Advent Computer Training (Barclays Partner Finance)

[10pack]

I think mis-representation is a strong argument for all students and guarantors, Uneasy. I have evidence that the qualification I was to do could have been achieved via CIW directly and that the first part of the course was unnecessary for me and primarily aimed at technicians (not web design, which was what I'd chosen to do). The salespeople basically pushed modules and certs on people that were either unnecessary or totally above their level of skill (obviously they made a commission on all the course modules they sold) - Microsoft, for example, do not recommend the MCSE to someone who does not have 2 ys work experience in IT networks apparently, yet Advent (and Computeach) push their courses as achievable by someone with no IT experience.

 

Yes I quieryed them why they was pushing me to do Comptia when I wanted to do .net programming, they told me it was a basic foundation course that all students needed to do.. and as you point out.. why do a course that is aimed at IT when you will not be working in that area

[Fuzzbutt]

10pack, I read up on CIW's website where they sell the whole package CIW web design qualification, all for £325 (including CDs and your exam voucher to take to the nearest Pearson Vue centre). That shows how over-priced Advent courses were. I could have just bought that package from CIW direct and missed out all the techie qualifications they sold me as necessary (shame I found Advent first!)

[10pack]

Hi 10pack

 

Well, I've submitted evidence and the questionaire now to the court so I'm just waiting for a date for the hearing now. Should be pretty soon as I have no witnesses or complications like expert reports etc to submit.

 

I did ask the rep when he was in my home what course materials Advent would be supplying and I felt he was being evasive.

I wished that I had listened to my gut instinct about it.. but being out of work and wanting to get back working as soon as possible I overrode it

[Fuzzbutt]

Sadly true for many of us, 10pack. I wish I'd researched more fully but Advent seemed a good option at the time, especially with the job placement offer, which is what sold it to me in the end. Obviously in hindsight much of the sales talk was b **t.

Edited August 30, 2011 by Fuzzbutt

[10pack]

Sadly true for many of us, 10pack. I wish I'd researched more fully but Advent seemed a good option at the time, especially with the job placement offer, which is what sold it to me in the end. Obviously in hindsight much of the sales talk was b **t.

 

Yes it was the job centre bit that sold me.

The rep told me that other job agencies was really annoyed with advent because they placed only Advent students and did not charge a fee unlike the agencies.

 

it was all this that really sold it for me told me, since because i was out of work this meant that they would get me working in 3 months though as a IT techie while carried on studying on my other modules... it made sense at the time.. but when I think back on it, how could they have financed my course when I was/am unemployed.. it just could not be possible to do unless the fiddled the figures and lied to Finance company about my work status.

 

I am still out of work and do not get benefits, if i was to apply for a credit card(barclaycard) its usual to ask if you are working or have an income of at least £10k a year.. I do not have either so how did Advent get my course funds?

[Lankus]

Hi Fuzz, what address for BPF did you put on your claim form? The court won't accept my form because I've put the usual address on there - Barclays Partner Finance, PO BOX 2501, CARDIFF, CF23 0FP. But they won't accept a PO Box address. thx

[Kraken1]

Surely though it is for the judge to consider the evidence and arguments you put before him, not for the claimant to be a legal expert and do the job for him? My understanding of small claims is that it was designed to be accessible to the average joe, and a solicitor is not neccessary so long as the claimant can put a clear case across.

I am presenting a whole range of issues I'm challenging Barclays on.

 

You'd hope so, but it often isn't like that. Just go through these boards, especially the debt collection ones and you'll get a flavour. You will need to put a simple, non-contradictory claim across that is clear and accurate. In many cases what a claimant thinks is a clear case is often not to the impartial and objective outsider.

 

If you try and argue stuff that has been decided very definitively in higher courts you'll get nowhere. Likewise, don't take a scatter gun approach and throw everything you have at them. this is often a recipe for disaster with litigants in person tripping themselves up. It is designed to be simple, but it is a court and it is your job to prove your case. On an issue like this, it will be tough. I wish you luck, but I hope you are being careful, there is quite a great deal of scope to hash this up. You'll have a better idea where you stand when you get their defence.

[Fuzzbutt]

Hi Fuzz, what address for BPF did you put on your claim form? The court won't accept my form because I've put the usual address on there - Barclays Partner Finance, PO BOX 2501, CARDIFF, CF23 0FP. But they won't accept a PO Box address. thx

 

Lankus, you need to address your claim against Clydesdale Financial Services Ltd , trading as Barclays Partner Finance (not just Barclays Partner Finance).

