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    • If you are buying a used car – you need to read this survival guide.
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    • Hello,

      On 15/1/24 booked appointment with Big Motoring World (BMW) to view a mini on 17/1/24 at 8pm at their Enfield dealership.  

      Car was dirty and test drive was two circuits of roundabout on entry to the showroom.  Was p/x my car and rushed by sales exec and a manager into buying the mini and a 3yr warranty that night, sale all wrapped up by 10pm.  They strongly advised me taking warranty out on car that age (2017) and confirmed it was honoured at over 500 UK registered garages.

      The next day, 18/1/24 noticed amber engine warning light on dashboard , immediately phoned BMW aftercare team to ask for it to be investigated asap at nearest garage to me. After 15 mins on hold was told only their 5 service centres across the UK can deal with car issues with earliest date for inspection in March ! Said I’m not happy with that given what sales team advised or driving car. Told an amber warning light only advisory so to drive with caution and call back when light goes red.

      I’m not happy to do this, drive the car or with the after care experience (a sign of further stresses to come) so want a refund and to return the car asap.

      Please can you advise what I need to do today to get this done. 
       

      Many thanks 
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    • Housing Association property flooding. https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/438641-housing-association-property-flooding/&do=findComment&comment=5124299
      • 162 replies
    • We have finally managed to obtain the transcript of this case.

      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

      Frankly I don't think that is any accident.

      One of the points that the judge made was that the customers contract with the broker specifically refers to the courier – and it is clear that the courier knows that they are acting for a third party. There is no need to name the third party. They just have to be recognisably part of a class of person – such as a sender or a recipient of the parcel.

      Please note that a recent case against UPS failed on exactly the same issue with the judge held that the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 did not apply.

      We will be getting that transcript very soon. We will look at it and we will understand how the judge made such catastrophic mistakes. It was a very poor judgement.
      We will be recommending that people do include this adverse judgement in their bundle so that when they go to county court the judge will see both sides and see the arguments against this adverse judgement.
      Also, we will be to demonstrate to the judge that we are fair-minded and that we don't mind bringing everything to the attention of the judge even if it is against our own interests.
      This is good ethical practice.

      It would be very nice if the parcel delivery companies – including EVRi – practised this kind of thing as well.

       

      OT APPROVED, 365MC637, FAROOQ, EVRi, 12.07.23 (BRENT) - J v4.pdf
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Land Rover Freelander


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Claire (my OH) had a freelander until recently; we VT'd this month. The reason? We had the first engine blow up at 33,000 miles, the second engine blew up at 36,000 miles and thrid engine blew up on the 'test drive' after landrover had fitted it. Each time it was a failed con rod. So, after 4 engines out faith was, shall we say........low.

 

What is interesting is Landrover told us there had stopped making the petrol model we had (02) as 'at 60,000 miles the head gasket will go and thats a promise' GLUP!

 

Land rover said they had never had a con rod go before. However, when the chap came to pick to car on behalf of land rover, he said they had picked up so many with the same problem. Hmm I thought.

 

Just wonder if anyone else had the same problem ro knows anyone who had?

The law maybe reason without passion as Aristotle said, but hey, he said nothing about having fun when getting even!

 

Opinions given herein are made informally by myself as a lay-person in good faith based on personal expereince. For legal advice you must always consult a registered and insured lawyer.

 

 

Reputation Points Always Welcome

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Can I suggest that you go trawling round the Freelander sites and tell them that a register of con rod problems and others are being kept here.

 

HGF is well known on many petrol engined rover cars - esp the MGF.

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I also had a freelander petrol about 4 years ago. It was brand new...the joy of a good company car sadly now gone......and funnily enough it had to have a new engine at about 30,000 miles. It also drank oil as if it were a nice merlot!!

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I also had a freelander petrol about 4 years ago. It was brand new...the joy of a good company car sadly now gone......and funnily enough it had to have a new engine at about 30,000 miles. It also drank oil as if it were a nice merlot!!

 

I once say a quote - made me smile

 

"Land Rovers don't leak oil; their simply marking their terratory"

The law maybe reason without passion as Aristotle said, but hey, he said nothing about having fun when getting even!

 

Opinions given herein are made informally by myself as a lay-person in good faith based on personal expereince. For legal advice you must always consult a registered and insured lawyer.

 

 

Reputation Points Always Welcome

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Its the K-Series Rover engine that is the problem - they are common to the MGF, the Freelander and the Lotus Elise. Good engine but badly made. The Cylinder Head Gasket went (with no warning) on my MGF at about 45,000 miles. However it is possible to buy a Lotus racing head gasket (for £25) which is significantly better than the Rover standard one... worth doing if your's goes to at least stop it happening again. Rover also put plastic dowels to hold the head on (and save a few pennies per engine) which again can be replaced by metal ones for the grand sum of £1.

 

It is a pretty shocking way to manufacture an engine.

Smile £315 Paid In Full March 2006 (no court action)

MBNA £2600 Paid In Full May 2006 (no court action)

HBOS £5800 Paid in Full August 2006 (action raised but not defended)

Morgan Stanley £585 Paid In Full August 2006 (no court action)

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  • 4 weeks later...

