SOGA how much is the chance to win a court case

[heliosuk]

It's not that difficult is it?

The car broke down, we don't know the exact reason only that the car was running iregulair, the AA diagnosed a blown Turbo.

Based on the findings of nation wide I decided not to repair because of the estimated costs

I asked the defentant what we were going to do about it, he was pretty clear that he didn't want to do anything.

The only way for me was dump the car and loose my money or go to court.

The Judge wants an examination of the car to determin if it already was faulty at the time of the sale, because the earlyer refusal of the defendant to examin the car they can't judge the case.

They made this clear to the defendant and he agreed in an examination now.

Now we have to await the conclusion of the examination, based on that there will be a judgement.

because thr defendant was moaning about the work done on the car, the judge wants me to show all bills of what is done on the car to the examinator, so they can make a proper judgement.

 

No it's not difficult aradam but you need to understand the implications of the op's post something perhaps you have ovelooked over your morning coffee?

[sailor sam]

No it's not difficult aradam but you need to understand the implications of the op's post something perhaps you have ovelooked over your morning coffee?

 

Aradam is the OP Helio! Or have I miss-understood something?

[aradam]

I went to this forum for advice, I can understand you point of view Heliosuk, but you have to keep in mind that I am a normal person I guess that you are a highly trained mechanic, but you should understand that not everybody is a trained mechanic and that there are people in the world that know less about engines than you.

This doesn't mean the rest of us is stupid, I am probably your equivalent in computers, unfortunately my car broke down and not my computer, so I have to get some advice in elsewhere

Maybe you can use your knowledge to help me in stead of pointing out how stupid I have been, that would be highly appreciated.

What happened has happened, nobody can change that.

It is the way out that count under these circumstances.

 

This is what I read as a consumer.

 

Forté Advanced Formula Motor Flush is fully compatible with all engine components and engine oils which are formulated to meet API and ACEA Service Classifications and international motor manufacturers'

 

I can't see from this (You stupid idiot don't use this stuff it will break down your turbo)

Maybe you can answer the question why the turbo broke down 5000 miles after this and not 250, the answer might not make me happy but it might be a start form defence.

First the defendant has to proof that the car didn't have those faults when he sold it to me.

At the moment it is a complete guess because there was no investigation.

I agree with you that an investigation will come to way more than £400,but the defendant told the judge nation wide would do this for £150, I think personally they have to take the engine apart.

I also read that the diesel pumps of those engines disintegrate, this courses the spreading of little metal parts in the system, what do you think happens with your turbo then?

It is now down to us to find somebody who wants to examin the engine and if I can't afford this the defentant can't proof anything or he must want topay the costs.

[heliosuk]

Sorry it’s taken so long to respond Aradam but have been away on business since your last post and have only just arrived home.

I have responded to you comments accordingly below.

I went to this forum for advice, I can understand you point of view Heliosuk, but you have to keep in mind that I am a normal person I guess that you are a highly trained mechanic, but you should understand that not everybody is a trained mechanic and that there are people in the world that know less about engines than you.

Aradam, you are getting advice, my point is you seem to be unwilling to heed it and rely on people quoting chapter and verse the SOGA which I frequently explain is not clear cut and in many circumstances with some of the posts in the transport section, should a dealer be bothered to defend it, can easily be. Yours in particular with the information posted at such a late stage is just one. I do understand that not everyone is a trained mechanic otherwise if they were they wouldn’t have asked for help on here would they?

This doesn't mean the rest of us is stupid, I am probably your equivalent in computers, unfortunately my car broke down and not my computer, so I have to get some advice in elsewhere

I have not at any time pointed out, said or implied that anyone that anyone is stupid and I respectfully point out I do somehow doubt you are my equivalent in computers. I do admit at times I can be a bit forceful in my opinions but if I had a computer problem I did not understand I would certainly listen to what is being said. If I thought you had been stupid I’d have said so long before.

Maybe you can use your knowledge to help me in stead of pointing out how stupid I have been, that would be highly appreciated.

So read on then instead of jumping to conclusions.

 

What happened has happened, nobody can change that.

Very true, and you need to extricate yourself from a potentially embarrassing situation

It is the way out that count under these circumstances.

So read then!

 

This is what I read as a consumer.

 

Forté Advanced Formula Motor Flush is fully compatible with all engine components and engine oils which are formulated to meet API and ACEA Service Classifications and international motor manufacturers'

 

And is it recommended as a service item by Renault and that you should use it?? It says is formulated to meet, it doesn’t say it works does it. If it was any good and enhanced the serviceability all manufacturers would be using it and recommending it but the fact is they don’t and there is a b****y good reason why. Have a read up on these forums of the “Good Garage” register and you will see what I mean.

 

I can't see from this (You stupid idiot don't use this stuff it will break down your turbo)

Maybe you can answer the question why the turbo broke down 5000 miles after this and not 250, the answer might not make me happy but it might be a start form defence.

 

Your defence or whatever (should it be necessary) must be that you serviced the vehicle in accordance with the manufacturers recommendations using oils approved by the manufactuer and parts of equivalent quality. Whilst this is perhaps more important in relation to vehicles under a “new warranty”, it will still have standing on a used car. Therefore it is important that you make sure there is no mention of this “Forte” stuff having been in the engine.

