Help before I pay baillifs

[funkyp]

I've recently had a high court writ served against me for the following sums

Judgement Debt: £675.63 and Judgement Costs: £125.70

 

The debt is a private debt for goods supplied.

 

I've had a two official visits from Rossendales High Court enforcement. They have also visited my property 3 times in addition to this without knocking the door. On two occasions the bailiff sat outside my property for around 30 mins. I have not dealt directly with the bailiff David Williams. And have kept all windows and doors locked.

 

They tried to levy 2 vehicles on my drive which I use for self employment. In my view the levy doesn't stand.

 

They are asking for the following fees.

 

HCEO Fees:

 

Percentage of monies recovered: £22.53

Mileage: £13.19

Seizure Fee: £2

Enquiries: £4

Inventory/Valuation Fee: £47.76

Admin fee: £100

Financial Management Fee: £50

First Attendance Fee: £100

 

I have managed to secure the funds to pay the debt and the fees in full. However, I think the fees are excessive so have not called to make payment yet.

 

I have written to Rossendales lodging a formal complaint that the fees are excessive and that the levy is invalid. They refuse to acknowledge my complaints and that the vehicles are for self employment.

I have now contacted their trade association with the details.

 

All the while whilst this is going on it's affecting my business and my day to day life. I'm having to hide my vehicles and i'm worried about incurring further visits and costs not to mention the stress. All I want to do is get it cleared up but I don't want to be paying more than I need to as I'm struggling as it is.

 

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

P

[fork-it]

Your bailiff isnt certificated http://certificatedbailiffs.justice.gov.uk/CertificatedBailiffs/searchPublic.do?search=David so he may be just an HCEO. This means he cannot enter your property without permission.

 

I wouldnt take too much notice of the fees. Just dispute them.

 

The law prescribing fees chargeable by a High Court Enforcement Officer (HCEO) for collecting unpaid debts is Schedule 3 of Regulation 13 of The High Court Enforcement Officers Regulations 2004.

 

Where the sum due is £100 or less - 5%

Above £100 - 2.5%

Mileage Charges - 29.2p per mile Max £50

Seizure of goods - £2 per site

Signed Walking possession agreement fee - £3.25 a day

 

Its common practice for HCEOs to charge additional fees according to a list and pretend the debtor is liable to pay them. This is not true and you simply dont have the pay them at all.

 

There is the old HCEO's chestnut of adding fees described as "misc" or "miscellaneous". He is trying to use Section 12 of Schedule 3 of the regulations which actually reads:

 

"For any matter not otherwise provided for, such sum as a Master, district judge or costs judge may allow upon application."

 

This is essentially a blank cheque clause because it enables bailiffs to load his fees ad-infinitum then pretend an application has already been made to a Master or a district judge who has allowed the costs. HCEOs tend to do this retrospectively by charging as much as they think they can get away with then leave it up to you to challenge it afterwards, which is almost impossible to reclaim once you have paid it.

 

In short, dispute it, do not pay it and its a civil dispute between you and the HCEO. Additionally, you do not have to let them into your property so keep the chain on the door at all times and you are not obligated to speak with him.

[funkyp]

Many thanks for your response fork-it.

 

Yes, he is a HCEO

 

I have disputed the fees already in writing and they've argued that they are fair. Maybe I should mention to them about having to apply to the court for these. "For any matter not otherwise provided for, such sum as a Master, district judge or costs judge may allow upon application."

 

Should I ask for proof that they've done this or will the Enforcement Services Association do that for me as i've contacted them with details of the fees and case as a whole?

 

It still leaves me with the problem of having a writ served against me and me having to hide my cars. It's really starting to get on top of me as a close friend died yesterday and I just want it sorted so I can get on with my life.

 

I've got the money to pay for the judgement debt and costs in full but i've been advised that if I pay Rossendales they'll take the £400+ fees first still leaving the judgement debt and writ in place.

 

I've also got the money for the fees in full but really don't want to pay them or want them reduced to a reasonable level. I also don't want further fees added on top from further visits.

 

It's tying my head in knots. Any further advice would be greatly appreciated

Edited July 1, 2011 by funkyp
spelling and further info

[ploddertom]

Many thanks for your response fork-it.

