Help appleaing Council Parking Ticket based on signage

[TheWatcherxx99]

I've just received a council parking ticket for parking in a bay without a ticket. I was there all of seven minutes (went to answer call of nature).

 

I've just read that there is no "grace period" so I can't argue that I wasn't given long enough so I intend to appeal this based that the signage is in correct. After walking around the area the ticket was issue in I can see Pay and Display signs at the start of the white bays but nowhere can I see the times this is in force except for in tiny letters on the Pay and Display machines themselves. I will be happy to provide photos.

 

Do any experts think I've got a chance of appeal?

[Michael Browne]

This may be a Controlled Parking Zone (CPZ), in which case the restricted times will be on the entry signs to the zone, which apply to the entire zone.A separate timeplate in a bay is only required if the restricted times for that bay differ from those on the entry signs

[Al27]

Photos please!

[TheWatcherxx99]

I have walked to the end of the street in question and two other streets also within this zone but there were no times displayed, this might be because I was I was still inside the parking zone.

 

I will go to where the zone starts and see if I can see any times. If none are shown can I appeal on that ground?

[Michael Browne]

Name the location or a Google streetview link.

[Jamberson]

I don't think the underlying CPZ restriction will apply by default to pay & display bays. They need a sign.

 

What was the location?

[Michael Browne]

I don't think the underlying CPZ restriction will apply by default to pay & display bays. They need a sign.

 

Yes, they need a sign to signify whether it is a P&D, Resident, Business or Multi-use bay, but will only require a timeplate as well if the times are different to the zone entry times.

[green_and_mean]

If there were no times one would tend to think it was pay and display all the time and check the machine rather than think it was free?

[TheWatcherxx99]

Hello there thanks for the interest.

 

It is a Pay and Display Zone

 

The ticket was issued in Bank Square here is a street view link to the end of it.

 

Bank Square is within a parking zone therefore no times are shown on any signs and as I understand it times only need be shown at the beginning of any zone.

 

A few roads down the zone ends. Here is a link to signs as you enter the zone.

 

I've driven around a few roads (and as I live in the area) so I'm certain that no times are displayed either on signs, or lampposts, only on the P&D machines themselves.

[Jamberson]

I am of the opinion that this is either a case of faulty signing, or if for some reason technically correct, is so vague as to be a winner at adjudication. If you drove past those signs, then arrived at the pay & display bay you used, I don't see how a reasonable, average motorist would know what the hours of enforcement are. That being the case, I think the signage is not clear and so the PCN (and presumably many others issued for the same reason) is not sound.

 

I say appeal - include the image of the zone entry sign, and state that there is no timeplate at the bay itself, and I think your appeal should win.

 

G&M's point about lack of times implying 24/7 is a fair one to make, but at odds with normal practice for p&d, and sufficiently unclear to still warrant an appeal even if that is the case - here we all are puzzling over it, and we known more than most about these things! More likely the council has failed to erect the appropriate signs.

[green_and_mean]

I am of the opinion that this is either a case of faulty signing, or if for some reason technically correct, is so vague as to be a winner at adjudication. If you drove past those signs, then arrived at the pay & display bay you used, I don't see how a reasonable, average motorist would know what the hours of enforcement are..

 

Surely that would apply in every CPZ, at least with a pay and display you can check the machine unlike yellow lines where you need to go back to the zone entry? I think if anything the lack of times on the entry signs is wrong I have never come across a pay and display zone but I'm sure its the same as any CPZ and the entry signs should be timed.

[Jamberson]

I've never seen a pay & display zone either, but I'll go along with the idea that they exist. In any case, there have to be times stated on signs somewhere - either entry signs or local timeplates. If there's neither, the restriction isn't signed at all. I know that you can read it off the p&d machines, but that isn't a defence for the LA if the OP challenges the signage, so I think he has a winning hand.

[TheWatcherxx99]

Thanks for your responses. I'm very encouraged by them.

 

This appeal seems so simple that I'm looking for a reason to make it more difficult, but it appears the council have failed to erect proper signage.

