muggins73 v NatWest ***WON***

[muggins73]

Unfortunately, Natwests defence arrived this morning, boo-hoo:(

It appears to look pretty much like the average response everyone else has received.....'that the claimant (moi) does not properly particularise her claim, no admissions as to what charges have been debited (although they have had at the very least three sets of updated schedule of charges!!) lar-de, dar-de, dar. Signed by the infamous Lynsey Burgoyne (now I know I'm in the zone!!)

I understand that the court will now issue me with an Allocation Questionnaire (which, I have already taken the liberty of completing online), and providing they don't whisk me off to court, I'll be screaming 'show me the money' anytime soon

The covering lettter attached to their lame defence asks me to acknowledge receipt, do I do so, or just let them sweat a bit..seeing as though it's crimbo an all?

[Allyxia]

Yep all on track hon - take care - and youll be spend happy soon!!

[muggins73]

Can anyone advise me as to whether wot has happened by way of the order of things is normal:confused:? By this, I mean that cobbetts have made a goodwill gesture, then submitted their defence with no CPR 18 request, I am now waiting for the court to send me an AQ. I've read other threads whereby this has not been the order of things. Am I panicing slightly, for no good reason?

[PLucky]

I had no CPR 18 request either. Mine has gone the same way as yoours as well. Maybe they know we have grown wise to the CPR 18 bit.

[natwesttookmymoney]

Hi, Muggins

You are panicking slightly, for no good reason.

Hope that makes you feel better!

They can make an offer right up to the corridor outside the courtroom, on the day of a hearing, if there was one and if they felt so inclined. So don't worry about the strange order. Who knows what they're thinking? As for the CPR (or rather, no CPR) dinnae fash. If they don't ask for one you won't be put to the bother of writing back to them that their request is intimidatory - so they'll have saved you a stamp and some printer ink.

Marvellous!

Possibly, the Courts have got cheesed off with them asking for CPR on small claims. Or maybe the letters that several people sent to the Law Society, complaining about it, got through. But who knows?

Anyway, look at your PM box - you have a wee bit present there. If you're happy with it, post it up. Except for my name, of course!!

 

Westy

[Lager_Lou]

Also - it sounds identical to the way my claim has progressed - goodwill gesture, defence not including a CPR18, allocation questionnaire and now... waiting.

 

Don't worry!

 

And yes, do acknowledge receipt - just one line will suffice, but it's only polite to do so!

[Deller]

Exactly the same scenario as mine muggins, so don't go panicing. I know that sometimes it just makes it feel better when somewhen else tells you it's OK even when you know it is.

 

I had the same order of proceedings as you and recieved my full payout 15 days after the AQ deadline, although the cheque was actually written out a week and a half earlier.......can't be too much longer for you now.

[Allyxia]

Hi Muggins just to add on your thread - dont panic!!!!

 

and for all you other who dont know -Im playing sweet revenge on Cobblers.

 

AS you may or may not be aware they are due in court on 21st Dec, but as they have settled Ineed to submitt my notice of discontinuation.

 

But do you know what My babies are poorly I wont be able to get it too the court until the day before - poor old cobblers have writen to me - I think they are panicing now what do you think!!!

 

This ones for us all guys!!!!

[Deller]

Nice one Ally....think I might do the same. LOL

[muggins73]

Re: DEFENCE RECEIVED

Quote:

Originally Posted by muggins73

Hi guys,

As you may have already seen posted, those horrible chaps at NatWest have submitted their defence.

It all seems a load of 'ole cods' wollop, very much std stuff, but one thing that keeps cropping up is 'SGSA s15'. For a mere beginner such as myself, wot the hell is it, and do I have anything to worry about?

I am aware that the court will now issue me with an Allocation Questionnaire to fill in, I just have to wait, but do I have to send Cobbetts a brief letter acknowledging receipt of their lame excuse for a defence, as they've requested? I really do not feel like being polite, after all, they are not playing ball

Look forward to your response.

