How the NHS is blowing the taxpayers money .

[Mactireuk]

Bureaucracy !! , or in laymans terms verbal diarrhoea !!.

Staff within the nhs are forced onto courses that have no relevance in the normal work place .

For instance .

1. Eksf Appraisals : Before you are appraised by your respective manager , you are recquired to go online , onto something called the eksf website which the NHS pay for through a private company . And staff are recquired to spend hours writing at least 500 words per evidence of which their are ten .

Also recquired is objectives , this can run into several days work , taking them away from the jobs they are recquired to do .

2. Mentorship Degree's : This is a classic this one . Currently trainee nurses and some handpicked nurses whether they have 20plus years within the NHS or just out of school are recquired to do a degree in mentorship .

By September 2011 it will be compulsory for every nurse to do this degree .

Now being ex forces I was always lead to believe mentors were hand chosen for their knowledge & experience . And it was something that could not be taught , but no . The penpushers in the NHS in their infinite wisdom has decided that every nurse throughout the country recquires to be taught how to be a mentor .

Aint that what Ward Sisters used to be , Mentors ?. Now millions of the NHS budget is to be wasted on this course . Taking nurses away from their patients to study

3. Spine Removal for Management within the NHS : Disciplinaries can take as long as they want , whenever they want . No matter how small the issue or how large , 6 months or even longer can be the case . This is due to Management not wishing or wanting to take a decision or knowing the proper procedures and blaming Human Resources . Who in turn blame the management .

This is of course outwith employment laws set up by the UK government , but the NHS is exempt ....

4. Paperwork is taking up so much time within the NHS that the majority of staff no longer class themselves as medical , but more clerical ,

 

This is from experience and not hearsay , and every year we hear that the NHS is short of cash .

Least they wont be short on toilet paper !!!

[zippygbr]

Bureaucracy !! , or in laymans terms verbal diarrhoea !!.

Staff within the nhs are forced onto courses that have no relevance in the normal work place .

For instance .

1. Eksf Appraisals : Before you are appraised by your respective manager , you are recquired to go online , onto something called the eksf website which the NHS pay for through a private company . And staff are recquired to spend hours writing at least 500 words per evidence of which their are ten .

 

and what in your 'expert' opinion is the reason not to base appraisals on as much appropriate evidence of performance as possible, given that we don't have the luxury for appraisers to work alongside appraisees in clinical practice ?

 

Also recquired is objectives , this can run into several days work , taking them away from the jobs they are recquired to do .

 

 

again how to you measure performance and professional. DEVELOPMENT progress if you don't have a benchmark ? time frames ? etc etc ...

 

2. Mentorship Degree's : This is a classic this one . Currently trainee nurses and some handpicked nurses whether they have 20plus years within the NHS or just out of school are recquired to do a degree in mentorship .

By September 2011 it will be compulsory for every nurse to do this degree .

there is a certain demand placed on organisations to provide a certain number of qualified Mentors to enable Student Nurses, other health care Professional students and trainee Associate Practitioners and trainees in the Assistant grades to get a good quality learning experience from their placements with appropriate support to meet learning outcomes, there is also a need for mentors within post registration clinical courses which are now usually at level 6 or 7 on the NQF

 

currently many Registered Nurses have a Supporting Learners in Practice / Mentorship award, one problem is that unless this is at level 6 or 7 on the NQF they will no longer be able to be 'sign off' mentors nor will they be able to mentor final year students once pre -registration education moves to the terminal academic award being a degree ( at NQF 6) rather than a DipHE at NQF 5, those Mentors who award is at NQF level equivalence i.e. C+G 730 x and the old 997/998 awards may have to upgrade to the level 6 version that those of us qualified in the last 10 -15 years did anyway either as part of 'topping up' diploma to degree or along side our post -reg degrees

 

Now being ex forces I was always lead to believe mentors were hand chosen for their knowledge & experience . And it was something that could not be taught , but no . The penpushers in the NHS in their infinite wisdom has decided that every nurse throughout the country recquires to be taught how to be a mentor .

can you actually provide proof of this assertion ?

 

Aint that what Ward Sisters used to be , Mentors ?. Now millions of the NHS budget is to be wasted on this course . Taking nurses away from their patients to study

 

all 5 days of contact teaching time ! compared to the hundreds of hours in supporting learners that each and every mentor does each year once qualified

 

3. Spine Removal for Management within the NHS : Disciplinaries can take as long as they want , whenever they want . No matter how small the issue or how large , 6 months or even longer can be the case . This is due to Management not wishing or wanting to take a decision or knowing the proper procedures and blaming Human Resources . Who in turn blame the management .

This is of course outwith employment laws set up by the UK government , but the NHS is exempt ....

 

that sounds like a problem with a specific manager in a specific organisation rather than something which is NHS wide

 

4. Paperwork is taking up so much time within the NHS that the majority of staff no longer class themselves as medical , but more clerical ,

 

This is from experience and not hearsay , and every year we hear that the NHS is short of cash .

Least they wont be short on toilet paper !!!

 

experience where ? because it doesn't sound anything like the NHS i work in ...