You will probably find that it is the Rover engine that is the problem. I brought a Rover 214 just over two years ago. After three months and four days (thats four days after the warranty expired) I was driving up the motorway when the head gasket went. It also snapped the cam belt and cracked 2 cylinder heads. I had to get a new head gasket, cam belt, a reconditioned engine and a radiator which cost me £1250. The people that I brought it from described it as 'wear and tear' and Rover would not accept responsibility. I have head about this on other Rovers and Landrovers as well - it is something to do with the steel head gasket. If you go onto www.bbc.co.uk/watchdog, I think they have an article about it

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shame about the k-series engine being so problematic. i know that landrovers aren't the most reliable motors (speaking from experience having owned a nightmare unreliable freelander and currently a much better but not perfect discovery td5) but its not really their fault as its a rover engine. as landrover is now owned by ford they are going over to ford/ jaguar engines. poor old rover....they could never get it right. they never learnt.....from the dark days of british leyland upto their demise they basically produced absolute crap! how come the japs and germans can produce such a reliable car? they still have successfull motor industries while britains has dwindled away (crap management/ crap quality/ crap crap crap......). a real shame as we could design some decent cars but we just couldn't make 'em properly.

question...............how come foreign companies can come to britain and build extremely good quality/ reliable cars then????? (honda/ nissan/ toyota). proves its not the british worker at fault.

anyway, sorry to jibber jabber too much (the words of Mr T.)

Let the battle commence! Victory is imminent!

 

Abbey £228 charges refunded- no defence filed in small claims case

Abbey £720 claim. LBA sent. £430 refunded with no letter sent. Claim for full £720 sent to small claims court.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Toyota's 7M-GE/GTE engine, as fitted to the MA70-series Supra, was prone to blowing headgaskets and needed retorquing to new specifications. VW's 2.0 8v engine drinks oil. Ford's later V6 engines (Duratorq, related to Mazda's V6) suffer head gasket failure. Ford's Zetec 16v engines suffer sticking valves. BMW's engines have suffered problems with the Nikasil coating. The PSA diesel engines, particularly non-turbo units, suffer head gasket failures regularly.

 

Most manufacturers encounter problems with a product at some point.

 

The K-series problem in the MG F is exacerbated by the position of the thermostat. Being on the inlet side, it lets the radiator and pipes contents of cold water into the hot engine, and due to the long pipes, that's a lot of water.

Bank of Scotland - £4000+ returned. Scottish resident, scottish accounts, but it's Halifax Bank of Scotland now, so took 'em to court in Halifax. One small claims, one defence filed, one refund of all charges + interest! Done and dusted.

Next - Capital One :D

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Claire (my OH) had a freelander until recently; we VT'd this month. The reason? We had the first engine blow up at 33,000 miles, the second engine blew up at 36,000 miles and thrid engine blew up on the 'test drive' after landrover had fitted it. Each time it was a failed con rod. So, after 4 engines out faith was, shall we say........low.

 

What is interesting is Landrover told us there had stopped making the petrol model we had (02) as 'at 60,000 miles the head gasket will go and thats a promise' GLUP!

 

Land rover said they had never had a con rod go before. However, when the chap came to pick to car on behalf of land rover, he said they had picked up so many with the same problem. Hmm I thought.

 

Just wonder if anyone else had the same problem ro knows anyone who had?

Hi I'm a newby here but a longtime member of a large world-wide group of owners who are taking action against LR for this well known problem.

 

Its my intention in the next couple of days to post a comprehensive thread beginning to outline what we know, which is extensive about LR & their products.

 

Should you wish to join us please e mail me direct. As well as comprehensive tech help we also offer legal advice. Legal action has already commenced both here & abroad.

 

Before acceptance you will be required to complete a form disclosing some details about yourself & your vehicle. The reasons for this will be explained should you make direct contact

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Toyota's 7M-GE/GTE engine, as fitted to the MA70-series Supra, was prone to blowing headgaskets and needed retorquing to new specifications. VW's 2.0 8v engine drinks oil. Ford's later V6 engines (Duratorq, related to Mazda's V6) suffer head gasket failure. Ford's Zetec 16v engines suffer sticking valves. BMW's engines have suffered problems with the Nikasil coating. The PSA diesel engines, particularly non-turbo units, suffer head gasket failures regularly.

 

Most manufacturers encounter problems with a product at some point.

 

The K-series problem in the MG F is exacerbated by the position of the thermostat. Being on the inlet side, it lets the radiator and pipes contents of cold water into the hot engine, and due to the long pipes, that's a lot of water.

 

The K series was already a problem long before Land Rover installed it in the Freelander & they knew it

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No, I'm not a trader. But I also know "needs" doesn't require an apostrophe and I'm not obsessed with blaming others for my inability to maintain a car ;)

 

Type ANY car maker into google with head gasket failure and you'll finds loads of hits. As for people not buying Rovers, maybe you need to look at the sales figures and the number of K-series powered Rovers on the road; Rover going out of business has almost no connection with the K-series; apart from anything else, if the engine was that bad, maybe you should be taking issue with Ford ;)

 

But, since you know so much about the Freelander, when was the design finalised? What were the project codes during development? What car was the original prototype based on? When did the project start?

