hearing next week no original agreement guidance needed

[upsndowns]

I have a hearing next week with lloyds and so far despite an order to provide original copies they have only shown me a faxed copy of the original agreement

I did recieve full reply to my sar and a faxed copy was all they showed in the reply

This was an unregulated agreement for a car that was bought thro a small dealer I suspect the original documents never got returned to lloyds only faxed back.

Will not having the original agreement be a strong enough defence to get this thrown out

they also have not complied with the order to provide the underwriting sheet

All comments welcomed

 

upsn downs

[upsndowns]

bump

[unclebulgaria67]

Faxed agreement should be ok. It depends on when the agreement was entered into and what other documents they are putting up with their claim.

 

If you have not got all the claimants paperwork, check with the court and ask for copies of everything that has been submitted by them.

 

You will only succeed in this, if you manage to make an argument that the claimant has not followed the correct procedures i.e Default notice was not correct issued.

 

When you defaulted on the loan, did they issue a default notice ? You could add to photobucket after removing personal info and post a link. If you click on the red triangle in your post, this will bring your post to the site teams attention.

[upsndowns]

I do have all of the claimants paperwork and the point re the faxed copy is that the original terms are not on the same page as the signature and there is no link to the two faxed copies.

I recieved several default notices at various times all telling me they were "GOING"to cancell the agreement none saying that it was terminated

 

MY argument will be that they do not have the original agreement ( as ordered) and that there is no way they can prove the 2 faxed copy is linked to the terms and conditions. I am therefore embarrassed

 

I shall also argue that the default notices were invalid due to lack of clarity but I am less stisfied with this line of arguement

 

The Hearing is on Monday next

 

Upsn downs

[unclebulgaria67]

If the hearing is Monday coming, you would have needed to send the court your defence, stating your grounds for them dismissing the claimants application.

 

Have you done this yet and if so what do you enter on the form ?

[upsndowns]

If the hearing is Monday coming, you would have needed to send the court your defence, stating your grounds for them dismissing the claimants application.

 

Have you done this yet and if so what do you enter on the form ?

 

 

Uncle thanks for you input

 

I sent the defence in from the initial claim pleading embarrassed we then went to allocation questions in which I submitted an embarrassed defence due to no particulars of claim

I asked for original docs to be brought to the hearing and for underwriting sheet and correct default notice this was all put in the order to the other side including copy of under writing sheet,

the other side were late in submitting by over a month and have only shown the copy of the fax to me not a copy of the original document

This is where I think I have them The original docs should have been sent to them from the dealer but they are not shown in sar or in the reply to my AQ

They are ordered to bring originals to court on monday

 

what happens if they only have copies that are sworn to be of the original even though it show at the top it is a fax

I think that they cannot prove that it is a true copy

 

how would you move it on the day??

 

upsn downs

[citizenB]

site team are aware of your question..

 

Just one query, are you saying that they have not complied with a court order to produce documents ?

[upsndowns]

site team are aware of your question..

 

Just one query, are you saying that they have not complied with a court order to produce documents ?

They have not supplied all of the ordered documents

no underwrting sheet

no details of commsion paid to the agent

the agreement is only a copy of a faxed copy

and they were over a month late with complying to the order

 

upsn downs

Edited July 14, 2010 by upsndowns

[smugorwhat]

Just subbing as I have similar situation.

[citizenB]

I am wondering if you should be writing a letter to the court advising that you are still in an "embarrassed" position as documents as required by the court order of DATE.. have still not been provided to you.

 

I wouldnt be inclined to leave it till the last moment.

 

You should address your letter to the court manager at the court the hearing is to be held.

 

You should reference the letter with the

 

court claim number

Creditor Name v upsndowns

Time and date of hearing

 

If you are able to, I would be inclined to hand deliver the letter to the court.

 

HTH

[upsndowns]

I am wondering if you should be writing a letter to the court advising that you are still in an "embarrassed" position as documents as required by the court order of DATE.. have still not been provided to you.

 

I wouldnt be inclined to leave it till the last moment.

 

You should address your letter to the court manager at the court the hearing is to be held.

 

You should reference the letter with the

 

court claim number

Creditor Name v upsndowns

Time and date of hearing

 

If you are able to, I would be inclined to hand deliver the letter to the court.

 

HTH

 

MMmmmm Interesting tactic, I can certainly deliver this tomorrow or friday for the hearing early next week

 

Should I request a strike out or am I simply trying to get the judge on my side??

thereby putting them on the hoof

Is ther anything I should request in this letter other than all of the documents

 

ups n downs

[citizenB]

MMmmmm Interesting tactic, I can certainly deliver this tomorrow or friday for the hearing early next week

 

Should I request a strike out or am I simply trying to get the judge on my side??

thereby putting them on the hoof

Is ther anything I should request in this letter other than all of the documents

 

ups n downs

 

You are simply pointing out that a court order has been ignored / partially ignored and has therefore frustrated your attempts to defend yourself properly.

 

I would think that if you were wanting to go for a strike out then you would have to present it by way of an N244 application which would cost you £75.00, I think.