Thanking you in advance, Muggins.

 

Hi, Michelle

 

SGSA is the Supply of Goods and Services Act and S15 is Section 15. Download a standard court bundle from the site and you'll find it includes a copy.

 

Section 15 reads:

 

15 Implied term about consideration

(1) Where, under a contract for the supply of a service, the consideration for the service is not determined by the contract, left to be determined in a manner agreed by the contract or determined by the course of dealing between the parties, there is an implied term that the party contracting with the supplier will pay a reasonable charge.

(2) What is a reasonable charge is a question of fact.

 

 

It may be that you're among the first to get his: it indicates they're going to go for the 'service' argument, as Angela Knight indicated on the Money Programme. We know that's b*ll*cks. Here's something I included in my extended particulars of claim, which I hope will pre-empt them coming up with that line:

 

"4. The Claimant contends that:

 

a) The charges debited to the Account are punitive in nature; are not genuine pre-estimates of costs incurred by the Defendant; exceed any alleged actual loss to the Defendant in respect of any breaches of contract on the part of the Claimant; and are not intended to represent or related to any alleged actual loss, but instead unduly enrich the Defendant which exercises the contractual term in respect of such charges with a view to profit.

 

b) The contractual provision that permits the Defendant to levy such charges is unenforceable by virtue of

i) the Unfair Terms In Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 particularly but not limited to Regulations 5, 6 and 8 and Schedule 2, 1 e); and

ii); the Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977, particularly but not limited to sections 3 and 11 and Schedule 2 and;

iii) the common law and Case Law relating to liquidated damages and penalties in contracts.

 

c) To the extent that it is found that the Defendant’s charges are for the provision of banking services the Claimant contends that the price thereof is unreasonable pursuant to section 15 of the Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982."

 

AND:

 

"The Claimant avers that the Provisions relating to “Service Charges and “Additional Services and Charges” provide no details whatever of the extent or type of services that might be provided and that it was not clear from the contract to the Claimant at the time the contract was made that the Defendant would be providing anything other than a free banking service. Further, the leaflets setting out charges referred to therein were not made available to the Claimant at the time the contract with the Defendant was made and are therefore not incorporated into the contract. To the extent that they may be found to be so incorporated and therefore form part of the contract between the Claimant and the Defendant the Claimant avers that the items referred to in such leaflets do not constitute service charges but punitive penalty or default charges for acts of default. Further the Claimant contends that these show that the Defendant has structured the Claimant’s accounts in order to present events of default spuriously as additional services for which a charge may be made and that any purported fees for “services” or “additional services” are no more than disguised penalties. The Claimant avers that no additional services are supplied by the Defendant in relation to acts of default or at all.

 

f) The Claimant further avers that the sole discretion referred to in the provision relating to Operations on the Account does not refer to or make clear that the Defendant is providing an additional banking service to the Claimant in exercising that discretion, nor that a charge for such alleged “service” will be made. The Claimant also contends that the discretion referred to is limited to allowing payments to be made where insufficient funds are or were in the Account and therefore relates only to the Defendant’s “paid referral fee” and that this discretion has no connection with fees applied immediately for refusing payments or for unarranged borrowing/excess borrowing fees applied later to the Account for being overdrawn or exceeding any overdraft limit in the preceding month, card misuse fees or other fees.

 

g) the Claimant further avers that the ‘sole discretion’ referred to involves no actual discretion or intervention by the Defendant the Defendant’s staff but is an automated process, conducted by computers or other electronic equipment purchased in whole or in part for the purpose and is used in this manner in the management of all the Defendant’s personal and/or business banking accounts."

 

I think it would be a good idea to post your query and this response (plus any others you get) on your thread. As you know, Deller, Alyx, Innocent (increasingly) and the rest of the established gang are pretty cute. Plus it would be a good idea to get others looking at it, to help you prepare. And it would be good to let other people know this is happening.