 

I'll give you a helpful clue: The Freelander's engine was decided upon in 1994.

 

Which models of MG has the K-series been successful in? And what about the Rover R8, R3, R6, HH-R? Badly maintained K-series engines may suffer HG failure, but that could be said of any engine.

 

Traders 'not touching' the Freelander is a bit of a red herring, too - they're popular used sellers, but if you mean they won't touch a V6, that's nothing to do with reliability and everything to do with fuel consumption and market forces. They also don't want 4.0 Jeeps, or petrol 4x4s of pretty much any flavour.

 

 

 

Just this one quote - just this - is sufficient to demonstrate that your grasp of tabloid editorial is much greater than your grasp of logic ;)

 

Badly maintained! Try telling that to the Freelander owner who has had to replace his engine more than once & even in one case 5 times. Try telling that to the many owners who aware of the situation check the coolant level after each journey, no matter how short.

 

To check the levels as much as is needed the Freelander would need a glass bonnet & even that is no guarantee

 

I suppose according to you all of these owners world-wide have failed to maintain their vehicles.

 

One dealer told a customer by way of claiming the Freelander wasn't a particular problem that ONLY a 3rd go wrong. A 3rd! thats over 33% yet the dealer was claiming that figure as a selling point.

 

We have written correspondence in which a FRANCHISED dealer principal admits to a customer that his low p/ex offer is because the Freelander is unreliable. Thats from the original selling dealer who serviced it from the outset

 

Engineers have researched the problem extensivley on our behalf & may have found the underlying problem.It appears its not down to bad maintenance by the owner but bad design & poor servicing techniques used by franchise & non franchise garages alike.

 

Amongst other things it involves poor techniques used when replacing the coolant. We have a couple of engines fitted with censors on long term test & should know more very soon

 

Its clear from your remarks you are something to do with or have a vested interest in LR & like much of the mangement of LR are in denial as to suggest that most cars will be plastered all over the internet advertising its problems as the Freelander is is a nonsense or I must assume you did not take my advice & check for yourself.

 

If you do may I also suggest you post your remarks on one of those sites then you may be able to have an informed debate with past & present owners. Perhaps you would be kind enough to let me know which sites you have chosen because I should love to watch

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I think you mean the Kia Sedona. Kia had input on the 2.5 V6, it is 'related' to the Rover unit - but I can find nothing to suggest it was anything other than merely a poor choice of engine for the workload, being a quad-cam 24V V6 more suited to revving and underpowered for the weight of car. Despite this poor application, it seems to be quite happy to lug the Sedona around for a while without failing...

 

Lotus stopped fitting the K-series engine because it wasn't federalized; they couldn't sell cars in the USA with the K-series, so opted for a Toyota unit.

 

As well as in the UK sites check out the American experience with the Sedona or even with an honest KIA dealer

 

Lotus... That is not the principal reason according to our 1st hand info

 

Anyway for those that claim otherwise wait until the s**t hits the fan both here & abroad when the truth will out

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As well as in the UK sites check out the American experience with the Sedona or even with an honest KIA dealer

 

Lotus... That is not the principal reason according to our 1st hand info

 

Anyway for those that claim otherwise wait until the s**t hits the fan both here & abroad when the truth will out

 

The US Market Sedona wasn't fitted with the 2.5V6 engine. HTH.

 

Lotus: I'll take my first hand info, and their press releases, and press statements, and nearly a decade of K-series powered Elise derivatives (a decade! Of course it took them all that time to figure out the K-series 'is defective'...), over the opinion of someone who appears to be decidedly bitter about some bad luck/bad maintenance with a car.

Bank of Scotland - £4000+ returned. Scottish resident, scottish accounts, but it's Halifax Bank of Scotland now, so took 'em to court in Halifax. One small claims, one defence filed, one refund of all charges + interest! Done and dusted.

Next - Capital One :D

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Badly maintained! Try telling that to the Freelander owner who has had to replace his engine more than once & even in one case 5 times. Try telling that to the many owners who aware of the situation check the coolant level after each journey, no matter how short.

 

To check the levels as much as is needed the Freelander would need a glass bonnet & even that is no guarantee

 

I suppose according to you all of these owners world-wide have failed to maintain their vehicles.

 

One dealer told a customer by way of claiming the Freelander wasn't a particular problem that ONLY a 3rd go wrong. A 3rd! thats over 33% yet the dealer was claiming that figure as a selling point.

 

We have written correspondence in which a FRANCHISED dealer principal admits to a customer that his low p/ex offer is because the Freelander is unreliable. Thats from the original selling dealer who serviced it from the outset

 

Engineers have researched the problem extensivley on our behalf & may have found the underlying problem.It appears its not down to bad maintenance by the owner but bad design & poor servicing techniques used by franchise & non franchise garages alike.

