges that you have provided us with you have included charges from 26/7/1993 to 24/3/2000 inclusive in the aggregate sum of £575.50, net of interest. In this respect we wish to bring to your attention that these charges fall outside of the 6 year limitation period for bringing claims, pursuant to the Limitation Act 1980. We do, however, note paragraphs 9 and 10 of your Particulars of Claim but which are denied. In any event, our client maintains that its charges are reasonable, are properly and fully disclosed within its terms and conditions.

 

In addition we have recalculated interest upon the charges claimed at the rate of 8% per annum in accordance with section 69 of the county courts act 1984 and which sum equates to £265.26, correct as at 20th december 2006.

 

We invite you to consider our client's offer of settlement, which is made without admission as to liability, with a view to bringing this matter to a conclusion."

 

This was my reply (I hope there are no errors, my head is a bit full of Christmas preparations and it was typed with children hanging off my elbow):

 

Thank you for your letters dated 19th December 2006.

 

I note that your client has offered to pay the following:

£

Penalty charges 25/5/2001 to 26/9/2006 1,799.00

County Court interest at 8% 25/5/2001 to 20/12/2006 265.26

Court fee 120.00

 

Total 2,184.26

 

 

I note that your client has disregarded the following amounts claimed:

 

£

Penalty Charges 26/7/1993 to 24/3/2000 575.50

Overdraft interest on penalty charges 3/9/2001 to 3/11/2006 431.03

Compound interest at 15.9%* 26/7/1993 to 13/11/2006 2,700.91

Compound interest accrued at 15.9%* 14/11/2006 to 21/12/2006 85.31

 

Total 3,792.75

 

*HSBC’s Standard Overdraft Rate

 

Please be aware that I do not accept your client’s offer of settlement. The amount required to settle my claim as at today’s date is as follows:

 

£

Penalty charges 26/7/1993 to 26/9/2006 2,374.50

Overdraft interest on penalty charges 3/9/2001 to 3/11/2006 431.03

Compound interest at 15.9% 26/7/1993 to 21/12/2006 2,786.22

Court fee 120.00

 

Total 5,711.75

 

 

Yours faithfully

[TANZARELLI]

Thanks bong, is it worth adding in the section 32 arguement from limitation act, or have you already hit them with this?

 

Just a thought.

 

Tanz

 

P.S Have a Merrry Christmas

[livelylad]

Hi Tanz, steal away!

 

haven't had much time at all to get on with my reply to defence. too much to do and too many people needing virtually constant feeding and watering. anyway, I'll be popping in whenever I get a minute and I will look properly at my PMs when the Christmas panic has subsided.

 

Had an offer from DG today. they've deducted all charges older than 6 years, all the overdraft interest and the contractual interest. So they're offering me 6 years penalty charges, 8% county court interest and court fee.

 

Their covering letter (with offer letter attached) said

 

"within the schedule of charges that you have provided us with you have included charges from 26/7/1993 to 24/3/2000 inclusive in the aggregate sum of £575.50, net of interest. In this respect we wish to bring to your attention that these charges fall outside of the 6 year limitation period for bringing claims, pursuant to the Limitation Act 1980. We do, however, note paragraphs 9 and 10 of your Particulars of Claim but which are denied. In any event, our client maintains that its charges are reasonable, are properly and fully disclosed within its terms and conditions.

 

In addition we have recalculated interest upon the charges claimed at the rate of 8% per annum in accordance with section 69 of the county courts act 1984 and which sum equates to £265.26, correct as at 20th december 2006.

 

We invite you to consider our client's offer of settlement, which is made without admission as to liability, with a view to bringing this matter to a conclusion."

 

This was my reply (I hope there are no errors, my head is a bit full of Christmas preparations and it was typed with children hanging off my elbow):

 

Thank you for your letters dated 19th December 2006.

 

I note that your client has offered to pay the following:

£

Penalty charges 25/5/2001 to 26/9/2006 1,799.00

County Court interest at 8% 25/5/2001 to 20/12/2006 265.26

Court fee 120.00

 

Total 2,184.26

 

 

I note that your client has disregarded the following amounts claimed:

 

£

Penalty Charges 26/7/1993 to 24/3/2000 575.50

Overdraft interest on penalty charges 3/9/2001 to 3/11/2006 431.03

Compound interest at 15.9%* 26/7/1993 to 13/11/2006 2,700.91

Compound interest accrued at 15.9%* 14/11/2006 to 21/12/2006 85.31

 

Total 3,792.75

 

*HSBC’s Standard Overdraft Rate

 

Please be aware that I do not accept your client’s offer of settlement. The amount required to settle my claim as at today’s date is as follows:

 

£

Penalty charges 26/7/1993 to 26/9/2006 2,374.50

Overdraft interest on penalty charges 3/9/2001 to 3/11/2006 431.03

Compound interest at 15.9% 26/7/1993 to 21/12/2006 2,786.22

Court fee 120.00

 

Total 5,711.75

 

 

Yours faithfully

 

Great letter Bong. No need to include sect 32 they already know this from your POC.

[TANZARELLI]

Ok, thought it would have already been mentioned.

 

Tanz

[livelylad]

Ok, thought it would have already been mentioned.

 

Tanz

 

[lateralus]

don't think they read yours very well, did they?!!!

(btw, after xmas is fine, thankx)