will I be prosecuted if I have been cautioned by a police?

[desperad]

I was using defaced free tickets to travel and got caught. As a result of that I have been cautioned by a police (not sure transport police or not) and my annual season ticket has been confiscated. Stupid enough, I was also caring other previous defaced tickets with me. The tickets do not indicate where I was travelling from and to and hence cant determine the values of them, and of course because the tickets were defaced, it was also difficult to argue how many times i have used them. But honestly, I only use them on journey which costs about £10 roughly.

 

I havent heard anything from the train company for nearly 3 months now, not sure what is going to happen and I am very very worried that I still might be prosecuted even though I have been cautioned. and if they decided to settle for a fine, how much is it going to be? Does anyone know how long the caution record is retained?

 

Any suggestions/advice would be much appreciated!

[Wriggler7]

Not sure that you will hear from 'the train company'. If 'police' are dealing, you will hear from 'police' or the Crown Prosecution Service. All I can suggest is patience. They have 6 months to 'think about it'.

[Stigy]

I was using defaced free tickets to travel and got caught. As a result of that I have been cautioned by a police (not sure transport police or not) and my annual season ticket has been confiscated. Stupid enough, I was also caring other previous defaced tickets with me. The tickets do not indicate where I was travelling from and to and hence cant determine the values of them, and of course because the tickets were defaced, it was also difficult to argue how many times i have used them. But honestly, I only use them on journey which costs about £10 roughly.

 

I havent heard anything from the train company for nearly 3 months now, not sure what is going to happen and I am very very worried that I still might be prosecuted even though I have been cautioned. and if they decided to settle for a fine, how much is it going to be? Does anyone know how long the caution record is retained?

 

Any suggestions/advice would be much appreciated!

Unless you were given paperwork to suggest that you were simply cautioned for an offence, it's likely that you have been reported. You would have been read the caution (You do not have to say anything...etc etc), so as the they could question you. Was it definitely the Police? If it was the Police it would more than likely be the BTP, as Home Office forces tend not to involve themselves with railway offences. If it was the Police that reported you, it'll more than likely be the CPS who prosecute, as opposed to the Train Operating Company.

 

Just because the ticket can't be read by the naked eye, doesn't mean the value can't be established. If it was defaced, but still intact, simply visiting a Ticket Office and having the ticket swiped could bring up all the details of the ticket. From your post, I assume you were dilliberately using the ticket with the intention to defraud the railway? Even if they can't establish the value of the tickets themselves, they still have you bang to rights on the journey you were making, and £10, although it might not seem like a lot, if it were me doing the reporting, it would certainly be of the higher value journeys I've dealt with, as most are between £2 and £5.

 

If you've been using these tickets for some time, I think you'll probably receive a summons. If the TOC is doing the prosecuting, you could respond (when they write to you) and offer to pay all reasonable admin costs in order to stay out of Court, but given the nature of the offence, you can't really say it was a one-off mistake and wont happen again, can you? If it's thye CPS prosecuting, settling out of Court wont be an option. Sometimes though, it's better that the CPS is the prosecuting party, because in my experiance, they seem to be lenient, if you take in to account that fare evasion probably isn't high on their agenda.

 

If you have just been cautioned by Police, the matter is resolved, and you'll hear nothing further. If you've been reported, the TOC or othger body has 6-months to go to court with you. You can't really contact anybody unless you hear from them first, as for starters you dont know who's doing the prosecuting! If you are summonsed, I fear it'll be under S.5.3(a) Regulation of Railways Act 1889, which is recordable on the PNC and typically carries a fine on successful prosecution of £350 - £500 depening on your means. Also you'll receive a conviction.

[desperad]

I didn't have paperwork to take with me, although I did sign some paperwork from the policeman, my name, address etc. I assume that sort of established it was BTP? He read out the three options , suggested the most lenient option, which was the caution and I gladly accepted it at that time. I asked him how long it will be on the record and he said 10 years, although he didn't seem very sure of it. Please give more tips, if possible, to establish who it was, I am really confused!

 

They could not establish the ticket value because there isn't eletronic data stored on it. All information required was filled in by passenger, and only the date and the type of carriages you are travelling in was required. You don't even need to fill in where you are travelling from/to. Hence I am worried that the calculation is based on the longest route possible times 20 and times the number of trips I made. If that's the case, I might as well kill myself!

 

I guess I would be happy enough to pay a penalty fee without breaking my bank and not convicted. The amount you stated below is smaller than the lost on my annual season ticket if they decided to confiscate it.

 

Not knowing what is going to happen really is killing me... well, lesson learned, and see what happens in the next 3 months.