The address for their solicitor is Hogan Lovells International LLP, Atlantic House, Holborn Viaduct, London EC1A 2FG.

The address for BPF in Cardiff is correct.

 

But you need to cite Clydesdale as opposed to BPF as the actual defendant (see Hausfeld's letters on my website and check the addresses and names they use).

[Fuzzbutt]

You'd hope so, but it often isn't like that. Just go through these boards, especially the debt collection ones and you'll get a flavour. You will need to put a simple, non-contradictory claim across that is clear and accurate. In many cases what a claimant thinks is a clear case is often not to the impartial and objective outsider.

 

If you try and argue stuff that has been decided very definitively in higher courts you'll get nowhere. Likewise, don't take a scatter gun approach and throw everything you have at them. this is often a recipe for disaster with litigants in person tripping themselves up. It is designed to be simple, but it is a court and it is your job to prove your case. On an issue like this, it will be tough. I wish you luck, but I hope you are being careful, there is quite a great deal of scope to hash this up. You'll have a better idea where you stand when you get their defence.

 

I have composed a clear argument and understand the need for accuracy and identifying specific points. I have spent months on researching this case.I know it back to front and am taking up where a major law firm left us. I'm confident in presenting myself publicly, sticking to facts, and have a PR/Communications background so think I can pull that off pretty well.

 

Kraken, I'd be interested to know what your expertise and legal knowledge/experience is that you can make such statements here? I appreciate positive advice but you seem as though you just want to sow seeds of doubt among us at the moment?

 

So far NOTHING has been argued in higher courts. In fact, nothing has been argued in ANY court of law in this land regarding our case. That is my point and why I am doing what I'm doing. I will be the first.

 

I have already seen Barclays defence and can pick holes in it. I am confident I do have a good, clear case and have submitted my evidence to court already.

 

It's now up to a judge to decide on points of law and fair play. I'll comment no further now until I have a court ruling.

Edited September 1, 2011 by Fuzzbutt

[10pack]

I have composed a clear argument and understand the need for accuracy and identifying specific points. I have spent months on researching this case.I know it back to front and am taking up where a major law firm left us. I'm confident in presenting myself publicly, sticking to facts, and have a PR/Communications background so think I can pull that off pretty well.

 

Kraken, I'd be interested to know what your expertise and legal knowledge/experience is that you can make such statements here? I appreciate positive advice but you seem as though you just want to sow seeds of doubt among us at the moment?

 

So far NOTHING has been argued in higher courts. In fact, nothing has been argued in ANY court of law in this land regarding our case. That is my point and why I am doing what I'm doing. I will be the first.

 

I have already seen Barclays defence and can pick holes in it. I am confident I do have a good, clear case and have submitted my evidence to court already.

 

It's now up to a judge to decide on points of law and fair play. I'll comment no further now until I have a court ruling.

 

you was awake late last night.. I thought I was the one who does not get to sleep at night.

 

Do you have to be present in court/room/office or will the judge just look at your written evidence and not bother to call you to court?

Either way I am really impressed of your efforts its just a pity thet the people who work for BPF are not working in an ethical manner even though I bet their company signed up for IS9000(and the ones that came after it) certification.

Most proffessional companies have signed up to this and one of the things they sign up to is that the operate in an ethical manner.

I remember going through loads of such training with the company I worked for, we even had a job number to book our time to and even had printed certificates showing we had passsed each module.. yes many.

 

I bet BPF employees have had to do the same so I wonder how they can sit there and still put their customers through what they do just so they get a chance to not pay you what they owe you and still claim to operate in an ethical manner.

 

I was listening to news and the banks are bleating on about why they should not be implementing the reforms the government has proposed about dividing their risk part and retail side of their banking..

Its just delay, every day they delay gives them chance to use money from working people for them to use in their risk business ventures that is why they delay.. they want the money we deposit in savings accounts and current accounts so they can finance the other side of their business.

[Fuzzbutt]

you was awake late last night.. I thought I was the one who does not get to sleep at night.

 

Do you have to be present in court/room/office or will the judge just look at your written evidence and not bother to call you to court?

Either way I am really impressed of your efforts its just a pity thet the people who work for BPF are not working in an ethical manner even though I bet their company signed up for IS9000(and the ones that came after it) certification.

Most proffessional companies have signed up to this and one of the things they sign up to is that the operate in an ethical manner.