The reality is that an inspection to determine the exact root cause of the failure will not take place due to the cost of such an inspection which I have pointed out earlier however, should the “engineer” appointed get wind of the use of an “additive” used at any point which is not approved by the manufacturer then he will be obliged to point this out.

 

First the defendant has to proof that the car didn't have those faults when he sold it to me.

 

And he is saying it didn’t and the failure was the result of your servicing.

 

At the moment it is a complete guess because there was no investigation.

 

Exactly, but there is an element of doubt as the judge has ordered an engineers report.

 

I agree with you that an investigation will come to way more than £400,but the defendant told the judge nation wide would do this for £150, I think personally they have to take the engine apart.

 

Absolutely!! But don’t mention the oil flush. If it’s ordered that the engine is taken apart and examined then the use of a flushing oil will soon become apparent after a few tests however if the parties and judge are being sensible they must realise that you are not talking £400 now but more like £400 an hour!

I also read that the diesel pumps of those engines disintegrate, this courses the spreading of little metal parts in the system, what do you think happens with your turbo then?

 

I actually know exactly what happens with your turbo........nothing! The systems are not linked in anyway. Your pump is a totally different aspect so don’t get misled. I actually know exactly what the pump failure cause is apart from misfiling but I can assure you it has nothing to do with the turbo going pop.

 

It is now down to us to find somebody who wants to examin the engine and if I can't afford this the defentant can't proof anything or he must want topay the costs.

 

What I would suggest is that you go with the dealers suggestion of an engineer on the condition that you get a copy of the report in order to be able to challenge if need be any aspects of it. Obviously it will be cheaper as he wants to save money and make sure you are present when it’s done. Don’t answer any question other than to give him documentation to say it’s been serviced correctly.

Then post the report on here and I’m pretty sure that apart from having a laugh most can tear it apart to give you a good case to hit back at.

What ever happens, get rid of all references to Forte and an engine flush if you can.

[aradam]

Hi Heliosuk,

 

My apologies for reacting so strongly.

Take it from me that I listen to every word you are writing in this forum, I just have bit difficulties facing everything at the moment.

I don’t understand my own reactions on the court case, I went to court basically knowing where this was going, I probably hoped that the defendant would refuse to share in an investigation and that everything would be over and done with.

I still came home fuming for no reason.

Then I get told what I don’t want to know and I was of like a bazooka.

I agree with you about the technical details but there is no hiding unless they don’t ask for the maintenance bills.

The judge wants it sorted in April, but I can’t see an investigation at my front door bringing any outcome.

I am willing to go one more round, and then it will become unaffordable for me but when my gut feeling is correct there will be an investigation with the outcome that the turbo broke down, and if the judge sees this as a perishable item that will be the end, or they want a more specialised investigation.

I asked Renault for a statement on this and they said

 

I would not describe the failure of your turbo as being premature due to its current age and mileage, however should the vehicle have had the correct servicing conducted, then we would expect it to last longer.

But I doubt if a investigation at the roadside can bring up a course why all this happened.

When I look back the car has always been very slow but I didn’t see it because I blamed it on a small engine, a big car and the unfamiliarity with a diesel engine.

I should have gone back with the car earlier, but at the other end I doubt if that would have solved anything.

The issue is does this show up in an investigation, there must have been something wrong somewhere.

Hopefully today I get a phone number of a company the defendant found, and I can have a chat about what exactly they are going to investigate.

I found a assessment company that charges 500 ex vat for what seems a proper investigation

[sailor sam]

As i have said many times in this thread, the situation hasn't been helped by the attitude of the defendant. He is a prime example of the way a lot of used car dealers work; give it a quick vac and polish, grab the punters money and forget about it. Perhaps had he of given you more assistance than just providing you with a few phone numbers then thsi fiasco wouldn't of ended no where near a court and you being £100's out of pocket. What ever the investigation throws up, I do hope the judge dosn't let this rogue walk away with his bank account unaffected.

 

Make sure you get his contribution out of him before you have the investigation done.

[heliosuk]

Aradam,

 

I understand your frustrations fully and hate to say even if you win then next there is the hurdle of getting the money. Having said that there was a very good thread recently on how a poster actually went about getting his money back.

 

It does seem at times our legal system is fundamentally flawed and I personally believe that our countries laws do not necessarily reflect justice.

 

Anyway, in order to give you a Chobam Armour backside to aid your case I need you to tell me exactly which turbo is fitted to your engine. On the turbo is usually a rivited plate with the makers name and model. I could do with this info as it might just be one I have access to a drawing CAD model of so could section it and see the weak spots which might aid your case. Unfortunately, because of the age it is unlikely that any manufactuer could actually tell you from data whether or not it is a premature failure. However, with servicing in accordance with guidelines and the correct materials, it should have been good for 100k miles.

 

There is no way that an inspection as suggested by the judge will show root cause but I refer to previous post. Just bare in mind timing though as this will be critical. I'd expect the dealer to come up with something like we've got one a day before it's due back in court.

 

Where in UK are you?