 

Amongst other things it involves poor techniques used when replacing the coolant. We have a couple of engines fitted with censors on long term test & should know more very soon

 

Its clear from your remarks you are something to do with or have a vested interest in LR & like much of the mangement of LR are in denial as to suggest that most cars will be plastered all over the internet advertising its problems as the Freelander is is a nonsense or I must assume you did not take my advice & check for yourself.

 

If you do may I also suggest you post your remarks on one of those sites then you may be able to have an informed debate with past & present owners. Perhaps you would be kind enough to let me know which sites you have chosen because I should love to watch

 

I have no vested interest in Land Rover, or the Freelander. I just have a strong interest in cars, and have been involved with cars - as a hobby and professionally for periods - for most of my 'adult' life.

 

1/3rd of Freelanders? What 1/3rd? 1/3rd of K-series engined models? 1/3rd of all Freelanders before 2002? 1/3rd of Freelanders at that dealer? 1/3rd of Freelanders not serviced by a main agent? I'll be impressed if 1/3rd of all Freelanders is a remotely relevant figure - I'd be pretty confident that diesel models outsell the petrol by some margin.

 

The word is sensors, btw. Censors are what you'd probably like when anyone talks sense regarding engine failures ;)

 

So one dealer has valued a car low because they know the history? So what. I've had a VW Beetle that leaked, a faulty damper on my RX8, and my 306 Cabriolet was a joke. The dealer couldn't fix the Beetle's leaking roof; it went back at the end of the contract to the supplying dealer and they will probably have fixed it.

 

If the dealers aren't servicing the cars correctly, that isn't an inherent issue with the K-series, but a problem with the dealers. You make yourselves look silly by attributing various causes and symptoms to one catch-all issue, and being unable to actually give reliable statistics with any context.

 

And yes; I suspect many people have failed to maintain their vehicles. if their dealer doesn't advise them correctly, then that is an issue with the dealer. I know I have told RX8 owners in the past that they MUST check their oil every 2nd fill up and top it up if it is low, because the car requires oil as part of the lubrication of the actual rotors - it is designed to inject it, use it for lubrication, and burn it. Some Mazda dealers clearly consider that this is too much to explain to buyers. As it is, my car uses 1 litre every 2,500 miles with my driving style, but they can vary drastically - a car used for many short trips will use much more.

 

IF my car's engine fails due to lack of oil, it is not Mazda's, or the Renesis engine's, fault. It is partially the fault of the dealer for not making me aware of this, and mostly my own fault for not reading the bloody manual.

Bank of Scotland - £4000+ returned. Scottish resident, scottish accounts, but it's Halifax Bank of Scotland now, so took 'em to court in Halifax. One small claims, one defence filed, one refund of all charges + interest! Done and dusted.

Next - Capital One :D

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I have no vested interest in Land Rover, or the Freelander. I just have a strong interest in cars, and have been involved with cars - as a hobby and professionally for periods - for most of my 'adult' life.

 

1/3rd of Freelanders? What 1/3rd? 1/3rd of K-series engined models? 1/3rd of all Freelanders before 2002? 1/3rd of Freelanders at that dealer? 1/3rd of Freelanders not serviced by a main agent? I'll be impressed if 1/3rd of all Freelanders is a remotely relevant figure - I'd be pretty confident that diesel models outsell the petrol by some margin.

 

The word is sensors, btw. Censors are what you'd probably like when anyone talks sense regarding engine failures ;)

 

So one dealer has valued a car low because they know the history? So what. I've had a VW Beetle that leaked, a faulty damper on my RX8, and my 306 Cabriolet was a joke. The dealer couldn't fix the Beetle's leaking roof; it went back at the end of the contract to the supplying dealer and they will probably have fixed it.

 

If the dealers aren't servicing the cars correctly, that isn't an inherent issue with the K-series, but a problem with the dealers. You make yourselves look silly by attributing various causes and symptoms to one catch-all issue, and being unable to actually give reliable statistics with any context.

 

And yes; I suspect many people have failed to maintain their vehicles. if their dealer doesn't advise them correctly, then that is an issue with the dealer. I know I have told RX8 owners in the past that they MUST check their oil every 2nd fill up and top it up if it is low, because the car requires oil as part of the lubrication of the actual rotors - it is designed to inject it, use it for lubrication, and burn it. Some Mazda dealers clearly consider that this is too much to explain to buyers. As it is, my car uses 1 litre every 2,500 miles with my driving style, but they can vary drastically - a car used for many short trips will use much more.

 

IF my car's engine fails due to lack of oil, it is not Mazda's, or the Renesis engine's, fault. It is partially the fault of the dealer for not making me aware of this, and mostly my own fault for not reading the bloody manual.

 

Quite 1/3rd as we are talking about a possible new purchase this year one can only guess.

Also just been contacted by an owner who's been offered by his franchised dealer from whom he bought it new for £17,500 2.5 years ago the grand p/x sum of £5,000 for his presently fault free Freelander

I have never had an engine failure know a lot of people who have though nor have I ever owned a Freelander.

