Tribunal hearing coming up next week

[leemack]

Too complicated!!!

 

Lee:-)

[Pritti]

hello

here's your nuisance again. thanks for all the help. with the hearing two days away, i've been in such a state, i can't think straight. first time i was able to pull myself out of bed. my head is zinging and my stomach is doing somersaults. i'm so afraid of flacking out but didn't want to worry my husband, poor thing he works so hard and then he's got me to worry about all the time and he's so nice and kind through it all but can't take more time off. i'm scared, i don't know what to do at the tribunal. i'm just sitting here crying and feeling weird and spaced out. must calm down,

[Pritti]

I read about the fact that the doctor will question me about my condition. The state I'm in now already, I don't know what I'll do on the day. Can I write my history on a bit of paper and use that to read from or prompt me?

[Pritti]

oh god, i've just read another string. when i was turned down for ib i was told to sign on at the job centre. I dragged myself there every week, even though i was not getting a single penny, because my husband works full time. the reason i went was because i was told it's the only way to protect my pension credits and at 53 i realize how important that is. so for that, will i be punished ie you were fit enough to go to the jobcentre every fortnight, so you're fit enough to work - even though i defaulted several times and had to postpone signing and sometimes wait for my daughter to get here to take me?

[leemack]

Pritti, the most important thing is that you attend the tribunal. If once you get in there you are struggling - well that just lends evidence to the case for the mental health descriptors. Will the doctor be writing about your seizures in his letter? If so that's the battle nearly won, as long as you are very clear about seizure frequency at the time of the medical, then that's most or all of your points already. You've already said the medical report says one seizure every two months - even on that basis you should have been scored 12 points for physical descriptors. Make sure on the statement you've put the true frequency of seizures, and any loss of bladder control - with those two things alone, especially when backed up by a doctor's letter, would mean you score enough points.

 

Don't worry about the JSA issue, I've never known a tribunal to make an issue about it - or even mention it.

 

I know its all very scary, is there anyone apart from your husband going with you?

 

Regarding what to do at the tribunal its really simple. When you arrive give your extra evidence to be passed to the clerk, at our tribunal office there was always a security guard at the door. You will be asked to take a seat and a clerk will normally come and chat to you, explain the process and answer any last minute questions. Before you go in the tribunal members, normally a doctor and a judge will look at your paperwork and evidence you have provided. You'll then be taken into the tribunal room by the clerk and will sit at a large desk opposite the doctor and judge. The judge will start things off and introduce them and often they will explain a few things about the tribunal process. The doctor will then normally ask you questions about your medical history and condition at the time of the medical, the judge may then ask a few questions. At the end you'll be asked if there's anything you want to add. You then will either be told the decision's in the post or be asked to wait in the waiting room while they deliberate. Then you would be called back in for the decision. Tribunal over. Doesn't normally last long 20-40 minutes on average.

 

No, I don't think they would be happy if you were reading from prepared notes in order to answer questions. I think this would affect your credibility. Also it would be better to let them see the difficulties you have. I have had clients who haven't been able to continue half way through, in these cases sometimes the judge will decide based on the submission/statement and other times the tribunal is adjourned for another day. Which can also happen if the tribunal feels it needs more medical evidence.

 

As I said before, the most important thing is to attend. If you have difficulty coping its important the tribunal members see that. And if you don't attend they will rely on the evidence from the medical alone. It is stressful, but I believe you can do it.

 

Lee

[stalin's dead]

Just a question about frequency of seizures. The descriptors talks about one fit per week to secure 6 points but my fits don't occur in such a rigid, regulated fashion! Seziures happen when they happen!! They don't happen 'once a week'! I have around 3-4 seizures per month but those 3 or 4 can happen in the space of a week or spread over 3-4 weeks so do they work on an average or something like that.

 

Epilepsy is not like other disabilities. One minute you're not disabled and the next you're unconscious on the floor with a cut forehead and drenched jeans with recovery taking 4 days at least

 

It is this inherent unpredictability that is most frightening about epilepsy and which ATOS/DWP simply ignore ie you can't plan anything, you lose your driving licence and employers dont want to know you..you are essentially in a hinterland of nowhere

 

I need to know how the tribunal score the frequency of seizures and on what timescales they use if possible

 

good luck with the tribunal

 

thanks

[leemack]

-

LM,

 

I have grand mal seizures around 3x/per month and you state that 2 seizures every 6 months attracts 12 points. Are you sure this is correct?

 

thanks mate

 

SD

 

Only for incapacity benefit, esa rules are stricter.

[leemack]

Just a question about frequency of seizures. The descriptors talks about one fit per week to secure 6 points but my fits don't occur in such a rigid, regulated fashion! Seziures happen when they happen!! They don't happen 'once a week'! I have around 3-4 seizures per month but those 3 or 4 can happen in the space of a week or spread over 3-4 weeks so do they work on an average or something like that.