[aradam]

I am in Milton Keynes, I'll have a look tomorrow,but the turbo is at the rear of the engine against so I don't know if I can even reach it.

[heliosuk]

You'd probably see it easier from underneath however I think if you ask around on the Renault forums someone will be able to tell you which one it has. You don't necessarilly need the serial number, just make and model.

[aradam]

Scenic dCi (1.5 Diesel)

Description Turbo Turbo Type KKK Turbo Model KP35 Eng Code/series K9K722 Bhp 80 SuppPartNumber 54359880002 Oe Ref No 8200119854

 

http://www.dieselevante.it/turbochargers.asp?idcodice=8200119854

[aradam]

I got this email from the dealer

 

"Hope to be get the inspection completed next week. What days are best for you as the company will need the keys"

After requesting the name and phone number it appeared a spares company close to the dealers main company, so I refused and gave him the name of a legal assessment company I found but I can't pay half at the moment so I asked if he had cheaper independent suggestions .

[sailor sam]

I got this email from the dealer

 

"Hope to be get the inspection completed next week. What days are best for you as the company will need the keys"

After requesting the name and phone number it appeared a spares company close to the dealers main company, so I refused and gave him the name of a legal assessment company I found but I can't pay half at the moment so I asked if he had cheaper independent suggestions .

 

Hi, I have seen your PM but am currently tied up so cannot digest it properley. My initial thought is that it would be better to deal with the assessor you have sorced. I suggest that you send the dealer a copy of the acceptence email from them where they state they are happy to progress further. DO NOT send the dealer a copy of the email you sent to the assessor in the first place. Have you sent Conniff the same info? If not will you do so.

[aradam]

This was the letter I sent to him, I got a letter from court that they want the expert report the 9th of March., the next court date is the 15th of April

[aradam]

Sam I can't sent you mail because jour mailbox is full,I snet you the whole mail exchange.

[sailor sam]

Mailbox has now space.

[aradam]

I gave the defendant another chance to fix the problem, I can't see a short term solution for an investigation, if I would have had the money for it I would have done it my self, the situation is not making the home atmosphere better.

[aradam]

I sent the email guy's, I couldn't wait, the report has to be in the 9th and the car isn't booked in anywhere jet,we have some time for the case though that is next month.

[sailor sam]

I've been tied up in last couple of days due to a family matter. You need to keep all copies of emails between yourself and the defendant which will show that you have soreced a suitable assessor following the defendant's un-acceptable suggestion. So I suggest that you send the following to the court with the attached copies of the relevant emails;

 

Dear Judge ********,

 

Re (Case details number ect.)

 

On 25th February, the defendant contacted me by way of email to suggest a local garage to him to carry out the inspection. On looking at this suggestion, I found it to be a 'spares' company which I believe is known to the defendant. I did not consider this to be independant enough to provide a relaible report and have sorced what I believe to be an appproved independant assessor who's profile meets with the court's criteria. I made the defendant aware of this by replying to his email. To date the defendant has not been forth-comming with a definative answer of whether he is in agreement with this and has made no offer of a contribution. Following the defendant's attitude and behaviour so far in this matter, I was not sufficiantly confident in making a firm arrangement with the assessor. Therefore in attempt to resolve matters, I have re-approached the defendant and suggested that he re-visits the option of rectifying the car rather than progressing to a full hearing. I am awaiting his response and will advise the court accordingly. Please see the attached email exchanges between myself and the defendant in relation to this matter.

 

Yours ect ect.

 

Obviously let us know if and when you get any kind of response from the defendant.

[aradam]

Hi Sam, I sent it roughly as I sent it to you, with the email exchange pasted in, because I was running out of time I didn't want to wait any longer, I haven't heard back from the defendant, everything depends on his reply now..

[sailor sam]

I would still send the above letter BY POST as back up.

[Conniff]

It's time now to stop bowing down to this dealers whims and his delaying tactics. You decide who will do it on the assurance that they are independent.

 

First thing this morning or as soon as you read this, phone Halfords and ask them if they will do the examination, the earliest date they can do it and an estimate of the costs.

[aradam]

I found another company,that will disasemble the engine and investigate the engine for 360 ex vat and is willing to write a report just within the deadline, so I sent the dealer one more email, then I have to make a desicion.

[aradam]

The defendant didn't react to my proposal last weekend, I think I have done what I could, I don't think I should agree with a company I don't trust, my run around car broke down, that cost me $85 that doesn't help, I think I just wait what happens, I sent the results to the judge in the hope she doesn't dismisses the whole case.

To my continence I did everything correct in the end it is the defendant who has to proof that the car was in good shape when he sold it.

[Conniff]

I think you have been very patient in fact too patient. Go with the assesor that you have found, get this over with.

[aradam]

Hi Conniff, I am a bit careful with this because we have specific instructions from the judge to do this together and when I just choose one I am going against the judges wishes, and there is another issue, I can only afford to pay half at the moment, if I order that company to go ahead, I have to pay the whole amount, you know what the defendant is like he didn't agree so he won't pay. I have a look at the end of this month when I get payed if I can afford the whole payment, then I can still decide what to do.