Edited January 31, 2011 by desperad

[Stigy]

I didn't have paperwork to take with me, although I did sign some paperwork from the policeman, my name, address etc. I assume that sort of established it was BTP? He read out the three options , suggested the most lenient option, which was the caution and I gladly accepted it at that time. I asked him how long it will be on the record and he said 10 years, although he didn't seem very sure of it. Please give more tips, if possible, to establish who it was, I am really confused!

 

They could not establish the ticket value because there isn't eletronic data stored on it. All information required was filled in by passenger, and only the date and the type of carriages you are travelling in was required. You don't even need to fill in where you are travelling from/to. Hence I am worried that the calculation is based on the longest route possible times 20 and times the number of trips I made. If that's the case, I might as well kill myself!

 

I guess I would be happy enough to pay a penalty fee without breaking my bank and not convicted. The amount you stated below is smaller than the lost on my annual season ticket if they decided to confiscate it.

 

Not knowing what is going to happen really is killing me... well, lesson learned, and see what happens in the next 3 months.

It sounds as though you were given an official Caution given what you say. That being the case, there'll be no further action in the case of a Penalty or Summons. The caution would act as a disposal.

[Tom87]

The word "caution" is difficult because it means several different things. When you are at the nick and the police are reading you your rights "...if you fail to mention anything in evidence which you may later rely on in court..." etc. that's called the caution. As already said, this could result in prosecution and if convicted there will most likely be a fine, and you will have to declare you have a criminal conviction for 5 years after the date of conviction.

 

That is different from a police caution is what they give you if you have committed a minor offence but they don't deem it serious enough to prosecute. If this is the case, you do not have a conviction, you were not prosecuted and you do not have to say on any job/insurance forms. etc that you have a criminal conviction as police cautions are "spent" immediately. However, it will come up on any CRB check you may have to do in future (but this is only for a select few jobs e.g. any work with children, the law, medical, national security, senior finance jobs). You would have received some kind of official documentation from the police if it was a police caution, and the matter would be considered closed. If it was the other kind of caution, then as has been said, watch this space. The vocabulary really does need to be changed regarding this as it is quite confusing - probably deliberately so in order to make serious offenders believe they are getting away with a police caution.

Edited February 2, 2011 by Tom87

[dawahis]

This Forum is great

[andyhappymc]

i got cautioned about 8 years ago. still showed up in my crb check for work. police said 6 years and fogot about. LIE

[Stigy]

i got cautioned about 8 years ago. still showed up in my crb check for work. police said 6 years and fogot about. LIE

Certain jobs are exempt from the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act. Even if it is spent (over 5-years old), there's still a chance it'll show up on a CRB check (Enhanced), although you don't have to disclose it due to the amount of time lapsed. If the role is exempt from ROOA then you may be asked to disclose all convictions and cautions in respect of the last 10-years.

[Tom87]

i got cautioned about 8 years ago. still showed up in my crb check for work. police said 6 years and fogot about. LIE

 

Indeed that's a lie (no surprises there as it came from the police) - any caution or conviction will turn up on either type of CRB check for the rest of your life, no ifs or buts. I don't know where the 6 years figure came from, they plucked that out of thin air. Cautions are spent immediately, i.e. you do not have to declare it (except for jobs exempt from the ROOA).

 

The time period for being spent depends on the sentence btw. Cautions = spent immediately. Fine, probation, other non-custodial sentence etc. = 5 years. Prison sentence (including suspended) of 6 months or less = 7 years. Prison sentence (including suspended) of 6 to 30 months = 10 years. Longer prison sentence = never spent. This is unambiguous and has no exceptions, these times are out in law by the ROOA and cannot be changed by a judge or probation. If the conviction came before your 18th birthday, all the aforementioned spent time periods are halved.

[Maxwell TM]

I spend a good part of each working day dealing with fare evaders. 99% of them stick 2 fingers up at me...or worse. I have no personal axe to grind here, but it is refreshing to see the instant contrition which hits evaders when they are faced with prosecution. Worryingly, many evaders, (scrotes), claim to have no idea that what they are doing is dishonest and very probably an offence. Perhaps a more robust campaign to educate dodgers would help.

[Wriggler7]

I long ago suggested that my local line should use a 'silver hammer' to nail copies of byelaws at the entrances to stations, and maybe relevant parts of the Regulation of Railways Act. I was told by one of their managers that it wouldn't go with the customer friendly image that they wanted to generate.

 

In the late 1990s and 2000, 2001 and 2, they did have a team of people who did 'school' work, with BTP and Railtrack, who did 'railway safety' and 'railway law' in the local area, and even sponsored a ride on (7 1/4 guage) train which attended fetes and local shows. That was axed to save money.

