HSBC endowment mortgage - Extending term? endowments haven't paid enough

[DesperateSusan]

As was fashionable 25 years ago, I took out a mortgage which was to be paid interest only with the capital being paid off by a endowment insurance policy.

 

When I took it out the endowment it was explained to me that it may not pay off fully, so going the compensation route was not a option.

 

8 or 10 years ago I tried to put something in place, but with the global credit crunch and our own credit crunch this has not been successful.

 

I'm not at the point where I need to pay about £10,000 off and have no money to do so.

 

I am asking the bank (HSBC) to extend the mortgage - we have two mortgages with them, the other a repayment type has 9 years to run - so they both are paid up at the same time.

 

The problem is our credit history. With a CCJ and several defaulted credits cards it doesn't look good.

 

Although we can afford the payment if the mortgage is extended, the bank may not see past our history.

 

Also, the amount we're looking to keep borrowing - both mortgages together - is less than our annual income, so we should score well on that.

 

Anyway, stopping rambling, should HSBC decide against us, what are our options regarding mortgages with bad credit?

 

Thanks,

 

Sue

[citizenB]

Have you explained to HSBC that this is the situation ? They should see past your credit history if you are able to show that you can maintain the payments. I think, in your favour, you have that 2nd mortgage/home owner loan and that it has a good time to run yet.

 

Make an appointment with the Mortgage advisor as soon as possible.

[DesperateSusan]

Thanks CitizenB.

 

I have an appointment tomorrow and will prepare as much as I can before hand.

 

This thread was looking towards a plan-b.

 

I did speak to an IFA a while back about it - his comment was that banks are being tricky with mortgages and HSBC is amoung the worst. I mentioned this to the HSBC mortgage advisor in a pre-lim meeting. She said the IFA would say that as HSBC don't pay them commision.

 

I hate all this stuff. It seems life used to be so simpler.

 

Thanks again,

 

Sue

[citizenB]

It is my understanding that ALL mortgage providers are to look sensibly and responsibly at homeowners who have suffered this problem.

 

Have HSBC cancelled collections for the interest from your account ? There is something that is called forebearance, I dont quite understand it, I think it is an informal arrangement to pay an amount off the balance. I would be inclined to ask for a similar repayment arrangement to that of your homeowner loan.

 

Please let us know how you get on. On the basis that they are unreasonable and dont offer you a way round this.. then we may be able to help further.

 

You dont want to speak to a Financial Advisor.. you need to speak to a Mortgage advisor

[DesperateSusan]

Thanks, CitizenB,

 

I think he was a mortgage advisor, just clumsy on my part here.

 

The mortgage is due to be paid in May - I currently pay by standing order. I have increased the payments to something like what it would be if the term was extended and paid off over the term, to show we can afford it.

 

We'll see if the SO goes through in May.

 

Thanks again, CitizenB, you have put my mind at ease. I love that delightfully old-fashioned word "forebearance".

 

Sue

[citizenB]

Just keep making the payments, it looks good and shows that you are determined to repay : Best of luck.

[DesperateSusan]

Well I had the meeting. Here's what I found out:

 

1) HSBC have a scheme for dealing with this - if the loan will be paid off within 24 months, by some sort of lump sum coming in, eg an maturing insurance policy or something like that, then they will extend the term of the mortgage until that time. This is not a scheme for making over-payments and getting the thing cleared in 24 months.

 

2) If you want to extend the term it requires a new mortgage application.

 

3) If the mortgage application is declined it will go to collections, but - and I think this is unfair - all mortgages you have with HSBC will be put to collections even if you have only got problems with one. At least that is what the HSBC mortgage advisor told me.

 

So, I applied for the new mortgage and was declined because of my credit history.

 

My application has now been sent to some team so a person, other than the mortgage advisor in the branch, can look and make a decision.

 

Hoping and praying!

 

Sue

[DesperateSusan]

Hi,

 

it is a condition of my mortgages with HSBC that the payments are made via direct debit. When my credit crunch hit I cancelled all direct debits and started paying everything in cash. Advice on this forum led me to it, it kept me in control of where my money went and when.

 

This included my mortgages. It was hilarious going to a branch with a handful of £20 pound notes to be told that they couldn't take cash for a mortgage payment. Everytime I asked to see the manager and everytime the cashier worked out a wau of doing it without calling the manager.

 

Anyway, our finances are now more stable, and I have been paying the mortgage using standing orders - I'm still in control, but I don't have to drive into town any more.

