Virgin rail 'bullies' who marched them off train when they showed wrong tickets

[rebel11]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1354732/Virgin-rail-bullies-marched-family-train-showed-wrong-tickets.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

[Wriggler7]

Well, that is one side of the story.

[rebel11]

Hi Wriggler

 

I only picked it up because it was on Daybreak, don't know enough, thus no comment from me:-)

[Old-CodJA]

Yes, and as always, the 'Daily Wail' is keen to publish an anti-railways story.

 

The public have not seen all the facts of course, just the family's version of what happened, possibly sensationalised by tabloid journalism jumping to inevitable conclusions.

 

Before I get castigated by some, I'm not saying that this is the case in this instance, but it's amazing how many times we see people booking heavily reduced fare tickets to travel on later trains then trying to use them 'by mistake' on earlier services that command a higher fare.

 

We all know some trains run late, but there doesn't seem to be any such claim here or the 'wail' would surely have picked up on that and neither do we know what reaction was displayed by the travellers themselves when advised their tickets were invalid.

[Wriggler7]

I ceased to trust the fifth estate when a friend of mine was killed in a flying accident. The 'sundays' picked up the story, it happened on a Saturday afternoon, and they cheerfully printed a lot of speculation, all couched in terms like 'a witness said' so that they could not be held liable. When the CAA published the full accident report, it was old news, and the press did not feel a need to print the established facts. They did not even print the checkable facts which were available on the day of the accident, admittedly that was in the pre internet days, but there were enough people who could tell you all about inverted running of Gypsy Major engines in those days that they could have avoided most of the innacuracies.

 

My views were reinforced after another fatal flying accident, involving an aircraft that I knew well (I did not know the pilot), again, they printed a lot of speculation, and again failed to publish the accident report.

[Madamfluff]

A company director who is too stupid to read the T&Cs which tells them quite clearly they have to get the train their tickets were purchased for.

 

A few people have said that the 9.31 may have been running late and the family may have thought they were on the right train - surely a glance at the board on the platform would have alerted them to the fact that the next train due to arrive was the 9.31 not the 9.51 even if it was running late the original due time of 9.31 would have been on the board with an expected arrival time if running late

 

I dont like Virgin but I hope in this case they dont give in to these passengers, I very much suspect that they knew they were in the wrong but thought that if they kicked up a big enough stink they would get away with it

Edited February 8, 2011 by Madamfluff
cant spell

[Wriggler7]

If I read the story correctly, the passenges were 'marched off' at their destination. (Please correct me if I misunderstood that)

 

They were not deposited at a mid way station where the next train would be next Thursday.

 

That 'police' assisted suggests that the train manager had been unable to obtain sufficient details for an unpaid fare notice. I have often examined 'why' police attended or failed to attend, and in the first instance, they would have needed a solid reason. The whole matter could have been dealt with, on the train, by the train crew. All they needed was 'the tickets', names and addresses, and they would have or could have issued an 'unpaid fare' notice.

 

Virgin will be effectively prevented from commenting until any potential legal action has been concluded, whereas the passengers seem quite content to 'go public' with the story.

[rebel11]

Apparently, they asked a Virgin Employee who said it was o.k. to use the tickets on the train they boarded. So they were misled.

 

A company director who is too stupid to read the T&Cs which tells them quite clearly they have to get the train their tickets were purchased for.

 

A few people have said that the 9.31 may have been running late and the family may have thought they were on the right train - surely a glance at the board on the platform would have alerted them to the fact that the next train due to arrive was the 9.31 not the 9.51 even if it was running late the original due time of 9.31 would have been on the board with an expected arrival time if running late

 

I dont like Virgin but I hope in this case they dont give in to these passengers, I very much suspect that they knew they were in the wrong but thought that if they kicked up a big enough stink they would get away with it

[Old-CodJA]

Apparently, they asked a Virgin Employee who said it was o.k. to use the tickets on the train they boarded. So they were misled.

 

This almost always leads to 'conflict' in some way. Whereas a member of staff can give permission to board a train without a valid ticket if facilities are not available, thereby negating any breach of Byelaw, the same doesn't apply with regard to validity of tickets held.

 

If an invalid ticket is held and WRONGLY accepted by one member of staff, that doesn't mean the next person making a check isn't right to refuse to accept it. All tickets are issued subject to the National Rail Conditions of Carriage and there is a specific condition to cover this:

 

59. Limitation of authority of a Train Company’s staff or agents

A Train Company’s staff or agents have no authority to waive or change these Conditions.

 

In most cases I suggest that well-trained staff might have said something like 'Well I'm sorry that is not the case and it seems that you were wrongly advised, there is a difference of fares to pay and that is £X. I am asking you to make that payment and will give you the details of where to complain about any misinformation that you might have been given'

 

If the traveller refuses, then the revenue staff could point to the condition applicable to virtually all of these reduced and time restricted tickets, which says that if the conditions are not observed, a traveller will be charged the full fare for a new ticket as if no ticket were held. That appears to have been applied in this case.