Edited March 15, 2011 by zippygbr
spellink and grammer!

[Night Owl]

Bureaucracy !! , or in laymans terms verbal diarrhoea !!.

Are you a disgruntled NHS worker?

Staff within the nhs are forced onto courses that have no relevance in the normal work place .

No we are not FORCED, we are in a professional job which requires us to keep up to date with current practices to enable us to provide an effective service.

For instance .

1. Eksf Appraisals : Before you are appraised by your respective manager , you are recquired to go online , onto something called the eksf website which the NHS pay for through a private company . And staff are recquired to spend hours writing at least 500 words per evidence of which their are ten .

Also recquired is objectives , this can run into several days work , taking them away from the jobs they are recquired to do .

Staff who participate in appraisals are given management time to cover this.

2. Mentorship Degree's : This is a classic this one . Currently trainee nurses and some handpicked nurses whether they have 20plus years within the NHS or just out of school are recquired to do a degree in mentorship .

By September 2011 it will be compulsory for every nurse to do this degree .

Now being ex forces I was always lead to believe mentors were hand chosen for their knowledge & experience . And it was something that could not be taught , but no . The penpushers in the NHS in their infinite wisdom has decided that every nurse throughout the country recquires to be taught how to be a mentor .

Aint that what Ward Sisters used to be , Mentors ?. Now millions of the NHS budget is to be wasted on this course . Taking nurses away from their patients to study

3. Spine Removal for Management within the NHS : Disciplinaries can take as long as they want , whenever they want . No matter how small the issue or how large , 6 months or even longer can be the case . This is due to Management not wishing or wanting to take a decision or knowing the proper procedures and blaming Human Resources . Who in turn blame the management .

This is of course outwith employment laws set up by the UK government , but the NHS is exempt ....

4. Paperwork is taking up so much time within the NHS that the majority of staff no longer class themselves as medical , but more clerical ,

Every job involves paperwork. Yes we have a lot to complete but it is relevant to the jobs we carry out and the multidisciplinary teams involved.

 

This is from experience and not hearsay , and every year we hear that the NHS is short of cash .

Least they wont be short on toilet paper !!!

 

becasue it doesn't sound anything like the NHS i work in ...

Nor me!!

[zippygbr]

As night owl points out, those Health Professionals in management roles in the NHS have time allocated for management activities, or like my last appraisal, it's done when the clinical area is relatively quiet ( i.e. 2 am after we've been and turned patients who need turning and checked drips, drains and catheter bags ... )

 

As for the OPs comments about 'forced' to do courses that are irrelevant, given it's hard enough to get the time to do relevant CPD activities, irrelevant learning activities really don't feature, perhaps as Night Owl suggests the OP is a disgruntled NHS worker who has either been 'left behind' professionally and really needs to think long and hard aobut their role or they are someone who quite simply 'does not know what they do not know'

 

some of the comments about ' not medical, more clerical' come from Junior Doctors who seem to forget that 'administrative' tasks, like rewriting prescriptions, doing discharge letters and reviewing test result ( prior to admin staff filing them ) are an essential part of care delivery, ditto for stuff like ordering blood tests and the like, yes the Nurses may be able to order them and often do if they have the time to do so, but it is part of your responsibility too ...

[Mactireuk]

Maybe your both management ?.

I dont work for the NHS , but I have quite a lot of friends & family with over 100 years service in the NHS . One is even a retired surgeon , who decided to retire early rather

than stay any longer .

Nightowl you quoted me regarding Mentorship degree's , but forgot to answer . Why is that ?.

Also staff are not given management time to deal with appraisals , unless of course you mean the unpaid work they also have to do at home after they finish their shifts ?.

So you agree 6 months for a simple disciplinary is acceptable in this day and age ?. I've worked in almost every sector imaginable , including the forces . And never in my long career have I

seen anything so antiquated and mismanaged .

In fact I've yet to meet a happy NHS member of staff with more than 10 years service . And it is indeed fact staff are forced on courses as they are compulsory , including the mentorship course .

September will be proof enough of this crazy paper pushing course in mentorship .You mention a certain amount of qualified staff to provide mentorship to student nurses . If you had read my post you wouldve learned I stated this course is & will be compulsory to "every" nurse , and its currently being taught to students as we speak in the school of nursing .

I doubt a student has enough experience or knowledge to comprehend on what being a mentor recquires .

Just remember your SWAT Analysis zippy when your sick of hearing it

On a final note you surmise far too much . The phrase clerical not medical actually came from a surgeon of 40 years service , and a ward sister of 27 years service . You both seem very defensive and far too critical .

I question your reasons .

[zippygbr]

Maybe your both management ?.

I dont work for the NHS , but I have quite a lot of friends & family with over 100 years service in the NHS . One is even a retired surgeon , who decided to retire early rather

than stay any longer .

 

so you admit you have NO direct experience.

 

No I'm not Management , i'm a 'front line' Health professional in my 'real life' NHS job, but i do have a management role with a voluntary healthcare organisation as well.