As far reliable statistics they'll all come out in the wash but as I have already said because of impending court action I'm not going to disclose them on this public forum. As court dates have already been set it would be improper not to say illegal.

Also like most dealers you have this mind set that you can do no wrong & its all down to the stupid owner who refuses to look after their car properly.

As for the servicing the failure to refill the coolant correctly isn't down to the dealers its down to LR who have not advised them how crucial it is to do it correctly. Also that is one of the problems there are a number more

Clearly you only know about the Freelander from manufactures propaganda whereas I know about the Freelander from reality having dealt with owners from all over the world.

As for Lotus I don't care who you believe I know what I know & I know from whom I know what I know. I would just say press releases are just that press releases.

LR's bulletins make mention of various fixes but they make absolutely no mention of why

 

 

Also as you say if something is an issue you would caution the customer about what to look for (sure you would you really want to sell the motor dont you) Anyway that being the case why didn't LR advise their prospective buyers that there might be a problem. Why? because they know that to do so might alert the purchaser to a serious problem & they have stock to shift:p

 

 

Also if you didn't know (which I doubt) it's considered the height of bad manners on such forums to correct someones grammar or spelling. On many forums you would be warned off for such crass behaviour & anyway I have an excellent secretary wot does most of my typing except when i'm on ere:smile:

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Also if you didn't know (which I doubt) it's considered the height of bad manners on such forums to correct someones grammar or spelling. On many forums you would be warned off for such crass behaviour & anyway I have an excellent secretary wot does most of my typing except when i'm on ere:smile:

 

Indeed, but it is one of those things; I always feel that I am discussing an issue with someone less able to comminicate when I get these mistakes. It's never been considered the 'height of bad manners', unless it is of course the only reason for posting. Most people will only get it if I think someone is trying to pull an "I know more than you so shut it".

 

Anyway, I only quoted that bit to enable my response to go in the right place; something is very broken on this forum software and the quoted material and times are appearing all over the place!

 

Without knowing which 1/3rd, I'm withholding comment on that. Freelanders are very popular and early models had issues far greater than the K-series engines, such as the bodyshell which flexed and suffered cracks in the chassis-rails on the monocoque. A stiffener was added to production later. I seriously doubt 1/3rd of all Freelanders have serious issues, and I'd be surprised if it was 1/3rd of petrol models.

 

(FWIW, 1/3rd of Mercedes-Benz C-class models have to have rectification work from the production line, either at Mercedes or the dealer. Usually cosmetic though).

 

£5000 for a 2.5 year old Freelander doesn't sound that far behind industry norms to be honest; my £26,000 Subaru Legacy Outback was worth... £2,300 when it was five years old ;). Add another £1,000-£1,500 for retail value. Did this owner buy the car for cash, on a PCP, or finance btw? Rover (obviously nothing to do with LandRover by this stage) were hit with >£1,000 per car losses during the '90s when running the Personal Contract Purchase finance due to overestimation of the Guaranteed Minimum Future Value - resulting in dealers being handed back cars that were worth less to retail than they were costing! Most of the trade suffered similar setbacks, but Rover got it horribly wrong.

 

I know about the Freelander from knowing several owners, having mucked about with one myself, and knowing two dealers. How many have you driven/worked on, again? ;)

 

(And no. I'm not a dealer. I sell advertising).

 

I appreciate that car manufacturers can do wrong; you appear to have missed the points I made about my own experiences with bad cars - however, Nader has a lot to answer for. Car makers produce a consumable item now, like it or not, and they have a designed-in lifespan. Why do you suppose old cars are so cheap now? There has to be a limit on what is 'manufacturing defect' and what is 'wear and tear'.

 

The RX8's oil usage is not an issue, or rather, it's about as much of an issue as putting the fuel in is.

 

I always make sure I know how my car is to be looked after; this includes knowing how to refill the cooling system. IF the dealer hasn't refilled the cooling system correctly, then the dealer should be the one taken to court. if Land Rover then choose to support that dealer, that is their decision. Inability to understand and follow directions is no excuse, even/especially for a mechanic ;)

 

Since you appear to be representing/assisting people in making a legal claim, with no prior knowledge or ownership of the vehicle (despite this: "Hi I'm a newby here but a longtime member of a large world-wide group of owners who are taking action against LR for this well known problem."), maybe your opinion of the engines and vehicles is somewhat slanted. If you don't mind me asking, what exactly is your connection with the Freelander and knowledge of it, beyond this claim? ;)

 

it might be sensible, in future, to limit your output regarding the K-series engines to facts. Maybe "A certain number of Freelander owners have experienced problems with their cars which may be due to this manufacturing defect during this period", or "this erroneous service procedure", instead of "The K-series was already a problem before they put it in the Freelander and they knew it" - especially when it was chosen in 1994, a mere four years after the K-series was in series production, and prior even to the introduction of the 1.8 litre variant.