I remember going through loads of such training with the company I worked for, we even had a job number to book our time to and even had printed certificates showing we had passsed each module.. yes many.

 

I bet BPF employees have had to do the same so I wonder how they can sit there and still put their customers through what they do just so they get a chance to not pay you what they owe you and still claim to operate in an ethical manner.

 

I was listening to news and the banks are bleating on about why they should not be implementing the reforms the government has proposed about dividing their risk part and retail side of their banking..

Its just delay, every day they delay gives them chance to use money from working people for them to use in their risk business ventures that is why they delay.. they want the money we deposit in savings accounts and current accounts so they can finance the other side of their business.

 

Hi 10pack

yes I was up late, just back from a day at the sea. I saw that programme too ( 'Newsnight' with Jeremy Paxman, I think). Agree, I think banks are shameless and the treatment Barclays are dishing out to us appalling.

 

So far as I understand, the judge reviews my evidence and Barclays defence (which he/she now has) and I get a hearing date if the court decides it wants to ask further questions to clarify any points. As there's a lot involved in our case I think the judge will probably do that, rather than make a decision based on what he has before him and just write to the parties with the decision. A representative from Barclays will be invited but does not have to attend. The hearings are usually informal with just both sides and judge present in a small side room off the court. He/she can then ask either to clear up any issues he's not understanding and then goes away to consider the evidence. Then they write to both parties.

If the issues are legally complicated they may refer it to another court track and then a circuit judge, rather than the county court judge attached to the local court, will preside. I'm hoping it won't go that far and is over quickly - small claims is intended to be an easy, quick system. Just have to see now what happens.

[Fuzzbutt]

Lankus, you need to address your claim against Clydesdale Financial Services Ltd , trading as Barclays Partner Finance (not just Barclays Partner Finance).

The address for their solicitor is Hogan Lovells International LLP, Atlantic House, Holborn Viaduct, London EC1A 2FG.

The address for BPF in Cardiff is correct.

 

But you need to cite Clydesdale as opposed to BPF as the actual defendant (see Hausfeld's letters on my website and check the addresses and names they use).

 

H Lankus

 

I just looked again at my court papers and I used the PO box address in Cardiff (only one I had for BPF). Bristol court accepted it OK so I don't understand why your court won't. I did receive a response though from Hogan Lovells (BPFs law firm) correcting my claim as being against Clydesdale rather than the name Barclays Partner Finance (which is just their trading name). Hausfeld addressed their letters this way, I noticed.

It didn't stop the court issuing me a claim number though and processing the form I submitted.

[skyblue dave]

Kraken, I'd be interested to know what your expertise and legal knowledge/experience is that you can make such statements here? I appreciate positive advice but you seem as though you just want to sow seeds of doubt among us at the moment?

 

QUOTE]

 

Good luck fuzz. I agree, Kraken is definately up to something.

[Fuzzbutt]

Thanks Skyblue Dave.

I'll keep everyone posted.

[Kraken1]

Kraken, I'd be interested to know what your expertise and legal knowledge/experience is that you can make such statements here? I appreciate positive advice but you seem as though you just want to sow seeds of doubt among us at the moment?

 

I'm not trying to be negative, just realistic. You'll see from earlier in the thread I've advised on how to potentially make this case, and have critiqued claims that have been posted. Fuzz can decide whether to accept my advice or not. From what I have seen I have concerns that the case is as clear cut and as easy to win as folk think. It is winnable, but it will be hard and the argument needs to be spot on. Too many of the arguments that have been posted here are ropey.

[Fuzzbutt]

I'm not trying to be negative, just realistic. You'll see from earlier in the thread I've advised on how to potentially make this case, and have critiqued claims that have been posted. Fuzz can decide whether to accept my advice or not. From what I have seen I have concerns that the case is as clear cut and as easy to win as folk think. It is winnable, but it will be hard and the argument needs to be spot on. Too many of the arguments that have been posted here are ropey.

 

 

We are well aware of the difficulties of the case and that we are up against a major bank, but our Hausfeld lawyer felt individual people stood a good chance of winning, rather than pursuing the umbrella case they'd at first proposed, which had including PPI and Access2 people. Hard was not a word she used.