 

Nightowl you quoted me regarding Mentorship degree's , but forgot to answer . Why is that ?.

 

there is no place for ad hominems , while taking the 'Jeremy Kyle' approach may sometimes be necessary, there is no need to be 'Jeremy Paxman'

 

Also staff are not given management time to deal with appraisals , unless of course you mean the unpaid work they also have to do at home after they finish their shifts ?.

Staff are given management time to deal with appraisals , especially appraisers who may have a dozen or more appraisals to do, study and preparing for appraisals are about the only aspect of work that Health Professionals can do outside of work , as records cannot leave the premises

 

So you agree 6 months for a simple disciplinary is acceptable in this day and age ?. I've worked in almost every sector imaginable , including the forces . And never in my long career have I

seen anything so antiquated and mismanaged .

 

No it's not , but as both NightOwl and my self have stated this sounds to be a symptom of one organisation or even one manager in one organisation rather than the NHS wide problem you paint it to be.

 

In fact I've yet to meet a happy NHS member of staff with more than 10 years service .

 

really... that's odd as i could introduce you to many, even those of us who have a necessarily cynical view of many in lay management and the political meddling and clinically irrelevant crowd pleasing targets in service delivery we have suffered in the 'New Liar bore' epoch

 

And it is indeed fact staff are forced on courses as they are compulsory , including the mentorship course .

 

it may be part of the competent KSF profile for their role, in which case it is effectively compulsory as it would prevent incremental progression to the top of the band , it may also be that the organisation is at risk of losing placement provider status and the extra funding, joint appointments and so on this brings as well as a huge loss of face for management and the organisation

 

September will be proof enough of this crazy paper pushing course in mentorship .You mention a certain amount of qualified staff to provide mentorship to student nurses . If you had read my post you wouldve learned I stated this course is & will be compulsory to "every" nurse , and its currently being taught to students as we speak in the school of nursing .

 

proof of your assertion please ( second request )

 

also the vastest majority of experienced Registered Nurses should haver such a qualification, especially as it;s part of the job description and KSF profile for the generic band 5 role in many ? most if not all employing organisations.

 

This situation has bee nthe case for many many years, one issue at present however is that the qualification some older / longer in service staff have has been superseded and the rules surrounding completing assessments at NQF level 6 require the assesor / mentor to have a level 6 ( honours degree/ Bologna first cycle) or higher ( post graduate course) qualification

 

I doubt a student has enough experience or knowledge to comprehend on what being a mentor recquires .

 

I think you are underestimating the calibre of student Nurses and forgetting that senior students and new Registered Nurses are involved in the training and education of Junior Students and assistant / associate grades from very very early in their careers, i still look forward to the proof of your assertion that new graduates are coming out with a NMC approved SLiP award on registration.

 

Just remember your SWAT Analysis zippy when your sick of hearing it

On a final note you surmise far too much . The phrase clerical not medical actually came from a surgeon of 40 years service , and a ward sister of 27 years service . You both seem very defensive and far too critical .

I question your reasons .

 

I'm going to type this even though it may seem harsh but two words spring to mind ' left behind' , the past is a different country and they do things differently there, the fact is Current clinical practice is light years from what was happening 25 + years ago, and unfortunately you either keep up or fall by the wayside.

[Mactireuk]

Whilst I would love to waste my life away arguing with someone who is management at the end of the day , the fact still remains the old NHS worked .

The new NHS is vastly short staffed , and its budget is wasted year on out on unnecessary paperwork .

When a nurse , doctor etc is taken away from their respective job to cover the piles of paperwork on their desk for days on end , or courses that are unnecessary , then the patient obviously suffers .

You maybe the new face of the NHS , and love paperwork , and verbal diarrhoea personally , but those that put the patient first dont support you .

This is a consumer forum , and as you well know being a consumer means I have a right to an opinion being a taxpayer whether you like it or not , and being a non member of the NHS I will not put

my friends and family at risk by uncovering documents on here .

And as you well know , or live in ignorance , the NHS employs staff to investigate its members using the internet . And thats fact !!

Or maybe you didnt know that , seeing as your career is short .

And just because I do not work for the NHS , does it mean I am clueless ?, or is it your overly protective seeing as your management ?.

I dont apologise for hurting your feelings , next time you wish to respond to a post as someone wanted to voice an opinion on a consumer forum , and rightly so . Make less assumptions

and engage brain first

I know a helluva lot more than you think zippy , and trust me when l say this ,september the mentorship degree is compulsory .

It takes many years of knowledge , experience and common sense to mentor someone . Not a 3month course .

 

 

 

 

Just in case you wish to sign up now Zippy before your model NHS crumbles around you , you can sign the petition on 38degrees

Edited March 16, 2011 by Mactireuk
missed something

[zippygbr]

Whilst I would love to waste my life away arguing with someone who is management at the end of the day , the fact still remains the old NHS worked .

 

not sure who that is directed at , as the fact remains both myself and IIRC Night Owl are Health proferssionals

 

The new NHS is vastly short staffed ,

 

the NHS is NOT short staffed over all, some places have made it unattractive to work there, but that is an individual issue with the trust, site or even department ... many trusts are in staffing balance, and 'short staffing' may occur on a temporary basis when service reconfiguration is imminent,primarly to protect roles for those with substantive contracts.