 

So, finally, my question is this: is the DD stipulation in the mortgage agreement upholdable in law? Has it ever been challenged under the unfair terms in consumer contracts laws?

 

Thanks,

 

Sue

Edited May 1, 2011 by DesperateSusan
spelling

[BSC]

If it's in the terms of the agreement then it may well be enforceable.

 

That said, if their accepting standing orders and not chasing you about reinstating a DD I'd just forget about it.

[DesperateSusan]

Thanks.

 

Its the "may well be" that I'm questioning. Just because something is in a contract even a contract I have signed doesn't not make it enforceable as the contract is subject to the law of the land.

 

I did have some hassle from them about it in the past - they (HSBC) lied to me about aspects of this and my mortgage situation is somewhat precarious at the moment, so I'm looking at many aspects of it.

 

Sue

[ANGELDAVE]

I've been paying my HSBC mortage(s) through my HSBC flexi saver account for nearly 3 years now. Yes its a pain, but I'm in total control. I have to call the mortgage dept every month to transfer the money over. I log in to my online account and watch as the money is taken. From time to time they ask me whether I want to set up a DD but have never insisted or made it an issue. Perhaps because I'm filtering the money through one of their accounts they are turning a blind eye to a contractual DD mortgage payment method?

[DesperateSusan]

Thanks AngelDave,

 

it may be because you use an HSBC account.

 

About a year ago HSBC called me specifically to say I should have a DD setup. In fact the HSBC person overstated their position and stated that it was a requirement from the FSA that meant that they had to have this clause in their contract.

 

I queried this statement and eventually had a letter of apology for the incorrect information, but the letter also stated I should have a DD and included the forms.

 

Here's another tale from HSBC - and the main reason I avoid using DDs - I recently changed the day of the month I would be making payment from late in the month to early in the month. I made the payment for that month early in the month and wrote them a letter advising what I had done.

 

I received a letter from them saying that the next month's payment would be more than usual as it included more than one month payment. I queried this - that had not taken into account that I had already paid, even though it was in the letter I sent! 7 phone calls later they still couldn't understand why their number was wrong and the day before I was due to make the payment I was still arguing with them as to the amount that should be paid.

 

If I had a DD, they would have had £200 of my money that wasn't theirs and I'd have a right hard job getting it back.

 

Its better to argue when you still have the money.

 

I'd like to challenge the DD clause - I'm at a difficult situation regarding my mortgage - it would be foolish to do so at the current time.

 

Sue

[DesperateSusan]

Well, I heard today that HSBC will not extend the term of the mortgage because of my credit history.

 

Even though I currently over pay every month, can show that I have commitments that are coming to an end in a few months and in a few years. At the end of the month it will be handed over to their collections department. Sigh.

 

This means it will cost them more to collect the money and I'll have a bad mortgage marker added to my credit profile. (Not to mention having to deal with incompetent liars).

 

Furthermore, they won't out this in writing!

 

I have taken some advice from an independent mortgage advisor who suggests I write to HSBC stating that I think they are not dealing fairly with my account and suggesting/implying/threatening to go to the FSA.

 

I think I can write such a letter, but I tend not to be very forthright in my language. What would be useful would be some text relating to FSA's (or whoever's) "fair and reasonable" treatment of customers re regard to mortgages or in general.

 

Thank you for your help,

 

Sue

[citizenB]

I dont think they can put the Homeowner loan to collections if it is not in default.

 

When exactly are you going to hit a problem.. eg.. when is your endowment paying out and will it go directly to HSBC or to you to forward on ?

 

I would stick to your guns, continue to pay the interest + an extra amount into the mortgage account once you have repaid in the lump sum.

[DesperateSusan]

Thanks, CitizenB!

 

The endowment paid out last year and cleared a good chunk, but not all of it. I'm not expecting any further endowment payouts.

 

The mortgage is due to be paid back near the end of this month. If I don't pay it back then I am in breach of contract and they could default me, then put it through to collections.

 

I'd like to avoid this, obviously lol

 

HSBC are being idiots in all this - I have never missed a payment, even when things were tough (they still are, but not as) - I have a good record on mortgage payments, but they don't like the CCJ and charge against the property (in their name) and the 9k on an HSBC credit card that I haven't paid into for a couple of years.

 

I know my credit history is wrecked, but give us a break!

 

There seems no way for it not to go to collections at this time I'll keep paying and hope collection accept what I'm paying and don't behave like ********s.