Bank of Scotland - £4000+ returned. Scottish resident, scottish accounts, but it's Halifax Bank of Scotland now, so took 'em to court in Halifax. One small claims, one defence filed, one refund of all charges + interest! Done and dusted.

Next - Capital One :D

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The K series was already a problem long before Land Rover installed it in the Freelander & they knew it

 

Before making statements like that, I suggest you learn something about car design and the history of the Freelander.

 

The K-series has problems in certain variants and installations, but is not inherently a defective engine. To say otherwise is to promote uneducated hysteria.

Bank of Scotland - £4000+ returned. Scottish resident, scottish accounts, but it's Halifax Bank of Scotland now, so took 'em to court in Halifax. One small claims, one defence filed, one refund of all charges + interest! Done and dusted.

Next - Capital One :D

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You will probably find that it is the Rover engine that is the problem. I brought a Rover 214 just over two years ago. After three months and four days (thats four days after the warranty expired) I was driving up the motorway when the head gasket went. It also snapped the cam belt and cracked 2 cylinder heads. I had to get a new head gasket, cam belt, a reconditioned engine and a radiator which cost me £1250. The people that I brought it from described it as 'wear and tear' and Rover would not accept responsibility. I have head about this on other Rovers and Landrovers as well - it is something to do with the steel head gasket. If you go onto www.bbc.co.uk/watchdog, I think they have an article about it

 

It sounds like your car wasn't maintained correctly. Snapping the cam belt suggests that it hadn't been changed, which frankly if you buy a car without checking the history and then don't request the dealer replaces the timing belt and tensioners, or have it done yourself, is plain daft.

 

And just how old, and what history and maintenance, had this Rover 214 had (they've been the Rover 25 since 1999, so your two-years ago Rover 214 would have been at least 4 and a bit years old - presumably also used given the three month warranty. In fact I'm being generous, since after the November 1995 model (R3) was announced they were technically "Rover 200").

 

Cambelts have nothing to to with headgaskets, and cracking two heads suggests that you overheated the car quite severely, or bought a used head for it the second time.

 

I appreciate that consumers need protection, but let's say you got a 1994 Rover 214 - a proper 214, not a 200 - in 2004. It would have been worth about £1,500 or less trade and at average mileage would have covered 120,00 miles. What the hell do you expect?

Bank of Scotland - £4000+ returned. Scottish resident, scottish accounts, but it's Halifax Bank of Scotland now, so took 'em to court in Halifax. One small claims, one defence filed, one refund of all charges + interest! Done and dusted.

Next - Capital One :D

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Indeed, but it is one of those things; I always feel that I am discussing an issue with someone less able to comminicate Rather pompous not to say arrogant don't you think then perhaps not when I get these mistakes. It's never been considered the 'height of bad manners', Well I suggest your try pulling it on other some forums unless it is of course the only reason for posting. Most people will only get it if I think someone is trying to pull an "I know more than you so shut it".

 

Anyway, I only quoted that bit to enable my response to go in the right place; something is very broken on this forum software and the quoted material and times are appearing all over the place!

 

Without knowing which 1/3rd, I'm withholding comment on that. Freelanders are very popular and early models had issues far greater than the K-series engines, such as the bodyshell which flexed and suffered cracks in the chassis-rails on the monocoque. A stiffener was added to production later. I seriously doubt 1/3rd of all Freelanders have serious issues, and I'd be surprised if it was 1/3rd of petrol models. To clarify the seller wasn't referring to any other problems. Only HG failures in his 3rd

 

(FWIW, 1/3rd of Mercedes-Benz C-class models have to have rectification work from the production line, either at Mercedes or the dealer. Usually cosmetic though). So what hardly relevant

 

£5000 for a 2.5 year old Freelander doesn't sound that far behind industry norms to be honest;Really thats not what other dealers have said nor does it match Glasses guide trade value my £26,000 Subaru Legacy Outback was worth... £2,300 when it was five years old ;). Add another £1,000-£1,500 for retail value. Did this owner buy the car for cash, on a PCP, or finance btw? Rover (obviously nothing to do with LandRover by this stage) were hit with >£1,000 per car losses during the '90s when running the Personal Contract Purchase finance due to overestimation of the Guaranteed Minimum Future Value - resulting in dealers being handed back cars that were worth less to retail than they were costing! Most of the trade suffered similar setbacks, but Rover got it horribly wrong.Yes we know about that to it resulted in a number of in house Finance Managers being sacked

 

I know about the Freelander from knowing several owners,I know many hundreds having mucked about with one myself, and knowing two dealers.Again I know many dealers How many have you driven/worked on, again? ;)None but then Iv'e never riden an elephant but I know what one looks like

 

(And no. I'm not a dealer. I sell advertising).For LR no doubt

 

I appreciate that car manufacturers can do wrong; you appear to have missed the points I made about my own experiences with bad cars - however, Nader has a lot to answer for. Car makers produce a consumable item now, like it or not, and they have a designed-in lifespan. Why do you suppose old cars are so cheap now? There has to be a limit on what is 'manufacturing defect' and what is 'wear and tear'.The OFT doesn't appear to agree with your interpretation of what is the life a buyer can expect a car to last & its far greater than it was. If it wasn't for Nader we would amongst other things still be getting our legs removed at the knee.