 

 

and its budget is wasted year on out on unnecessary paperwork .

 

other than the enforcement of the now removed / eased 'crowd pleasing' targets of the new liarbore epoch i can't think of any paperwork that is unnecessary, some requires redesign to minimise duplication - this is often external documentation from Local Authorities or the DWP rather than internal documentation.

 

When a nurse , doctor etc is taken away from their respective job to cover the piles of paperwork on their desk for days on end , or courses that are unnecessary , then the patient obviously suffers .

 

keeping accurate and complete records of care delivered is an integral part of effective and safe patient care. further education and training is part of effective and safe patient care, you have still to provide evidence of these 'unnecessary' courses, i'd love to have the time to do unnecessary courses, as I and many others currently do 'desirable' further learning in my own time OR at my own expense as we can only be afforded the time AND funding for essential courses and other courses which have a beneficial impact on care delivery can only be funded / or the time given not both ... this is a cost that Professionals accept for their own professional development.

 

patients suffer when ignorant, out of date and unmotivated to develop service staff attempt to care for them using out dated and even dangerous methods.

 

You maybe the new face of the NHS , and love paperwork

 

accurate and complete documentation is a necessary evil, poor care records lead to duplication, poor continuity of care and can lead to dangerous and/or unnecessary procedures ...

 

, and verbal diarrhoea personally , but those that put the patient first dont support you .

 

I see we are at it with the ad hominems again.

 

This is a consumer forum , and as you well know being a consumer means I have a right to an opinion being a taxpayer whether you like it or not ,

 

2 things to say about Opinions

 

i. valid opinion is based on a persons evaluation of all the evidence, rather than limited anecdote.

 

ii. opinions are like the Rectum, Most people possess one , they were born with one and will die with one and a good proportion of the time it's filled with faecal matter.

 

 

and being a non member of the NHS I will not put

my friends and family at risk by uncovering documents on here .

 

In other words you don't actually have any evidence ... as i cannot see how a document stating that an NHS employer wants all it;s staff to comply with their job description ( i.e. Registered Nurses who are at or working to the fully competent KSF profile for their role with regard to Supporting Learners in Practice awards) is particulalrly 'risky' neither is a document stating that a pre-registration module for Student Nurses may contaion some supporting learners in practice content.

 

And as you well know , or live in ignorance , the NHS employs staff to investigate its members using the internet . And thats fact !!

Or maybe you didnt know that , seeing as your career is short .

 

there's a difference between investigating people who post inaccurate or defamatory material and having as you are asserting some kind of Stasi poised to investigate ... if this were the case i suspect that myself , Night Owl and others would have been shipped to the Gulags many years ago ...

 

And just because I do not work for the NHS , does it mean I am clueless ?

 

you are stating anecdotes and hearsay as fact, you seem unable to accept that this is being rebutted by people who have hands on 'coal face' knowledge...

 

, or is it your overly protective seeing as your management ?.

I dont apologise for hurting your feelings , next time you wish to respond to a post as someone wanted to voice an opinion on a consumer forum , and rightly so . Make less assumptions

 

as for assumptions i have no comment to make regarding your seemingly remarkable lack of insight

 

and engage brain first

I know a helluva lot more than you think zippy , and trust me when l say this ,september the mentorship degree is compulsory .

 

I'm sorry i have no idea where this has come from

 

2011 is the last intakes for the majority of HEIs offering DipHE pre-registration education for Nurses , as a consequence of this

- from 2012 all pre-registration courses will result in a degree as the academic award.

- to facilitate this all mentors will require a Supporting learners in practice award that enables them to asses at up to level 6 on the NQF which is the level of an Honours degree, many Nurses in current clinical practice already have such an award although not all do - some will need to upgrade existing supporting learners in practice awards to fulfill this.

 

It takes many years of knowledge , experience and common sense to mentor someone . Not a 3month course .

 

i presume you are fully conversant with the relevant NMC standards?

 

http://www.aanpe.org/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=Mk9en5c56lo%3D&tabid=786&mid=1525&language=en-US

[Night Owl]

Hi Mactireuk.

 

I feel that you really have issues with the NHS, a lot of people do, a lot don't. That's your choice.

 

You both seem very defensive and far too critical.

I don't believe zippy or I have been at all!

This is an open forum and as such we have replied to some of the issues that you have raised with respect. Your replies have been very defensive.

 

No I'm not in management but have great respect for the immediate management I work with. I have had cause to raise concerns through higher management using the correct procedures with success.

 

In fact I've yet to meet a happy NHS member of staff with more than 10 years service

I am a staff nurse with over 30 years of very happy service in various NHS hospitals and work in a very specialised area. I will not defend my job for you but will say that I work full time and work damm hard to provide good effective care for those I care for.

 

Nightowl you quoted me regarding Mentorship degree's , but forgot to answer . Why is that ?.

I don't believe I did quote you?