 

But I do agree that people need to be very clear in what they put to the court, back it with as much evidence as possible. For the benefit of others just starting a small claim, I included not just the loan agreements and BPF/Advent paperwork, but also screen grabs from websites such as CIW and Microsoft where it was stated levels of IT experience needed before starting on certain certificates (illustrating how Advent therefore mis-sold the course as achievable). I used Patricia Pearl's book 'Small Claims Procedure;A Practical Guide' for reference, which is helpful. You can buy it via CAG although I got an older 2nd hand copy off Amazon for a couple of quid.

 

I wrote up a case outline to simplify things for the judge so he/she didn't have to guess at anything and trawl blindly through loads of odd print outs and docs. In this I gave a full account of the sales meeting, my experience of the coursework and why I'd found it poor. I also included material such as quotes former CT students had given me and other evidence of CT track record, illustrating why I had rejected them as an alternative provider. While much of this is admittedly not directly relating to my case I believe it will give a judge a better picture of my reasoning in refusing to sign over to CT, rather than me just stating I didn't want them. I included a numbered list of all my evidence docs and clearly numbered them in relation to my case outline, plus included a summary of the laws I thought was relevant (CCA, Unfair Contracts etc) though obviously a judge will be deciding what applies and what doesn't regarding points of law.

The judge (according to Pearl's book, herself a former District Judge) says this is what a judge will be looking for. They will take into account the whole picture on deciding what is a fair resolution and how you put yourself across is relevant.

 

Hope that helps everyone.

Edited September 2, 2011 by Fuzzbutt
spelling

[JP-CADMAN]

Hi Fuzz,

 

Been keeping an eye on your work for a while. I got bullied into paying my bill in full in December just weeks before Advent went bust by BPF, I had to borrow money to pay this in essense I robbed Peter to pay Paul. I refused Computeach outright and asked for my money back; you know the response I got.

 

I hope you win the court case against Barclays. If you do it will inspire alot of students to take Barclays to the small claims court as well, I know I will.

 

I was a Barlcays customer for more than 10 years until this happened. Lets just say all my bank acccounts were moved from them very quickly. Poor customers service and they don't seem to care that they have put me through Hell trying to clear the debt that I owe for this course and I never got a qualification out of it.

 

I look forward to hearing the outcome.

[Penny Mitchell]

Thanks Skyblue Dave.

I'll keep everyone posted.

 

Best of Luck Fuzzbutt

[10pack]

I just had email with repoprt from accountants who are wrapping up advents assets PKF and they seem to have helped themselves to a substancial amount of money £95,000 so far.. all leagal of course.. students get sod all.

they even moaned that some students owed money to Advent and they was wondering how to reclaim it.. blood sucking..

[Lankus]

H Lankus

 

I just looked again at my court papers and I used the PO box address in Cardiff (only one I had for BPF). Bristol court accepted it OK so I don't understand why your court won't. I did receive a response though from Hogan Lovells (BPFs law firm) correcting my claim as being against Clydesdale rather than the name Barclays Partner Finance (which is just their trading name). Hausfeld addressed their letters this way, I noticed.

It didn't stop the court issuing me a claim number though and processing the form I submitted.

 

Thanks Fuzz. I'll try the court again this week and talk them into taking it. Don't know what they expect me to do other than send it to their address

[10pack]

Hi Fuzzbutt

Any progress on your court case? wondering how you are getting on

 

[Fuzzbutt]

Hi Fuzzbutt

Any progress on your court case? wondering how you are getting on

 

 

Still awaiting a hearing date at the mo, 10pack. Hope I get one soon as I want this over now one way or another.

[Celina]

Hey Fuzzbutt... You've got this far and well done for being patient!! Its good to know that you have stuck it out for as long as you have. Your making a point (what ever the outcome maybe).

Many people I'm sure reading your updates (as I have) keeping us all informed and directing us on what possibly path we could use etc,.

 

Just remember have a calm mind your day in court will come.

[Fuzzbutt]

Hey Fuzzbutt... You've got this far and well done for being patient!! Its good to know that you have stuck it out for as long as you have. Your making a point (what ever the outcome maybe).

Many people I'm sure reading your updates (as I have) keeping us all informed and directing us on what possibly path we could use etc,.

 

Just remember have a calm mind your day in court will come.

 

Thanks for that encouragement, Celina. I'm looking forward to my day in court now.

[Lankus]

Thanks Fuzz. I'll try the court again this week and talk them into taking it. Don't know what they expect me to do other than send it to their address

 

Hi Fuzz, they accepted it on the second attempt with no questions asked. Might have been Barclays paying off the courts to delay things I submitted it about a week ago now. How long did it take before you had any kind of response? Thanks