 

The RX8's oil usage is not an issue, or rather, it's about as much of an issue as putting the fuel in is.

 

I always make sure I know how my car is to be looked after; this includes knowing how to refill the cooling system. IF the dealer hasn't refilled the cooling system correctly, then the dealer should be the one taken to court. Thats what IS & has already happened if Land Rover then choose to support that dealer, that is their decision.They did but still lost Inability to understand and follow directions is no excuse, even/especially for a mechanic ;) Quite

 

Since you appear to be representing/assisting people in making a legal claim, with no prior knowledge or ownership of the vehicle (despite this: "Hi I'm a newby here but a longtime member of a large world-wide group of owners who are taking action against LR for this well known problem."), maybe your opinion of the engines and vehicles is somewhat slanted. No not at all I have been for many years the owner of many LR Products I'm on my 6th top of the range disco & it makes me very unhappy that this state of affairs has been allowed to exist If you don't mind me asking, what exactly is your connection with the Freelander and knowledge of it, beyond this claim? Just one? ;) For reasons I'm not prepared to explain I'm not prepared to say & anyway why would you want to know unless you have a vested interest.

 

it might be sensible, in future, to limit your output regarding the K-series engines to facts They are facts & unlike you I have them in abudance. Maybe "A certain number How many would you guess? of Freelander owners have experienced problems with their cars which may be due to this manufacturing defect during this period",The period was ongoing until production stopped last year or "this erroneous service procedure", instead of "The K-series was already a problem before they put it in the Freelander and they knew it" Quite & no one would listen when told- especially when it was chosen in 1994, a mere four years after the K-series was in series production, and prior even to the introduction of the 1.8 litre variant.

 

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Before making statements like that, I suggest you learn something about car design and the history of the Freelander.

 

No I'm sorry but I think its you who need’s educating.

I know all I need to know about car design & in particular the evolution of the Freelander. In fact I have a complete time line history of not only the Freelander but also the K series engine from it's inception to construction. I know when & where problems became known pre launch & post launch. I know what testing took place pre & post launch. I know when & where & how attempts where made to solve these problems. I know what attempts are currently going on to try & solve the problems for existing owners. I have the complete design specification down to the hardness of the metal. I even know the names of the engineers involved in its design, manufacture & installation

I'm part of a large world-wide group of Freelander owners all of whom have suffered HG failure in K series 1.8 engined Freelanders including the V6 variant. Amongst us are lawyers, doctors, & engineers, housewife’s, co. directors, film directors, HR directors, the self employed, the unemployed, housewives, single parent families, carers for the young, the elderly & some of whom are former employees of Rover Group/Power Train.

The only 2 vehicles in which the k series has been successful are the Caterham & some models of MG. In all others it has failed. The Rover Group who manufactured it through Power Train fitted it to their saloon cars & it was such a success that people stopped buying Rover Cars.

It was supplied & fitted to the KIA Seconda & was a disaster. (trawl the net if you want confirmation) Lotus also stopped fitting it because of the cooling problems.

I also know when, where & by whom suggestions where made as to how to solve the problem but where ignored on the grounds of cost

In fact much of the info we have cannot be disclosed because there are impending court cases against LR both here & abroad.

I suggest you type into your browser the following “Freelander Head Gasket Engine Problems” & wait for the hits. Then tell me I don’t know what I’m talking about. I do & so does the trade. Many dealers will not entertain the Freelander even in pt/ex & if they do they put it straight into auction. The rest are just hoping it won't go wrong until AFTER they have sold it & its off their premises

So from your remarks I must assume your NOT a trader otherwise you wouldn’t be claiming what you are.

There is one bright light on the horizon & that is the "new" Freelander will be fitted with an American engine. That’s assuming that like BMW Ford haven't kicked Land Rover into touch

The management of Land Rover are shocking & should be ashamed they have brought such an outstanding Marque to such a position. As this problem has become known together with LR's treatment of their customers which has not been short of disgraceful the number of lost sales must be staggering.

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No, I'm not a trader. But I also know "needs" doesn't require an apostrophe and I'm not obsessed with blaming others for my inability to maintain a car ;)

 

Type ANY car maker into google with head gasket failure and you'll finds loads of hits. As for people not buying Rovers, maybe you need to look at the sales figures and the number of K-series powered Rovers on the road; Rover going out of business has almost no connection with the K-series; apart from anything else, if the engine was that bad, maybe you should be taking issue with Ford ;)

 

But, since you know so much about the Freelander, when was the design finalised? What were the project codes during development? What car was the original prototype based on? When did the project start?

 

I'll give you a helpful clue: The Freelander's engine was decided upon in 1994.

 

Which models of MG has the K-series been successful in? And what about the Rover R8, R3, R6, HH-R? Badly maintained K-series engines may suffer HG failure, but that could be said of any engine.