 

Epilepsy is not like other disabilities. One minute you're not disabled and the next you're unconscious on the floor with a cut forehead and drenched jeans with recovery taking 4 days at least

 

It is this inherent unpredictability that is most frightening about epilepsy and which ATOS/DWP simply ignore ie you can't plan anything, you lose your driving licence and employers dont want to know you..you are essentially in a hinterland of nowhere

 

I need to know how the tribunal score the frequency of seizures and on what timescales they use if possible

 

good luck with the tribunal

 

thanks

 

I think that an argument could be made for taking an average, though I'm not sure whether there's case law about this. An average of once a week could score you 15 points for either esa or incap. You also need to take into account any loss of bladder control as this would also score points.

 

I would suggest keeping a seizure diary from now until your tribunal. This will be a factual record. Include other effects from the seizure - recovery times, injuries, bladder issues etc. It will give the tribunal an idea of the unpredictability of your condition. In your submission suggest an average be taken ie on average one seizure a week due to the irregularity of the seizures. Someone else may come along with a more up to date knowledge of caselaw on the averaging issue.

 

10. Continence

 

A Continence other than enuresis (bed wetting) where the claimant does not have an artificial stoma or urinary collecting device

i Has no voluntary control over the evacuation of the bowel 15

ii Has no voluntary control over the voiding of the bladder 15

iii At least once a month loses control of bowels so that the claimant cannot control the full evacuation of the bowel 15

iv At least once a week, loses control of bladder so that the claimant cannot control the full voiding of the bladder 15

v Occasionally loses control of bowels so that the claimant cannot control the full evacuation of the bowel 9

vi At least once a month loses control of bladder so that the claimant cannot control the full voiding of the bladder 6

vii Risks losing control of bowels or bladder so that the claimant cannot control the full evacuation of the bowel or the full voiding of the bladder if not able to reach a toilet quickly 6

viii None of the above apply 0

 

11. Remaining conscious during waking moments

A At least once a week, has an involuntary episode of lost or altered consciousness, resulting in significantly disrupted awareness or concentration 15

B At least once a month, has an involuntary episode of lost or altered consciousness, resulting in significantly disrupted awareness or concentration 9

C At least twice in the six months immediately preceding the assessment, has had an involuntary episode of lost or altered consciousness, resulting in significantly disrupted awareness or concentration 6

D None of the above apply 0

Edited March 16, 2011 by leemack

[Nystagmite]

oh god, i've just read another string. when i was turned down for ib i was told to sign on at the job centre. I dragged myself there every week, even though i was not getting a single penny, because my husband works full time. the reason i went was because i was told it's the only way to protect my pension credits and at 53 i realize how important that is. so for that, will i be punished ie you were fit enough to go to the jobcentre every fortnight, so you're fit enough to work - even though i defaulted several times and had to postpone signing and sometimes wait for my daughter to get here to take me?

 

Signing on won't go against you. Many people (including myself) claim JSA; but have restrictions on hours worked per week due to disabilities.

[Pritti]

HB, Leemack and all the others out there who have helped me. I have to tell you the good news right away. After a sleepless night and a morning of chewing my nails, having a bad spell and what not, and finally getting ready to dress, panicking about my daughter being delayed because of exams - the tribunal chair just called to say that after the statement I sent it (the long one which you, HB were so kind to check through and comment on for me in great detail, you honey, you) on Monday, they had a look and found that, whilst they won't give me all the points I asked for, they can decide purely on the papers, and are giving me 15 points, in addition to the 6 I was originally awarded. There is therefore no need for me to attend. Can you believe it? My head is zinging again. Wonder if I remembered to take the tabs today. Must have, it's part of my routine. Oh, there are good people in the world still, most importantly, on this website.

Thank you, thank you.

Pritti

[honeybee13]

Wonderful news, I'm delighted for you. It was worth all the work you did, then?

 

 

HB x

[Pritti]

Now I need to learn to put funny faces on these messages. Here goes:-D

[stalin's dead]

Pritti

 

Congrats on that, hope it all works out for you.

 

I have my ESA tribunal in 6 weeks and was wondering what type or report did you submit to the tribunal board before you were supposed to attend? I have epilepsy and I think it would help if I submitted a report as well to support my case. Any chance if you give me a few pointers ie how you constructed the report, what you included etc? Would appreciate it. Just a few lines to give me direction

 

Many thanks and good luck

 

SD

[leemack]

Well done Pritti, that's an excellent result, just shows how all that preparation you did can really pay off.

 

Lee

[Pritti]

Hi SD

I had typed up a blow by blow account of my condition, but then came across HB's template last week when I joined the forum. I then super-imposed my actual situation into the template. I also had advice from various people on this thread as to how to lay it out so that I addressed each descriptor and I ended up challenging almost every single thing the doctor had said, ignored, etc. That was how I added up my points. The chair of the tribunal who spoke to me on the phone actually made mention of the points I'd asked for and what they were going to award and she was very reassuring.