 

Yes, he is a HCEO

 

I have disputed the fees already in writing and they've argued that they are fair. Maybe I should mention to them about having to apply to the court for these. "For any matter not otherwise provided for, such sum as a Master, district judge or costs judge may allow upon application." Not actually necessary

 

Should I ask for proof that they've done this or will the Enforcement Services Association do that for me as i've contacted them with details of the fees and case as a whole? Sorry but this is the wrong Trade Assoc - you need the HCEOA, but it's a pointless exercise as all the trade bodies are self funded by their membership.

 

It still leaves me with the problem of having a writ served against me and me having to hide my cars. It's really starting to get on top of me as a close friend died yesterday and I just want it sorted so I can get on with my life.

 

I've got the money to pay for the judgement debt and costs in full but i've been advised that if I pay Rossendales they'll take the £400+ fees first still leaving the judgement debt and writ in place. Have you tried the sneaky one - seeing if the original Claimant will accept the cash?

I've also got the money for the fees in full but really don't want to pay them or want them reduced to a reasonable level. I also don't want further fees added on top from further visits. The majority of the HCEO fees can be challenged.

It's tying my head in knots. Any further advice would be greatly appreciated

 

PT

[fork-it]

I wouldnt even bother saying anyting to him, just tell him they are too high and there is no court order requireing you to pay them. Remind him he commits an offence under Section 40 of the Administration of Justice Act 1940 if he pretends to have a court order. The less you say the better.

 

I wouldnt bother writing to any trade associations, such as the Enforcement Services Association, they are private Ltd companies. Not industry regulators or statuutory bodies.

 

There is no such thing as a reasonable level, the law decides what the fees are. If he over charges you then dont pay him anything. Let him sue you.

[funkyp]

I wouldnt even bother saying anyting to him, just tell him they are too high and there is no court order requireing you to pay them. Remind him he commits an offence under Section 40 of the Administration of Justice Act 1940 if he pretends to have a court order. The less you say the better.

 

I wouldnt bother writing to any trade associations, such as the Enforcement Services Association, they are private Ltd companies. Not industry regulators or statuutory bodies.

 

There is no such thing as a reasonable level, the law decides what the fees are. If he over charges you then dont pay him anything. Let him sue you.

 

Again thanks so much for taking the time to reply. I completely agree with you regarding the fees and I dont want to pay them. However, this leaves me with the problem of settling the judgement debt. I DO want to pay this and the judgement costs now to get it cleared. I would imagine that if I try to pay the judgement off through rossendales they will use that money for their fees and the writ will not be removed. Is this a correct assumption? Ive tried to bypass them and pay the creditor directly but they wont accept it and tell me to do it through rossendales. Im very worried that if I leave it ill get a charge on my house. The creditor are taking me to court again in aug to claim for more fees and interest! They want £170 to stop there proceedings. As you can see they are making it very difficult and causing lots of stress for me.

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

I take it that the order was ''forthwith'' with no alternative payment, so did you default on the

time span for payment, warrants of execution are not normally immediately applied for.

[ploddertom]

You can of course submit 2 forms to the Court.

 

1 - N244 and apply for a Stay of Execution against the HCEO using the grounds that you cannot afford his fees + pending determination of your Variation application.

 

2 - N245 and apply for a Varaiation Order letting you pay at an affordable rate you can afford, you must submit I&E for this.

 

If you are on a low wage or certain benefits you may not have to pay the Court Fees - see Form EX160 for details.

 

PT

[jamese333]

I agree with the advice you've been given here so far and think that if you do have the money for the judgment debt then try to get it paid directly to the Creditor and get a receipt from them. Is it a business or private individual that you owe? If it is a business you might try dealing directly with the accounts department - they very rarely turn down the chance to take a payment, especially if it is past due - often the people in these departments are targeted on collections so will take the money and ask few questions, but really important to get a receipt! Even if it is an individual see if they will take the payment from you.

 

Beyond that work out what you agree with regarding the HCEO fees - pay that and then write to them to confirm that the judgment debt has been settled in full, along with the fees that you believe they are due accourding to the fee schedule and that the balance remains in dispute.

 

Much as I despise the heavy handed approach of the HCEOs and creative accounting abilities when it comes to fees that Enron would have been proud of, you may want to consider trying to settle with them once you have paid the judgment debt and the element of fees that they are legitimately entitled to. If it is causing you grief now then you need to be prepared for the possibility of a protracted battle with them which you should balance against a figure today that will restore your peace of mind.

 

I speak from the experience of a 3 year battle with HCE but then I am a stubborn git at the best of times with an unhealthy interest in the intricacies of law...

 

Good luck!