This is the University of Plymouth course for Mentorship (as an example)..........here

and the NMC's paper on Mentoring Matters..............here

 

I dont apologise for hurting your feelings , next time you wish to respond to a post as someone wanted to voice an opinion on a consumer forum , and rightly so . Make less assumptions

and engage brain first

 

I find some of your comments offensive and have no place here.

You are welcome to open a healthy debate but please don't slag of Nurses and make sweeping assumption about our profession.

 

The NHS is always evolving to keep up to date with current research, new technology, new procedures and effective outcomes for the patient. The staff within the NHS will constantly be up-dated with this new information through training.

Edited March 16, 2011 by Night Owl

[Mactireuk]

Slagging off nurses ?!!

You seem to be overly defensive and paranoid . Why would I slag off nurses when I know so many as friends & family . When I,m actually defending them .

Management in fact I am not , and as far as I am aware do not resemble the frontline nurse , surgeon or doctor .

Or is it a simple case your putting words into my mouth to justify your own arguments ?.

And if you check my post you quoted you would see you did in fact quote me .In fact if you kept it simple and stopped confusing yourself with a quote spam you'd be able to keep up with what your saying

Let me give you a single example .

School nurse is employed to be exactly what it says on the tin . In the past school nurses were resident at the school to deal with hpv immunisations , medicals , child protection issues etc .

Now they are based miles away , and cover at least 6 different schools . .......................Cutbacks !!

75% of the school nurses job now is to participate on courses (mentorship , solihull , or even fire awareness courses ) .

Inhouse paperwork & the ever time consuming eksf .

This is resulting in head teachers almost begging the school nurse to attend , and the school nurse having to refuse as they government targets to adhere to re : paperwork .

Let me give you another example of the NHS wisdom .

Nurse see's a patient in the process of having a stroke , administers aspirin and starts to use ecg . Nurse also calls for a bluelight to get patient to hospital asap .

Management hear of this after the patients life is saved , and reprimand nurse for using ecg as she was not trained in the county she currently resides , but she had nearly 30 years service in other counties using the ecg .

These are just 2 small examples of how patient care has deteriorated .

Shall I continue slaggin off nurse so you can get your spam quotes in ?

[champagnegal]

Where can I start in all this codswallop ??? ah right .......

 

School nurse is employed to be exactly what it says on the tin . In the past school nurses were resident at the school to deal with hpv immunisations , medicals , child protection issues etc .

Now they are based miles away , and cover at least 6 different schools . .......................Cu tbacks !!

 

HPV from 2008, certainly NOT resident at a school. School nurses cover a range of schools in their area, primary and secondary and have done for some considerable time.

75% of the school nurses job now is to participate on courses (mentorship , solihull , or even fire awareness courses )

 

once again - codswallop am a little confused as to why you seem to be concentrating on mentorship courses though. It is not compulsory for nurses to undertake mentor courses. This can be part of the top up degree course or can be taken as a separate course. Also, there are mandatory courses that need to be taken yearly - such as fire prevention. This is for both patients and nurses safety. it is NOT 75% of the job.

 

Nurse see's a patient in the process of having a stroke , administers aspirin and starts to use ecg . Nurse also calls for a bluelight to get patient to hospital asap .

Management hear of this after the patients life is saved , and reprimand nurse for using ecg as she was not trained in the county she currently resides , but she had nearly 30 years service in other counties using the ecg .

 

You do realise stroke is brain involvement, not heart involvement ??, how many nurses have ECG machine to use in community ?? - unless in a surgery - NIL, and am assuming you mean counTRY as opposed to county.

 

Management in fact I am not

 

Quite right - you are not, your lack of grammar proves that.

 

When you can get some accurate, coherent facts together, come back to this thread and explain, in plain English, why you think the NHS is blowing the taxpayers money, and before you spout anything else, I am not a manager, I am a nurse, quite a recent older nurse and also do not like what is happening to the NHS.

 

[Mr Worried]

Ouch, that is one fiesty thread, My NHS Hospital is RUBBISH IMO, I had a heart problem, was wrongly diagnosed, given incorrect meds then left in the corridor for a few hrs ( in a bed though )

 

When they said ' sorry ' we were wrong but should you have had a stroke, at least you could have sued the trust?

 

Ah ok then that is fine, needless ( no pun ) to say I have changed hospitals.

 

I think the NHS in areas do a fantastic job within limited resources, but the whole fiasco needs an overhaul.

 

Mr

[Mactireuk]

Where can I start in all this codswallop ??? ah right .......

 

School nurse is employed to be exactly what it says on the tin . In the past school nurses were resident at the school to deal with hpv immunisations , medicals , child protection issues etc .

Now they are based miles away , and cover at least 6 different schools . .......................Cu tbacks !!

 

HPV from 2008, certainly NOT resident at a school. School nurses cover a range of schools in their area, primary and secondary and have done for some considerable time.