 

Personally, I'm not making any comment about whether that is morally right, merely that it is in the T&Cs accepted when such tickets are purchased.

 

In my opinion, a lot will have depended on the traveller's reaction when told their tickets were not valid and as Wriggler7 has pointed out, all of these issues can be dealt with by train company staff.

 

The Police are usually only called to either identify a traveller because he or she is refusing to cooperate, or to maintain public order where there has been or, is likely to be a breach. Like it or not, if a traveller holds an invalid ticket (or no ticket) and rail staff request name and address, the traveller is legally obliged to give their correct details.

 

It will be interesting to see where this one goes next.

Edited February 9, 2011 by Old-CodJA

[Maxwell TM]

This happens fairly frequently in my neck of the woods. Obviously, in cases of disruption/ no fault of the intending passenger, we use our discretion to allow travel, but unless otherwise instructed to do so in advance; only after seeking an OK from Control, (who presumably pass this info to all concerned en route). This does present a customer friendly face to the passenger and prevents them from being 'unfairly' penalised. Such actions appear to conform to the much vaunted doctrine of 'reasonableness' and as 'my' particular TOC are most keen on good passenger relations, seems entirely appropriate.

 

However, when there appears to be a clear breach of the Ts&Cs, we are trained to use Old-CodJA's formula of ...

"'Well I'm sorry that is not the case and it seems that you were wrongly advised, there is a difference of fares to pay and that is £X. I am asking you to make that payment and will give you the details of where to complain about any misinformation that you might have been given."

 

I agree with the consensus that we do not have the full story and I echo

"It will be interesting to see where this one goes next."

[Madamfluff]

Apparently, they asked a Virgin Employee who said it was o.k. to use the tickets on the train they boarded. So they were misled.

 

Yeah oldest story in the book, 'the bloke at waterloo/victoria etc etc said I could get in this train and BTW you will never prove otherwise'

 

I personally think they are a family puffed up with their own importance who made a mistake but didnt like some rail employee 'oik' picking them up on it.

 

I know from other posts that rail employees like old codja have to deal with this type of attitude on a regular basis

[rebel11]

I don't think they would make it up, theres plenty of CCTV on the Networks.

 

Yeah oldest story in the book, 'the bloke at waterloo/victoria etc etc said I could get in this train and BTW you will never prove otherwise'

 

I personally think they are a family puffed up with their own importance who made a mistake but didnt like some rail employee 'oik' picking them up on it.

 

I know from other posts that rail employees like old codja have to deal with this type of attitude on a regular basis

[RPI]

you dont think they'd make it up rebell? you mean everyone always tells the truth? Blimey, wish you'd posted that before today you'd have saved me reporting all those people over the past ten years (tongue in cheek obviously).

CCTV would prove nothing in this case! Coventry is staffed by VT and staff of all grades are usually aware of advance ticket T's&C's!

 

Like another poster has said "oldest trick in the book"

[rebel11]

It's like saying all Rail Employees are perfect and always give out the correct information, in fact they don't.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1355140/London-train-delays-Dew-line-rail-passengers-endure-misery.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

 

 

you dont think they'd make it up rebell? you mean everyone always tells the truth? Blimey, wish you'd posted that before today you'd have saved me reporting all those people over the past ten years (tongue in cheek obviously).

CCTV would prove nothing in this case! Coventry is staffed by VT and staff of all grades are usually aware of advance ticket T's&C's!

 

Like another poster has said "oldest trick in the book"

[Wriggler7]

For further light reading, I suggest 'elastic deformation of steel'. Dew is a pretty good lubricant, and therefore quite likely to upset a round steel wheel on a flat steel rail.

 

You might also wish to read 'conicity of rail wheels' and how to calculate root radius between tyre and flange. Or you can stick to the Daily Mail. Is Fred still going? I know Flook retired some years ago.

[RPI]

doing some digging it appears that they were in first class aswell (2ad 1child FOS is £268.40)

[rebel11]

http://www.metro.co.uk/weird/6185-clouds-are-new-leaves-in-rail-excuses

[Wriggler7]

Oh, Rebel! Please don't admit to reading the Metro, it is only given away at railway stations for people to put on the seat so that when they put their feet on the seat they do not leave muddy marks.

 

Have you ever felt that Nemi is your own 22 year old daughter?

[Wriggler7]

Papers have got very lazy in their reporting. It is much easier for them to re-hash the 'wrong kind of snow' story than to actually look into and expose real issues that plague our society and our world.