 

Sue

[DesperateSusan]

Hi,

 

I sent a SAR to HSBC specifically about a visa credit card.

 

I have had a response from them saying that as I didn't sign the letter the bank is unable to act upon my instructions at present.

 

They have returned my postal order.

 

They ask me to send a new signed request.

 

 

Is this right? I thought I had read that the request didn't have to be signed, but I have failed to find that in a search here.

 

Is there a standard reply to this?

 

Thank you,

 

Sue

[cerberusalert]

A signature is not a legal requirement.

 

Send it back and tell them you'll pick the documents up from a branch and provide i.d there.

[DesperateSusan]

Thanks, but they make no mention of problems with sending it to me, just they cannot act because of a lack of signature.

 

I'd rather not have it sent to a bank - I'm not sure I can lay my hands on any photo id.

 

Regards,

 

Sue

[cerberusalert]

You could edit the letter below adding that you'll pick up the SAR from a branch.

 

Dear Sir,

 

You have stipulated that you require proof of my identity/signature before you comply with my SAR, may I bring the following to your attention;

Data Protection Act Good Practice Notes:

 

2. Do you have enough information to be sure of the requester’s identity?

Often you will have no reason to doubt a person’s identity. For example, if a person with whom you have regular contact sends a letter from their known address it may be safe to assume that they are who they say they are.

 

Suffice to say that if the Information Commissioners Office are satisfied that if you have previously corresponded with me at this address then it is reasonable that I am the person I say I am, therefore there is no leglislation nor guidelines that you can hide behind in an attempt to avoid fullfilling my legal request.

 

If you still fail to comply to my legal request, I will have no other option than to complain to the Information Commissioners Office & if my complaint is upheld you will be liable to a fine.

 

Yours,

Print name do not sign.

http://www.ico.gov.uk/upload/documents/library/data_protection/practical_application/checklist_for_handling_requests_for_personal_information.pdf

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=8861&d=1242456802

 

https://www.ico.gov.uk/Global/contact_us.aspx

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Select committee on Trade and Industry minutes of evidence

(1996 Legislative working party)

 

2. The working party looked at the legal issues regarding the terms document, writing, signature, instrument, and records of transactions and originality. The Government's current proposed legislation focuses particularly upon the issue of signature. The working party considered the leading case in English law on signature methods, Goodman -v- J Eban Limited. That decision established that:

 

2.1 mechanical signatures using rubber stamps, printing or typewriting were valid in english law;

2.2 a signature can be by a mark rather than a name as long as evidence can be given to indentify the placer of the mark and the intention to sign; and

2.3 words other than a name can amount to a signature if the necessary intention to sign can be proven

 

Now although this working party was looking into the Electronics Commerce Bill it points to . .

 

Goodman v J Eban Ltd (1954)

 

A solicitor signed a solicitors bill with a rubber stamp which contained the name of the law firm. In the judgment it was determined that the rubber stamp was a valid signature, even theough the Solicitors Act of 1932 required a solicitors bill to be signed; it was established that it is enough to demonstrate that the rubber stamp was affixed by the solicitor with the intention to sign the solicitor's bill.

 

So now taking the highlights above I go to:

 

Interpretations act 1978

 

Schedule 1

 

1973 c.37.

 

"Writing" includes typing, lithograpgy, photography or other modes of representing or reproducing words in a visible form and expressions refering to writing can be construed accordingly

[cerberusalert]

Do you have a passport or drivers license? Although a photo i.d is not a requirement either.

[DesperateSusan]

Passport is way out of date and my driving licence is of the old type (giving away clues to my age lol) - no photo.

 

Thanks for the letter template. I'll amend it and use it.

 

Sue

[cerberusalert]

A photo i.d is not absolutely necessary, utility bills, letters from tax credit, council tax bill etc are all sufficient.

[MrZ]

I had the same exact problem...at first. I sent them a nice letter and suddenly they were more willing to comply. I will dig out the post and link you to it as soon as I find it.

[MrZ]

Here is the thread I started on the same topic. The letter I sent to them might be helpful.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?304404-HSBC-reponse-letter-to-my-Subject-Access-request-comments-advice-please&p=3405159#post3405159

[DesperateSusan]

Thanks, MrZ

 

Interesting that my letter from them is different and there was no form to fill in.

 

They also returned the postal order, which interestingly had a "received on" stamp on the back, to which I referred in my letter to them.

 

Lets see what they come back with.

 

Sue

Edited June 24, 2011 by DesperateSusan