[Wriggler7]

I think that as a society, we need to look hard at how crime generally should be addressed, and organisations including railways ought to be part of the process. I do not think that crime is any 'worse' than in the 1970s, when I started poking my nose into it. The sadness is, that I don't think that it is any better, either. In my dark moments, I retreat to the position that at least crime has paid my bills for many years, and probably will do so for many years to come. Perhaps, when someone metaphorically or actually pokes two fingers up at you, you should stay calm and contemplate the concept that without that element in society, you wouldn't have a job.

[Old-CodJA]

Wriggler7 we started playing this game in the same decade and you're right, it will keep paying the bills.

 

One thing that I always tell new inspectors in training is that:

 

'It's a bit like the undertaker's business. You'll never run out of stock'

[Maxwell TM]

I think that as a society, we need to look hard at how crime generally should be addressed, and organisations including railways ought to be part of the process. I do not think that crime is any 'worse' than in the 1970s, when I started poking my nose into it. The sadness is, that I don't think that it is any better, either. In my dark moments, I retreat to the position that at least crime has paid my bills for many years, and probably will do so for many years to come. Perhaps, when someone metaphorically or actually pokes two fingers up at you, you should stay calm and contemplate the concept that without that element in society, you wouldn't have a job.

 

 

I am a train manager, not an RPI, but I work as closely as possible with our Revenue Protection colleagues to ensure that we present a fair, reasonable and consistent front where ticket irregularities are concerned. In 'my' TOC, we are lucky to have an extremely effective RP service, the only problem is that there are not enough of them. Sadly, I am hard pressed to recall a working day where I have not encountered some form of attempted evasion. As for staying calm, it goes with the job. If I couldn't, I would surely have had a stroke by now.

 

There is a prevailing culture which appears to view ticket bilking as a minor infringement at worst, As I wrote earlier, when the reality of prosecution sets in, things change very quickly. I am concerned as to how can we get the message across that a criminal conviction can mean the end of academic, career or even life progress? Just try getting a US visa with a conviction for dishonesty for example.

Edited February 8, 2011 by Maxwell TM
typos :-(

[Wriggler7]

Dear Max

 

Have you ever thought through the concept of having a lesson in school teaching the dangers of truancy?

 

I think, with revenue protection, at some stage you (we) have to accept that the efforts are about keeping the honest 'honest' rather than changing the 'fiddlers'. I think it was Leicester University that carried out the 'best' and most authoritative study on the subject (Old Codja will correct me if my addled brain has got that wong) and came up with the clever 85/10/5 'rule' that suggests that 85% of passengers will always pay, even when it is difficult, 10% will pay when they are 'made to' and 5% will never pay, no matter what you do.

 

I do suggest that you TOC should consider school and college work, making it partly 'sales' and partly 'what happens to fiddlers'. Tell the trainee nail technicians that a season ticket/YP card/groupsave ticket is good value, tell them that car insurance is expensive, even for us old Volvo drivers, and teach about the environment, whilst also talking about theft and kindred offences.

 

It long ago occurred to me that 'industry' spends a lot of money teaching staff how to behave, but prctically nothing on telling 'customers' what is expected of them. Must admit I forgot myself this morning and growled at two 'students' who felt a need to climb on bench on the platform. My grey hair seemed to carry the argument. There are no signs on the platform, and I don't want the place labelled like a bathroom in a Blackpool B&B telling me not to stand on the seat, but you may wish to think about the signage on your railway, and what messages you want to put out.

[Wriggler7]

There was a time when my local line organised lots of press covrage of revenue protection, and convinced the local papers to report who had been 'done', and how much the Court insisted that they pay. There are regulations about what can be legitimately published, which are easy to find on the internet, and should be pushed under the noses of the 'directors' of your TOC. However, your commercial guys will (rightly, to a degree) point out that it is more important to present a friendly face to increase passenger numbers than a threatening one to put off 'fiddling'. It is a difficult balance to strike. Revenue Inspectors might like a few severed heads on poles, revenue generation teams would prefer pictures of happy families going to bracing Skegness.

 

For my part, I will continue to say 'don't commit crime, if you have, come and see me, bring your wallet.'

[Maxwell TM]

Dear Max

 

snip

 

I do suggest that you TOC should consider school and college work, making it partly 'sales' and partly 'what happens to fiddlers'. Tell the trainee nail technicians that a season ticket/YP card/groupsave ticket is good value, tell them that car insurance is expensive, even for us old Volvo drivers, and teach about the environment, whilst also talking about theft and kindred offences.

 

snip

 

It long ago occurred to me that 'industry' spends a lot of money teaching staff how to behave, but prctically nothing on telling 'customers' what is expected of them. .

 

Inspiring stuff. Thanks

[desperad]

It sounds as though you were given an official Caution given what you say. That being the case, there'll be no further action in the case of a Penalty or Summons. The caution would act as a disposal.