 

Just to clarify one point: the hours of operation on the machines is 8:00 - 18:00 Monday to Saturday holidays. Nowhere round here is it 24hr Pay and Display so that cannot be the reason for the lack of times on the entry signs.

 

I plan to lodge my appeal today, however I have just two more questions:

 

-Is there an Act or rule relating to the Council's duty to provide time plates on entry signs which I can quote in my appeal?

-I'm am going to inspect all the entry signs at every entrance to this Pay and Display area. My question is this: if only one entrance to the area has time plates will that be enough for the council to reject my appeal. I think this question might be answered by the information I have asked for above.

 

Thanks for your time and interest I shall post my appeal and the result here.

 

P.S: I have just Googled my council's website on parking. It says this about it's parking enforcement:

"...The whole of Southport Town Centre is a controlled parking zone, where parking is only permitted in marked bays and a pay and display system operates. There are three zones and the parking charges vary according to the zone (please see details below). The zones are indicted by the tariff stated on the pay and display machines. Please refer to the on street pay and display machines for the times the zone is operational and the charges that apply."

 

So I guess more than ever I need an act or rule that to dispute the lack of entry time plates.

 

Thanks again.

Edited September 20, 2011 by TheWatcherxx99

[TheWatcherxx99]

Thanks for your responses. I'm very encouraged by them.

 

This appeal seems so simple that I'm looking for a reason to make it more difficult, but it appears the council have failed to erect proper signage.

 

Just to clarify one point: the hours of operation on the machines is 8:00 - 18:00 Monday to Saturday holidays. Nowhere round here is it 24hr Pay and Display so that cannot be the reason for the lack of times on the entry signs.

 

I plan to lodge my appeal today, however I have just two more questions:

 

-Is there an Act or rule relating to the Council's duty to provide time plates on entry signs which I can quote in my appeal?

-I'm am going to inspect all the entry signs at every entrance to this Pay and Display area. My question is this: if only one entrance to the area has time plates will that be enough for the council to reject my appeal. I think this question might be answered by the information I have asked for above.

 

Thanks for your time and interest I shall post my appeal and the result here.

 

P.S: I have just Googled my council's website on parking. It says this about it's parking enforcement:

"...The whole of Southport Town Centre is a controlled parking zone, where parking is only permitted in marked bays and a pay and display system operates. There are three zones and the parking charges vary according to the zone (please see details below). The zones are indicted by the tariff stated on the pay and display machines. Please refer to the on street pay and display machines for the times the zone is operational and the charges that apply."

 

So I guess more than ever I need an act or rule that to dispute the lack of entry time plates.

 

Thanks again.

 

Hi guys, I'm back. I'm really getting into this matter and have dug up the following on my own.

 

This link is to a diagram of accepted CPZ signs and it's variants. The sign in question is sign 663 and it must have a time plate at the bottom which: may be omitted where restrictions apply at all times - They only apply 8:00 - 18:00 in this whole area so I've got them haven't I??

[Jamberson]

This is getting technical now. If the council website directs motorists to the p&d machines for the times, then the situation is probably not accidental. Can they post times on the machines and not on signs? I don't know - pay & display zones are rare - I've never seen one - so it's hard to know what the regulations might be.

 

I think it's worth fighting along the lines you suggest. Even if legally they can do this, it's sufficiently obscure to justify taking the case - you could end up with a winning ruling at adjudication. I wouldn't be surprised. And of course there's always the possibility that the signage is inadequate, as I initially thought.

[TheWatcherxx99]

This is getting technical now. If the council website directs motorists to the p&d machines for the times, then the situation is probably not accidental. Can they post times on the machines and not on signs? I don't know - pay & display zones are rare - I've never seen one - so it's hard to know what the regulations might be.

 

I think it's worth fighting along the lines you suggest. Even if legally they can do this, it's sufficiently obscure to justify taking the case - you could end up with a winning ruling at adjudication. I wouldn't be surprised. And of course there's always the possibility that the signage is inadequate, as I initially thought.

 

It is indeed getting technical, especially for my day off too. I've taken a stroll around the area and the times DO change, however there are no reminder times or notifications that new times are in place so it is on that basis that I shall appeal it