 

75% of the school nurses job now is to participate on courses (mentorship , solihull , or even fire awareness courses )

 

once again - codswallop am a little confused as to why you seem to be concentrating on mentorship courses though. It is not compulsory for nurses to undertake mentor courses. This can be part of the top up degree course or can be taken as a separate course. Also, there are mandatory courses that need to be taken yearly - such as fire prevention. This is for both patients and nurses safety. it is NOT 75% of the job.

 

Nurse see's a patient in the process of having a stroke , administers aspirin and starts to use ecg . Nurse also calls for a bluelight to get patient to hospital asap .

Management hear of this after the patients life is saved , and reprimand nurse for using ecg as she was not trained in the county she currently resides , but she had nearly 30 years service in other counties using the ecg .

 

You do realise stroke is brain involvement, not heart involvement ??, how many nurses have ECG machine to use in community ?? - unless in a surgery - NIL, and am assuming you mean counTRY as opposed to county.

 

Management in fact I am not

 

Quite right - you are not, your lack of grammar proves that.

 

When you can get some accurate, coherent facts together, come back to this thread and explain, in plain English, why you think the NHS is blowing the taxpayers money, and before you spout anything else, I am not a manager, I am a nurse, quite a recent older nurse and also do not like what is happening to the NHS.

 

 

 

Well so far I've been accused of slagging off nurses , even though I stated I have a lot of friends & family who work as medical staff .So why I would slag them off is beyond me . I think they do a wonderful job .

No overtime , long hours , too much paperwork & and the abuse they get from patients can be serious .

Patient care is seriously being ignored for targets . As a surgeon friend of mine stated . "Clerical not medical , thats why I got out !".

Then I was challenged on several occasions to supply NHS documentation , even though those people knew I couldnt being I am not NHS staff .

I thought to myself , what next ?............ attack my grammar ?.

Surely not , who would stoop so low to be so desperate as to do that

1.You are correct champers re : school nurses not being resident at schools for some time , but you forget a very important point I was trying to make . When they were resident at schools , the system worked . It obviously does not now ,when school nurses have little or no time to attend schools to do medicals , HPV etc . As their intray resembles a post office sorting office .

2.Compulsory as of sept 2011 it will be , I did not say it was now .

3.It was a surgery , so when making assumptions , make sure you are asking and not criticising . Makes your post more credible . And I meant county .

4.I'II ignore the grammar insult . I've learnt over the years when people stoop so low , its in desperation .

5. Explain a "recent older nurse !". Recently got older ?, quite older ? , or just quite recent ?.

So please instead of trying to find faults , and making a poor job of it with your paranoia . Understand that this is a consumer forum where normal taxpaying people like myself , and others . Are justified in having an opinion on "our" NHS .

[Mr Worried]

GREAT COMMENTS

 

Mr

 

 

 

Well so far I've been accused of slagging off nurses , even though I stated I have a lot of friends & family who work as medical staff .So why I would slag them off is beyond me . I think they do a wonderful job .

No overtime , long hours , too much paperwork & and the abuse they get from patients can be serious .

Patient care is seriously being ignored for targets . As a surgeon friend of mine stated . "Clerical not medical , thats why I got out !".

Then I was challenged on several occasions to supply NHS documentation , even though those people knew I couldnt being I am not NHS staff .

I thought to myself , what next ?............ attack my grammar ?.

Surely not , who would stoop so low to be so desperate as to do that

1.You are correct champers re : school nurses not being resident at schools for some time , but you forget a very important point I was trying to make . When they were resident at schools , the system worked . It obviously does not now ,when school nurses have little or no time to attend schools to do medicals , HPV etc . As their intray resembles a post office sorting office .

2.Compulsory as of sept 2011 it will be , I did not say it was now .

3.It was a surgery , so when making assumptions , make sure you are asking and not criticising . Makes your post more credible . And I meant county .

4.I'II ignore the grammar insult . I've learnt over the years when people stoop so low , its in desperation .

5. Explain a "recent older nurse !". Recently got older ?, quite older ? , or just quite recent ?.

So please instead of trying to find faults , and making a poor job of it with your paranoia . Understand that this is a consumer forum where normal taxpaying people like myself , and others . Are justified in having an opinion on "our" NHS .

[T4NKG1RL]

I find it interesting to see that someone who has no evidenced experience of working within the NHS has so many opinions about how to make it cost-effective. Good, bad or indifferent, the NHS only continues thanks to the UNPAID extra hours which clinicians (e.g. Nurses & Doctors) currently (and historically have always done - lack of breaks, never finishing shifts at appointed times but working on to make sure patients are safe, etc) in the best interests of the patients. I would add that anyone who thinks pre & post registration training requirements are a waste of time & money and is somehow attributable to the NHS should go and read the professional regulations for Registered Nurses on the Nursing & Midwifery Council (NMC) website. For those who can't be bothered to source that evidence let me summarise: amongst other things, Registered Nurses & Midwives are obliged to maintain up-to-date evidence based practice, they are also required to be Mentors and be trained to a standard defined by the NMC to facilitate upcoming student Nurse & Midwives & their peers. If a Registered Nurse/Midwife does not maintain those standards and do as the professional regualting body dictates - he/she will lose his/her registration and no longer be able to practice. The NMC is not an NHS funded body - it is a body funded by Registered Nurses & Midwives themselves and is designed to protect the public through the setting & maintenance of standards of Nursing & Midwifery practice.