 

But DO NOT let it affect your Christmas. As I recall, you have some kids who are really looking forward to it, which makes your day that much more enjoyable, too.

 

Just the three? The Alien Queen would have knocked out 3000 by now!

 

Take it easy,

NATWESTTOOKMYMONEY

[muggins73]

I had no CPR 18 request either. Mine has gone the same way as yoours as well. Maybe they know we have grown wise to the CPR 18 bit.

 

Hi, Muggins

You are panicking slightly, for no good reason.

Hope that makes you feel better!

They can make an offer right up to the corridor outside the courtroom, on the day of a hearing, if there was one and if they felt so inclined. So don't worry about the strange order. Who knows what they're thinking? As for the CPR (or rather, no CPR) dinnae fash. If they don't ask for one you won't be put to the bother of writing back to them that their request is intimidatory - so they'll have saved you a stamp and some printer ink.

Marvellous!

Possibly, the Courts have got cheesed off with them asking for CPR on small claims. Or maybe the letters that several people sent to the Law Society, complaining about it, got through. But who knows?

Anyway, look at your PM box - you have a wee bit present there. If you're happy with it, post it up. Except for my name, of course!!

 

Westy

 

Also - it sounds identical to the way my claim has progressed - goodwill gesture, defence not including a CPR18, allocation questionnaire and now... waiting.

 

Don't worry!

 

And yes, do acknowledge receipt - just one line will suffice, but it's only polite to do so!

 

Exactly the same scenario as mine muggins, so don't go panicing. I know that sometimes it just makes it feel better when somewhen else tells you it's OK even when you know it is.

 

I had the same order of proceedings as you and recieved my full payout 15 days after the AQ deadline, although the cheque was actually written out a week and a half earlier.......can't be too much longer for you now.

 

Hi Muggins just to add on your thread - dont panic!!!!

 

and for all you other who dont know -Im playing sweet revenge on Cobblers.

 

AS you may or may not be aware they are due in court on 21st Dec, but as they have settled Ineed to submitt my notice of discontinuation.

 

But do you know what My babies are poorly I wont be able to get it too the court until the day before - poor old cobblers have writen to me - I think they are panicing now what do you think!!!

 

This ones for us all guys!!!!

Thanks to all of you guys!!!

Panicing is averted.

I am now in full go get 'em mode, muggins is back on track:)

Will send cobblers one line of acknowledgement and get ready for the next stage.

Will, as always, keep you posted.

[Allyxia]

you go girl

[muggins73]

OK, so I'm waiting for the AQ from the court, once received do I submit an extended POC (as per westys' post) along with this or along with my court bundle?

[Allyxia]

I odnt know anything about extended POC?

 

Speak to westy about that!!!!

[natwesttookmymoney]

Hi, Muggins

 

Sorry - been out getting Christmas tree, engraved trophy (the surprise one - I thought my village golf team was going to be tanked but we won) and recceing the shops for the Friday blast.

 

Anyway, my understanding is that you don't send this in as the AQ - this is a response to their defence. I believe - though my head is full of the scent of pine at the moment - you should send it to them and copy in the court.

 

It may be an idea to see the full defence so we can be certain you're getting everything.

 

If yoou ask nicely (or even at all) I may even send you my entire full (which is what I meant by extended) particulars of claim. Could be useful as I've watched what other people have had thrown at them and I've tried to pre-empt them. So things that would often be in a defence response are already there.

 

Either e-mail or PM, I don't mind - but you ay need to be sure you've got ink in your printer!

 

Westy

[natwesttookmymoney]

Muggins -

There's a thread rbrears did that has got some great suggestions - including amending POCs. Have a look at it (Reply to stock defence and Part 18 issues) - you may even recognise some of the wordings.....

 

He got the bank to agree to amend the POC, without charge - and they coughed up shortly afterwards!!

Grrrrreeeeaattt!