 

The wonderful story of dandelion seeds clogging air filters may seem farcical, but that is not the real story. If you employ Swedish engineers to check the work of Czech designers, instead of having a sound engineering industry at home, these things will happen. In the halcyon days of British railways, we had a huge and very good railway engineering organisation, that employed huge numbers of workers in Britain. Whenever I see the new West Ham stadium, I think of the vast 'Stratford Works', where locomotives were built, serviced, repaired. Or if you go through Romford and out towards the coast, you will pass the old Squirrels Heath site, where once the Eastern Counties railway erected locomotives. It later became the 'provender stores' supplying hay and clover to the railway horses.

 

We have allowed our industry and enterprises to atrophy to a point where we are not capable of doing very much at all. Now, it is Chinese railways that are seeking to rebuild African infrastructure, most of which was originally built by 'Britain'. If you need a new lock for the toilet door at your local station, it will not come from a local manufacturer, it will not have been cast by apprentices at the local railway foundry.

 

But the Metro will not look beyond the 'laugh at this' headline. If religion used to be the opium of the people, papers like Metro are most definately the mogadon.

[Wriggler7]

How many of you read and understood the public apology made by SNCF regarding their part in the 'special transports' during the time of the Vichy Goverment and the subsequent full German occupation of France? That didn't get much cover in the Metro.

 

Again, there are many parts to the story. SNCF are big enough and capable enough to seek to build railways in California. 'British Railways' are not capable of installing a clock that works.

 

The trains that have won my local line plaudits for reliability are put together at Derby out of kits of parts from all over the world. They send them abroad for testing. (Is it in the Czech Republic that they use a test track?)

 

The latest self service ticket machines are 'foriegn' (German or Austrian, not sure which, but I smile every time I hear the name Scheidt. We have 'Scheidht' machines! But then I smiled when the invasion of Iraq was lead by Gen. Blackhead.)

[rebel11]

Hi wriggler

 

It's totally irrelevant where the trains are built. The consumer doesn't have a say so a spurious arguement. The consumer pays the fair and expects a service without

excuses, to my mind it's not happening. Theses factual events highlight the consumers plight. Consumers are encouraged to use public transport, but to be honest

public transport isn't up to it.

[rebel11]

Don't stereotype, your losing the plot.

 

Oh, Rebel! Please don't admit to reading the Metro, it is only given away at railway stations for people to put on the seat so that when they put their feet on the seat they do not leave muddy marks.

 

Have you ever felt that Nemi is your own 22 year old daughter?

[Wriggler7]

My dear chap, I lost the plot around the time that Moses was still looking for it.

 

The consumer does indeed have the right to expect a good service when he has paid for it. I agree that modern public transport is not fully fit for purpose.

 

How to make it better is not a simple issue. It really does start by training apprentice engineers who care about the quality of their work. Consumers do have a say, not so great with where trains are built as with issues such as where strawberries in Tescos come from, and making their choices is hard for the individual person.

 

However, the decline of manufacturing in this country is, collectively, 'our fault'. One of the direct consequences is that when a train packs up, instead of having proper engineers close to hand, who can see, analize and fix the problem, we end up with 'waiting for a part', or a solution from people who are not familiar with the problem.

 

When the 'new trains' first arrived in my part of the world, a team of engineers (all aged about 12 by the looks of them) arrived from Sweden with diagnostic kit that would not work on local voltages.

 

They were very clever blokes, but they failed to understand voltage drops, and the direct effect on the 'computers' that manage the train. The trains had been tested overseas on track circuits that had 'perfect voltage'.

 

There were serious delays in bringing the trains into service, and some 'litigation'. At one point, Railtrack banned them from running over parts of the route because of 'failures'.

 

Passengers were obliged to continue to suffer virtually derelict trains that they had been riding on for many years, and, worse, some ancient three carriage 310s which had already been retired.

[Wriggler7]

My 'beef' is that we allow these things to happen, whether it is as 'workers', not working with the effort that we used to, or as managers, not caring, as long as the margins are 'ok', as voters and politicians when we allow policies and regulations that fail to drive our national interests and standards ahead, and as readers of media, that allow our papers to get away with publishing somewhat less than half of a story, which generally is not the story that needed mention in any event.

 

I am all in favour for (metaphorically) beating up railways when they fail to deliver. However, very often, the staff on the 'front line' are hampered with what they can tell the passenger, as very often the information is not being fed to those staff, or there are company policies which cause rather 'waffly' responses.

 

Railways used to be obliged to train their staff to a much higher level of competence. Now, with profit being the sole motive for running a railway, new staff are simply not trained beyond the very narrow remit of their particular task. Next time you are subject to a train delay, and a member of railway staff tells you 'it was a track circuit failure', ask him/her what their length of service is and what is a track circuit. Do it politely, I do not like staff being subject to humiliation or abuse, but I think that you will find that the training provided by the employer is woefully inadequate for anything more than a 'thats what I am told' answer.