[Night Owl]

I find it interesting to see that someone who has no evidenced experience of working within the NHS has so many opinions about how to make it cost-effective. Good, bad or indifferent, the NHS only continues thanks to the UNPAID extra hours which clinicians (e.g. Nurses & Doctors) currently (and historically have always done - lack of breaks, never finishing shifts at appointed times but working on to make sure patients are safe, etc) in the best interests of the patients. I would add that anyone who thinks pre & post registration training requirements are a waste of time & money and is somehow attributable to the NHS should go and read the professional regulations for Registered Nurses on the Nursing & Midwifery Council (NMC) website. For those who can't be bothered to source that evidence let me summarise: amongst other things, Registered Nurses & Midwives are obliged to maintain up-to-date evidence based practice, they are also required to be Mentors and be trained to a standard defined by the NMC to facilitate upcoming student Nurse & Midwives & their peers. If a Registered Nurse/Midwife does not maintain those standards and do as the professional regualting body dictates - he/she will lose his/her registration and no longer be able to practice. The NMC is not an NHS funded body - it is a body funded by Registered Nurses & Midwives themselves and is designed to protect the public through the setting & maintenance of standards of Nursing & Midwifery practice.

 

Well done T4NKG1RL, something I actually agree with, thank you.

[Mactireuk]

Thankyou Mr Worried , glad to see somebody gets it without the bitching

[Night Owl]

glad to see somebody gets it without the bitching

 

 

Feel like I'm back at school!

[T4NKG1RL]

The other thing that struck me was how anyone could say that the NHS worked in the 'olden days' and harks back to this supposed golden age.

Correct me if I'm misinformed but hasn't the NHS has been a political battleground since and even prior to its inception?

This fantastic golden age when everything worked .... could someone tell me when that was?

I'm the 4th generation of NHS Nursing staff within my family and the only part of the NHS we all agree ever worked was the fundamental principle & foundation that this national health service should be free at the point of need. Successive politicos have kicked the NHS & its staff around as a bargaining tool to curry favour with the electorate and this fruitless point-scoring only serves to demonstrate that the misconceptions regarding what is a 'waste of taxpayers money' within the NHS has found a willing (if somewhat misinformed and naive) support. Practices and opinions change - usually based on reliable and appropriate evidence - as a general rule rumours & opinions dont stand up to scrutiny as reliable evidence.

[Mactireuk]

Somebody else who assumes far too much .

Tankgirl not once did I ever suggest a golden age , but the NHS did work a helluva lot better when its budget wasn't tampered with , or it was used as a political battleground . Or even a piece of paper to say you could be

a mentor .

Explain your attitude , and professional understanding regarding naive & misinformed support .

"Successive politicos have kicked the NHS & its staff around as a bargaining tool to curry favour with the electorate "

As even though I have been saying from day one that the NHS is in fact broke , I find myself reading your first & last post finding you making the same assumption , so even though you would like to come across as someone who disagrees with me , you in fact agree , but in a roundabout way with a lot of fluff .

Naive & misinformed cos it does not conform to your own point of view ?. You see my attitude is that the NHS has been broken a long time , due to politicians & penpushers , but since the internet people are more informed , and more educated .Which gives them a strong viewpoint when it comes to the NHS . Meaning the wool cant be pulled over their eyes by the endless wrangling & verbal diarrhoea politicians are so well known for .

All my opinions are in fact simply just that ....... fact !!! , from people who have worked within the NHS for decades , who now wish to get out . Who feel patient care is suffering , who love the whole concept of the NHS , love caring for people , but dont care for the masses of paperwork & targets set by politicians .

Rumours I leave to the old fishwives .

And on a final note , when I see friends & family coming home in tears due to the endless rubbish they have to contend with working within the NHS , then I'd say I have plenty of experience .

[zippygbr]

Somebody else who assumes far too much .

Tankgirl not once did I ever suggest a golden age , but the NHS did work a helluva lot better when its budget wasn't tampered with , or it was used as a political battleground . Or even a piece of paper to say you could be

a mentor .

 

NHS budgets have always been tampered with politically, as can be seen by the communities who have waited 50 years for a new hospital while other communities are on their third hospital in this time ...

 

Mentorship / teaching and assessing / supporting learners in practice awards have existed for many many years as has the requirement for 'fully competent' Staff Nurses to have them (at least as far back as the introduction of clinical grading - show me an E garde job description that doesn't say you have to have it or get it) and it's in the vast majority of fully competent band 5 job descriptions i've seen.

 

Explain your attitude , and professional understanding regarding naive & misinformed support .

"Successive politicos have kicked the NHS & its staff around as a bargaining tool to curry favour with the electorate "

As even though I have been saying from day one that the NHS is in fact broke , I find myself reading your first & last post finding you making the same assumption , so even though you would like to come across as someone who disagrees with me , you in fact agree , but in a roundabout way with a lot of fluff .