 

This way you are giving the Judge advance warning that there is likely to a bit of a problem..

[upsndowns]

How should I approach the hearing I really dont understand the grounds that I am going win with.

My thoughts were

1/ an embarrassed defence due to missing information ordered to be supplied

2/ If the original agreement is not taken to court I shall aks that the fax is not acceptable as it is a copy that is not linked in any way to the terms and conditions

3/I clearly remember the car dealer telling me that the car would always have a higher value than the outstanding balance of the loan as it had a balloon payment this is why I am asking for details of commissions so that I can see if they had gained fininacial advantage by leading me astray.

 

upsn downs

[citizenB]

Have flagged your query for the site team.

 

You say in the first post that this is an unregulated loan, so I am not sure of what is required.

[upsndowns]

bump

[citizenB]

Hi U&D,

 

It would appear there may not be any requirement for a Default Notice to be issue on an unregulated loan, But there will still be a requirement for a Letter before Action.

[upsndowns]

I am filling the following in court today,

 

claimant

 

vs

 

 

 

Defendant’s response to the reply of the Claimant dated .......to the court order of Judge.........[/font]

 

 

The defendant respectfully asks the court to consider the following:

 

 

 

 

The Defendant is embarrassed and unable to plead in a satisfactory manner[/font]

 

 

 

 

1/The claimants were over 5 weeks late in supplying the response to the order of Judge ......... dated .........

 

 

 

 

 

The deficiencies and tardiness in the response have not given the defendant sufficient time as a litigant in person to investigate nor to fully defend the claim

 

 

2/ The copy of the agreement provided under the order is a copy of a faxed document from the dealers original copy and cannot be linked to the terms and conditions the claimant has provided.

 

 

The copy is one of 3 pages faxed on.........and the 2 other pages are not provided.

 

 

To the best of his belief, the defendant only previously received a top copy of the agreement with no terms and conditions attached.

3/ No details have been provided by the claimant showing the underwriters sheet contrary to the order of Judge ........

4/ No details have been provided by the claimant showing the commission paid to the dealer also contrary to the aforesaid order.

 

 

 

In the claimants witness statement item 5 the claimant clearly states that the defendant has been provided all data held by the claimant under the data protection act enquiry that the defendant made on ......2010 in an attempt to resolve the dispute.[/font]

 

 

The Defendants initial request for information was made prior to any action made in court however the request was not fulfilled until The request remains incomplete as many numbered pages are missing from the report received from the claimant.[/font]

 

 

The defendants conclusion to the inadequacies of the claimant’s documentation is that the defendant has been frustrated by the claimant in his attempt to resolve the matter both prior to and following court action[/font]

 

 

The defendant remains embarrassed and unable to plead effectively and therefore respectfully asks the court to dismiss the claim.

upsndowns

Edited July 16, 2010 by upsndowns
remove hypertext

[citizenB]

As you dont have the paperwork, I guess there isnt much more you can add.

 

Perhaps, that you respectfully request permission to submit a more detailed defence should the claimant provide the information as requested by the defendant and ordered by Judge ?? on DATE.

 

HTH

[upsndowns]

I have sumbitted now and will let you know how I go on after the hearing

Citezin B thanks for the help

 

upsndowns

[upsndowns]

The hearing today went reasonably well the other side were not happy it had been allocated to small claims rather than fast track and asked for it to be reallocated to fast track judge still decided to hear the bones of the case

Judge went on to give a new order moving to fast track and either making the faxed copy linked to a copy of the terms and conditions or to supply the original for inspection in 21 days the other side made a call trying to find the original but struggled so it may not be available they certainly didnt bring it to the hearing today

 

My case rests on whether I was given the T&C at the time of signing so I suppose I will no have to wait and see what they come up with

 

Is no terms and conditions a good enough reason to get their claim thrown out??

 

They havent got a faxed copy linked to the copy that you have seen so it rests on whether they have got the original tucked away somewhere and some how manage to dig it up what do think??

 

Thanks for your help

 

Upsn downs

[unclebulgaria67]

Is no terms and conditions a good enough reason to get their claim thrown out??

 

Unless they can evidence that you signed the agreement, having been supplied the terms and conditions or come up with the originals, they will struggle.

[upsndowns]

Unless they can evidence that you signed the agreement, having been supplied the terms and conditions or come up with the originals, they will struggle.

 

How will they struggle?

Does that mean it would be unenforcable?

U&D

[unclebulgaria67]

How will they struggle?

Does that mean it would be unenforcable?

U&D

 

I believe that if they could not convince the judge that you had sight of the terms and conditions at the time of entering into the agreement, that they could rule the agreement unenforceable.

 

BUT, you would need to start looking into the full arguments that you would make. It does not help that at the moment you only have a faxed copy and the possible t&c's that applied at the time. So you will to concentrate on that at the moment and look to find information that will help.

 

Hopefully those that have more in-depth on the CCA and case law, will see the post and add their comments. You could of course look to get help from a solicitor. Community legal advice may be able to help with this.