I would advise you to use the template, and I have no qualms about your using the statement I made as a guide, which should be on this thread. Also on this thread is the amendments to the statement suggested by HB and most of which I used. If you can't for some reason find it, contact me again and I will post the revised statement on here as a guide for you.

Best

Pritti.

[Pritti]

LM

I went into the med examination cold, with all my honesty hanging out and seeking to please the doctor, and present myself in as good a light as possible ie well, intelligent, willing to try, a nice person really, - and then he shafted me for trying to put my best foot forward. We all learn by our mistakes. Mine was not to go online and find this forum before I went for my medical. Well, we're all fools sometimes.

thanks for the help and support

Pritti:-)

[stalin's dead]

pritti

 

That's excellent. I now know what to do. I secured 15 points on my first medical for my epilepsy and then zero on second even though my condition actually worsened. That cannot be right.

 

Anyway congrats and thanks for the advice which I intend to follow

 

SD

[Pritti]

Just received (wow, the mail still works!!) the tribunal decision. They must have taken it before yesterday, surely! Nobody's that fast.

 

They awarded me 5 points for the long catalogue of mental health problems ie anxiety, stress, depression, inability to deal with people irrational fear of going out when I'm in or in when I'm out, opening cupboards and the rest - and therefore reduced it to nil.

 

They gave me 15 for epilepsy, which counts as physical, and, added to my original 6 for musculo-skeletal probs, this gave me 21.

 

I am therefore, according to the DWP and Tribunal, if not according to my doctors and shrinks, perfectly mentally healthy and free to roam the streets freaking out, be obnoxious to my family, hide in the dark, talk to myself, rant and rave for no reason, etc etc - which is all normal. God save the general public, let alone my nearest and dearest

 

Once the musculo-skeletal probs are over, I am also, apparently perfectly fit to go out and run marathons, climb mountains and swim oceans.

 

ie Physically, aside from my undeniable epilepsy, and mentally, despite my clear craziness, I am just a skiver.

 

Well, whatever burns their wick - at least epileptics are OK - for now. I shouldn't complain. The reason I am on here telling it all, is so that all of you on this thread who have helped me so much, know the score.

 

SD - go with the epilepsy and do it in great detail. It's your only chance.

 

Best

Pritti.

[Pritti]

Sorry don't mean to moan, when I should be dancing. This is part of depression - half empty, not half full. Truly, I am pleased or will be, when I reason with myself.

Pritti

[honeybee13]

Pritti, please come back here whenever you need a pep talk. In your place, I would be trying to concentrate on the fact of having months of peace. Is it that you have nothing to worry about now and there's a bit of a void? I know how it can be.

 

HB x

[leemack]

Just received (wow, the mail still works!!) the tribunal decision. They must have taken it before yesterday, surely! Nobody's that fast.

 

They awarded me 5 points for the long catalogue of mental health problems ie anxiety, stress, depression, inability to deal with people irrational fear of going out when I'm in or in when I'm out, opening cupboards and the rest - and therefore reduced it to nil.

 

They gave me 15 for epilepsy, which counts as physical, and, added to my original 6 for musculo-skeletal probs, this gave me 21.

 

I am therefore, according to the DWP and Tribunal, if not according to my doctors and shrinks, perfectly mentally healthy and free to roam the streets freaking out, be obnoxious to my family, hide in the dark, talk to myself, rant and rave for no reason, etc etc - which is all normal. God save the general public, let alone my nearest and dearest

 

Once the musculo-skeletal probs are over, I am also, apparently perfectly fit to go out and run marathons, climb mountains and swim oceans.

 

ie Physically, aside from my undeniable epilepsy, and mentally, despite my clear craziness, I am just a skiver.

 

Well, whatever burns their wick - at least epileptics are OK - for now. I shouldn't complain. The reason I am on here telling it all, is so that all of you on this thread who have helped me so much, know the score.

 

SD - go with the epilepsy and do it in great detail. It's your only chance.

 

Best

Pritti.

 

Hi Pritti, I think you're interpreting this wrong, they are not saying your mental health is fine.

 

Basically they looked at the paperwork you had sent them and decided on the basis of that ALONE, that they could award you you the points they did, and therefore you did not need to attend the medical. But this does not mean that you wouldn't have been awarded more points if you had attended. With mental health problems in particular the tribunal like to ask lots of questions about what your daily life is like and how you cope before they award the points, they probably thought that they needed to see you in order to ascertain whether the other points were merited.

 

But as you only need to score at least 15 points, they probably felt there was little point wasting your time and stressing you out in order to give you a few more points. I've seen this a few times in tribunals where my client has broken down in the middle, and the tribunal make a decision based on the information they have to that point because enough points have already been scored, and to save my client further stress. Doesn't mean the client wasn't fulfilling the criteria for the other points he didn't score, but there was no need to carry on just to have them written on a piece of paper, as long as they pass, anything more serves no purpose.

 

So you can see the points they give you in a paper decision has no bearing on what your full issues are, as they are only looking at part of the picture - so please don't feel down about it.