 

The train company finally got in contact and invited me for an interview. It turned out that I have been cautioned by a transport police. My questions are:

1. How long does this caution stay on my record?

2. What do I do at the interveiw? I want to be honest and own up to what I have done.. would they send me to the court? How should I best approach this?

 

Any advice is welcome!

[Maxwell TM]

Rather surprised that you should be called for an interview at this stage. I would have thought that the caution you received meant that the affair was done and dusted.

Has anything new come to light?

 

As others have pointed out, the term 'Caution' is a broad one. I have here a link which may help:- http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/police/powers/cautioning/

 

Granted that BTP are not a 'Home Office' force, I believe that they operate in a similar manner. I am sure that one of the revenue experts will pick this up and almost certainly expand on the topic.

[Old-CodJA]

The train company finally got in contact and invited me for an interview. It turned out that I have been cautioned by a transport police. My questions are:

1. How long does this caution stay on my record?

2. What do I do at the interveiw? I want to be honest and own up to what I have done.. would they send me to the court? How should I best approach this?

 

Any advice is welcome!

 

I'm a little cofused by this too and I wonder if we might have got the 'wrong end of the stick' in regard to your initial visit to the Police.

 

Was your visit to 'accept a Police Caution' as a disposal for an offence which you had already admitted to?

 

or

 

Was it to be interviewed under caution in line with the requirements of the Police & Criminal Evidence Act 1984??

 

Did the Police officer start by telling you that you were going to be asked some questions about your use of the defaced tickets & season ticket and did he say the following; "You do not have to say anything, but it may harm your defence if you do not mention when questioned, something that you may later rely on in Court. Anything that you do say may be used in evidence, do you understand the caution?'

 

Did he then make notes of the questions and your answers?

 

If it was the latter, further action might still be likely.

 

Please clarify exactly what happened, don't give details of names, times, dates & places. Just tell us what happened when you spoke to the Police officer / s at the station and maybe it will all become clearer.

 

.

[Grotesque]

Yes I think the OP has (wrongly) been dealt with far more lightly than should be expected. People get MG'd for travelling one stop over, or having ten pence too little on an Oyster; yet the OP could theoretically have faced charges of Intent to Defraud, Fraud, Forgery, Impersonation, Misrepresentation, Counterfeiting...

 

Porridge time! LOL

[SRPO]

This is something I deal with all the time, guidance is to issue cautions to all first time offenders for railway offences, fraud & counterfeiting offences are usually dealt with by conditional cautions requiring the offender to compensate the loser.

If you are going to get done for bunking the train, pray that its a police officer rather than a revenue inspector that deals with you.

[desperad]

I'm a little cofused by this too and I wonder if we might have got the 'wrong end of the stick' in regard to your initial visit to the Police.

 

Was your visit to 'accept a Police Caution' as a disposal for an offence which you had already admitted to?

 

or

 

Was it to be interviewed under caution in line with the requirements of the Police & Criminal Evidence Act 1984??

 

Did the Police officer start by telling you that you were going to be asked some questions about your use of the defaced tickets & season ticket and did he say the following; "You do not have to say anything, but it may harm your defence if you do not mention when questioned, something that you may later rely on in Court. Anything that you do say may be used in evidence, do you understand the caution?'

 

Did he then make notes of the questions and your answers?

 

If it was the latter, further action might still be likely.

 

Please clarify exactly what happened, don't give details of names, times, dates & places. Just tell us what happened when you spoke to the Police officer / s at the station and maybe it will all become clearer.

 

.

 

I was being stopped by a Revenue Officer, I admitted my wrong doing and offered to pay the differences whatever it maybe. I think because he can't establish the value of the tickets and/or he can't get hold of someone from the train company who issued my season ticket, he decided to call the transport police. The police didn't explain who he is and hence i was very confused if he was a transport police or police. But now I have found out from my train company that he indeed was a transport police. He asked me some questions like why did you do it, contact details etc, the interview with the police finished within 5 minutes. He thinks that it's low value and decided to give me a caution instead. I don't recall him say anything like ""You do not have to say anything, but it may harm your defence if you do not mention when questioned, something that you may later rely on in Court. Anything that you do say may be used in evidence, do you understand the caution?", but it has been over 3 months and it gets a bit blurred now.

 

Is the caution issued by transport police 'shared' with police? How long does it stay on my record? I think the caution is immediately spent.

 

My train company invited me to the interview, he said it's a chance for me to have my say...I don't think there is much i can do, but it's that unsettleing feeling that i might get prosecuted which worries me a lot. I really want to know what is likely to happen after the interview.

[SRPO]

Police are police, it matters not if they are sworn as BTP, Metropolitan or county officers.

If a police officer issues a street caution the matter ends there & the TOC wont be involved.