 

Traders 'not touching' the Freelander is a bit of a red herring, too - they're popular used sellers, but if you mean they won't touch a V6, that's nothing to do with reliability and everything to do with fuel consumption and market forces. They also don't want 4.0 Jeeps, or petrol 4x4s of pretty much any flavour.

 

The only 2 vehicles in which the k series has been successful are the Caterham & some models of MG. In all others it has failed. The Rover Group who manufactured it through Power Train fitted it to their saloon cars & it was such a success that people stopped buying Rover Cars.

 

Just this one quote - just this - is sufficient to demonstrate that your grasp of tabloid editorial is much greater than your grasp of logic ;)

Bank of Scotland - £4000+ returned. Scottish resident, scottish accounts, but it's Halifax Bank of Scotland now, so took 'em to court in Halifax. One small claims, one defence filed, one refund of all charges + interest! Done and dusted.

Next - Capital One :D

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It was supplied & fitted to the KIA Seconda & was a disaster. (trawl the net if you want confirmation) Lotus also stopped fitting it because of the cooling problems.

 

I think you mean the Kia Sedona. Kia had input on the 2.5 V6, it is 'related' to the Rover unit - but I can find nothing to suggest it was anything other than merely a poor choice of engine for the workload, being a quad-cam 24V V6 more suited to revving and underpowered for the weight of car. Despite this poor application, it seems to be quite happy to lug the Sedona around for a while without failing...

 

Lotus stopped fitting the K-series engine because it wasn't federalized; they couldn't sell cars in the USA with the K-series, so opted for a Toyota unit.

Bank of Scotland - £4000+ returned. Scottish resident, scottish accounts, but it's Halifax Bank of Scotland now, so took 'em to court in Halifax. One small claims, one defence filed, one refund of all charges + interest! Done and dusted.

Next - Capital One :D

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I have highlighted my responses in your message

 

Why do you insist that I have some connection with LR? I SELL ADVERTISING. Not buy it. If I worked for LR, I would be BUYING, not SELLING, advertising.

 

I work in the photographic press. No connection with LandRover whatsoever. However, the valuation of my Subaru had no bearing on Glass' - very few traders use Glass' Guide, they use an online system which incorporates some basic HPI checking and validation provided by Equifax. Glass' valued my Subaru at £4,600 - the computer put it at £2,350. That's with FSH and assuming the car was in good condition.

 

The seller referring to 1/3rd of Freelanders having head gasket failures; again, no clarification if this is 1/3rd of all (in which case, which engine should be taking the blame here?), and the original post in this thread wasn't about head gasket failure, but throwing a rod. That's in the bottom end of the engine, in case you weren't aware.

 

With roughly 30-60,000 Freelanders produced/sold each year almost since introduction (including 33,000 sold in the US), that's a lot of Freelanders - I'd guess around 400,000+ worldwide (LandRover sold nearly 200,000 vehicles in total last year). So 1/3rd of those have suffered head gasket failure have they?

 

Have 1/3rd of the 33,000 KV6 powered Freelanders in the US suffered problems? And of the ones that have, how many are due to dealers being unused to the KV6 engine?

 

Of course, if you knew some traders, they should have told you that Glass' is pretty much nonsense these days ;)

 

On your 6th top of the range Discovery? They've been in production since '89, I guess they can't last all that long...

 

I wish you luck with your lawsuits, but I hope that if I ever have to join a class action against a car manufacturer, it is organised by people with sufficient mechanical knowledge and perspective to actually be credible.

Bank of Scotland - £4000+ returned. Scottish resident, scottish accounts, but it's Halifax Bank of Scotland now, so took 'em to court in Halifax. One small claims, one defence filed, one refund of all charges + interest! Done and dusted.

Next - Capital One :D

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  • 1 month later...

My response is to Richard_K and JonCris.

 

It is really simple, this forum is for the promotion of understanding. It is not for the toiled up ego of useless pety arguments. Whatever the first statement made was that inspired Jon or Richard to begin responding with a ridiculous/argumentative line of prodings meant to portray the accurser as superior was not worth the air breathed during the typing.

 

If you want to flash portray yourself on an internet forum, please reconsider, this is not the place to make ur political debut. If you really want to be respected and have an opinion worthy of respect read and ponder closely the words of your peer, before you disregard their value as they aren't spoken in your prefered voice, listen to them for what they are. Learn to see the value in what is said not the disvalue, when you catch (if lucky enough) yourself comparing what one is typing to your superior writing and thinking skills stop yourself immediately, you are not learning or promoting any production of further, merely playing devils advocate to yourself, and unfortunately, others.

 

Intelligence is often measured in silence, patience and restraint.

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Intelligence is often measured in silence, patience and restraint.

 

Indeed. Congratulations on speaking up, reviving a dead thread, and thereby proving the rule ;)

Bank of Scotland - £4000+ returned. Scottish resident, scottish accounts, but it's Halifax Bank of Scotland now, so took 'em to court in Halifax. One small claims, one defence filed, one refund of all charges + interest! Done and dusted.

Next - Capital One :D

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