Westy

[muggins73]

Hi, Muggins

 

Sorry - been out getting Christmas tree, engraved trophy (the surprise one - I thought my village golf team was going to be tanked but we won) and recceing the shops for the Friday blast.

 

Anyway, my understanding is that you don't send this in as the AQ - this is a response to their defence. I believe - though my head is full of the scent of pine at the moment - you should send it to them and copy in the court.

 

It may be an idea to see the full defence so we can be certain you're getting everything.

 

If yoou ask nicely (or even at all) I may even send you my entire full (which is what I meant by extended) particulars of claim. Could be useful as I've watched what other people have had thrown at them and I've tried to pre-empt them. So things that would often be in a defence response are already there.

 

Either e-mail or PM, I don't mind - but you ay need to be sure you've got ink in your printer!

 

Westy

 

 

Congrats on winning at golf!

Smelling of pine needles is lovely, it's when you find them where the sun doesn't shine is when you have a problem!! LOL

Have sent cobblers a one sentence letter acknowledging their defence, will it be okay to send them another letter with the 'extended POC' ?

I'll scan their defence and then send it to you anyway that'll work!!! Good job the printer has just had it's cartridges filled, and are ready for action, jackson:D

Thanks for your input, always a pleasure doing business with you!!!

Muggins -

There's a thread rbrears did that has got some great suggestions - including amending POCs. Have a look at it (Reply to stock defence and Part 18 issues) - you may even recognise some of the wordings.....

 

He got the bank to agree to amend the POC, without charge - and they coughed up shortly afterwards!!

Grrrrreeeeaattt!

Westy

 

Having trouble opening link that you've provided me with, trying to locate rbrears thread to sift through but am having an equally difficult time..will pursevere (I think that's how you spell it?)

[muggins73]

Muggins -

There's a thread rbrears did that has got some great suggestions - including amending POCs. Have a look at it (Reply to stock defence and Part 18 issues) - you may even recognise some of the wordings.....

 

He got the bank to agree to amend the POC, without charge - and they coughed up shortly afterwards!!

Grrrrreeeeaattt!

Westy

 

Found it:)

Have copied and pasted it onto a word document ready for editing.

Will scan in cobblers defence, and fwd to you, somehow, and as promised, for your expertise (which is very much appreciated). Not at this time at night, need to retreat to my pit, I'm exhausted.

Catch you tomorrow.

[natwesttookmymoney]

It's always a delight to hear from you. Not like some I could mention (see the 'contractual interest thread - I fear I lost my temper)

But - tomorrow is - another day!

Westy

[Allyxia]

Dontlet them get you down westy - although I concur there are some edjets on here.

 

Thankfully with others like you, dellar and dayglo keep me going!!!!

 

This is way Ilike topass it on and help others like muggins - after all we all should be supporting people and sharign new ideas not lambasting people!

[muggins73]

It's always a delight to hear from you. Not like some I could mention (see the 'contractual interest thread - I fear I lost my temper)

But - tomorrow is - another day!

Westy

 

Dontlet them get you down westy - although I concur there are some edjets on here.

 

Thankfully with others like you, dellar and dayglo keep me going!!!!

 

This is way Ilike topass it on and help others like muggins - after all we all should be supporting people and sharign new ideas not lambasting people!

 

You are both far too kind!!!! I feel all cosy and warm inside:D

[Allyxia]

hee hee thanks!!!!

[natwesttookmymoney]

That must be it - and I thought it was the central heating!

 

W

[Allyxia]

Group hugsssssssssss

[muggins73]

Group hugsssssssssss

 

Definately, a group hug moment:)

 

I'm probably gonna be out of action over the crimbo period as I've got a hord of relatives descending on my humble abode (santa, help me!), so I will bid my two best buddies (yes, that is you Ally and Westy!!!) a festive farewell and to, to all my fellow comrades.

 

HAVE A GREAT CHRISTMAS, BE SEEING YOU ON THE OTHER SIDE

 

An extra ho-ho for me, as I've just made it to classic account status!!!!!!!!