 

yes the NHS is broken, thanks to 13 years of liarbore mismanagement , but it is not broken for the the reasons you state or because of the continued defamatory comments you make towards the roles and responsibilities of staff, nor because people are required to keep full accurate and complete records.

 

Naive & misinformed cos it does not conform to your own point of view ?.

 

your statements have not been backed up by evidence and you have not ackonwledged the position of professional regulators or long standing terms within job descriptions

 

You see my attitude is that the NHS has been broken a long time , due to politicians & penpushers

 

politicians, all of the unnecessary penpushers are political commissars put in place to demonstrate 'That tractor production is in line with the five year plan, Comrade ' . The NHS cannot function without certain of the so-called pen- pushers, accountants in particular to ensure the free flow of money through the system to pay for equipment and supplies to pay staff to chase the commissioners for the payments we are owed on the basis of the work we do caring for patients.

 

without all the support services ( estates, facilities management, HR, pay roll, accounting , IT ) the system would fall flat ...

 

, but since the internet people are more informed , and more educated .

 

since the internet the ill informed and uneducated have a wider platform to spout the conspiracy theories , defamation and outright lies they believe are ' the secret truth ' that 'the establishment ( and the lizard head aliens)' are keeping from them, leading to a healthy dose of cynicism and scepticism for claims made of the basis of hearsay andunable to be backed up with documentary proof.

 

there is an awful lot of inaccurate information and hearsay being portrayed as the absolute truth on the internet.

 

Which gives them a strong viewpoint when it comes to the NHS . Meaning the wool cant be pulled over their eyes by the endless wrangling & verbal diarrhoea politicians are so well known for .

 

so not only have you mis represented people who have opposed your view with first hand experience from their current clinical practice as management now you are calling them politicians as well ?

 

All my opinions are in fact simply just that ....... fact !!! , from people who have worked within the NHS for decades , who now wish to get out .

 

no, they are unsubstantiated hearsay vs. the first hand views of current NHS staff supported by Documentary evidence.

 

as i've said before unfortunately some people are unable to cope with progress especially where it damages their position through structural change ( i.e. Senior Doctors becoming as accountable as any one else for their actions or inactions ) or through progress in service delivery ( some of the older Nurses unable or unwilling to develop their practice who resort to denigration of younger staff as a defence )

 

Who feel patient care is suffering ,

 

patient care suffers when inertia and an unwillingness to develop care and accurate document that care prevents effective service delivery , back to the left behind practitioners referred to above ...

 

 

who love the whole concept of the NHS , love caring for people , but dont care for the masses of paperwork & targets set by politicians .

Rumours I leave to the old fishwives .

And on a final note , when I see friends & family coming home in tears due to the endless rubbish they have to contend with working within the NHS , then I'd say I have plenty of experience .

 

no, you appear to have hearsay from those unable or unwilling to develop their practice.

[T4NKG1RL]

Zippygbr, succinct response which I couldn't have put better myself - Thanks

[Mactireuk]

Zippy , you criticised my initial post , so I answered you back . And you chose to ignore my answers .

Now I find you trying to knitpick with more quotes on a post I did answering someone else . Why is that ? , arguing for the sake of arguing by hijacking someone elses post ?.

You openly admit the NHS is broke , but not broke .

Explain progress by breaking the NHS !! , doesn't make any sense .

Seems to be a lot of backpatting going on here , I wonder why

Edited March 23, 2011 by Mactireuk

[zippygbr]

Zippy , you criticised my initial post , so I answered you back . And you chose to ignore my answers .

 

 

i have asked for proof of your assertions because despite being someone who would be directly affected by the statements regarding mentorship etc i haven't heard any such thing

 

Now I find you trying to knitpick with more quotes on a post I did answering someone else . Why is that ? , arguing for the sake of arguing by hijacking someone elses post ?.

rebutted by those who actually work in the areas you are making comment aobut.

 

You openly admit the NHS is broke , but not broke .

Explain progress by breaking the NHS !! , doesn't make any sense .

Seems to be a lot of backpatting going on here , I wonder why

 

 

the NHS is broken thanks to 13 years of liarbore misrule, where the metric and proof of achieving the metric has been the sole concern of the political commissars in lay management roles, the NHS is not broken because of graduate nurses, mentorship courses or the requirement to accurately and completely document care and treatment administered.

 

a Number of your other statements have been substantially rebutted, it has to be asked whether in fact it is you who is seeking the argument by not acknowledging the position of those of us with direct experience of current clinical practice.

[Mactireuk]

A number of your statements are incoherent and have been substantially rebutted , but you still choose to ignore defending them . You seem to be getting yourself very confused by it all .

Seems to be a case of stick the blinkers on and hope he forgets , and continue to argue the toss for the sake of it .

You keep prattling on about me providing documentation on a public forum , or did you have other ideas ? , like buying me a drink in a cosy pub ? , scotlands nice this time of year

Sorry Zippy gonna have to agree to disagree with ya , but till you start making sense , and stop hijacking others post and stick to your own . Dont call me , I'II call you

Edited March 24, 2011 by Mactireuk