UK IVA or Bankruptcy and Aussie Property

[jetaus]

Hi all

 

I've searched high and low trying to find an answer to my particular situation and I've not been terribly successful. I'm hoping someone here might be able to help.

 

The short story is I was living in the UK until around 18 months ago when I was transferred back to Australia by my employer.

 

I was managing my debt ok and thought I'd be able to continue, but I'm

finding that increasingly I'm having to borrow to be able to keep up with my

commitments in Australia and in the UK and am not making enough money each month to cover all my expenses.

 

I have a mortgage on a house in Australia with my partner which we have had for around 12 months - we obviously have very little equity in the property and the cost of the mortgage is equivalent to renting in Sydney.

 

I have around £17000 - £20000 in debt to 4 creditors.

 

I'm not sure entirely what to do, as I understand if I become bankrupt in the UK then I will lose the house in Australia as well?

 

I've tried investigating the possibility of an IVA but keep drawing a blank - I thought you could have an IVA within 3 years of leaving but now a lot of the online "Debt Helplines" are saying they don't do it, so that leaves me with a possibility of going Bankrupt - something I don't particularly want to do either.

 

So my questions are:

 

- Can I get an IVA while living in Australia and if so, any ideas who I could approach.

 

- Given my circumstances, are the creditors likely to accept or reject my application for a IVA?

 

- If I go bankrupt in the UK, is my house in Australia (which is mortgaged and jointly owned by my partner) in jeopardy.

 

The important thing here is that I've kept up with repayments, but Im sinking pretty fast and I want to resolve it before it gets messy. I'm not trying to shirk my responsibilities but I'm at a dead end at the moment, so any ideas would be appreciated!

[cerberusalert]

I take it these are UK debts, have you checked to see if they are enforceable?

 

Remember, although there are reciprocal agreements between the UK & Oz a creditor can only take enforcement over there if they have already obtained a CCJ here in the UK & they cannot legally do that against a non-UK resident, they would have to use the jurisdiction in Oz which in most cases is not a financially viable option for them. In most cases they'll send reams of threatening letters (most of which is total rubbish) and then eventually pass it on to an Oz company who are equally toothless. Have a read through http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/overseas-debt-overseas-account/221573-debt-being-chased-australia.html it's a bit long but it will help you understand the situation over there.

 

You can apply for bankruptcy within three years of leaving the UK and yes I'm afraid any property you have in Oz will be included. As for the IVA, I'm sure most companies won't handle it but there may be one or two who do, you could check this out; Can I do an IVA while living abroad? | IVA Advice | Confidential IVA Helpline

[jetaus]

Thanks for the reply...

 

I've had a read through the thread, but I'm not sure it has clarified or raised more questions....

 

I'm assuming my debts are enforceable - I've been paying them for sometime and they've been in existence for around 4 years, so I'm guessing the paperwork won't be too hard to find for them.

 

I'm not sure that they wouldn't want to pursue the debts - American Express have a presence in Australia as does Egg (via Citibank), and HSBC I'd rather not "skip" on my debts and sort out an appropriate outcome - but it's near impossible it would seem.

 

Going bankrupt doesn't seem to be an option anymore - I can't lose the house here - we'd never get another with the way the housing market is.

 

Cr@p - I'm really up the creek it would seem.

[cerberusalert]

I'm assuming my debts are enforceable - I've been paying them for sometime and they've been in existence for around 4 years, so I'm guessing the paperwork won't be too hard to find for them.

It's always worth a try, there can be several reasons why they can't produce it. and even if they do it does not necessarily make it enforceable.

[cerberusalert]

Do any of these a/c have PPI included? If they do you can reclaim it thus reducing the alleged debt.

[3tea]

I take it these are UK debts, have you checked to see if they are enforceable?

 

Remember, although there are reciprocal agreements between the UK & Oz a creditor can only take enforcement over there if they have already obtained a CCJ here in the UK & they cannot legally do that against a non-UK resident, they would have to use the jurisdiction in Oz which in most cases is not a financially viable option for them. In most cases they'll send reams of threatening letters (most of which is total rubbish) and then eventually pass it on to an Oz company who are equally toothless. Have a read through http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/overseas-debt-overseas-account/221573-debt-being-chased-australia.html it's a bit long but it will help you understand the situation over there.

 

You can apply for bankruptcy within three years of leaving the UK and yes I'm afraid any property you have in Oz will be included. As for the IVA, I'm sure most companies won't handle it but there may be one or two who do, you could check this out; Can I do an IVA while living abroad? | IVA Advice | Confidential IVA Helpline

 

Cerberusalert,

 

I am in a similar position to the originator of this thread, but there are a couple of things I don't understand.

 

This is my understanding so far.

 

1.UK creditor has to have a UK CCJ before it can take enforcement action against the debtor overseas using the Court system of the debtors domiciled country?

 

2. A UK CCJ can't legally be obtained against a non resident?

 

I have read elsewhere that Bankruptcy proceedings can be instigated by a creditor without obtaining a CCJ by the issue of a Statutory Demand.

If this is the case, what is to stop a creditor by-passing getting a CCJ and going for a Stat Demand against a non resident from the outset?

 

Regards,

 

3tea

[3tea]

Hi all

 

I've searched high and low trying to find an answer to my particular situation and I've not been terribly successful. I'm hoping someone here might be able to help.

 

The short story is I was living in the UK until around 18 months ago when I was transferred back to Australia by my employer.

 

I was managing my debt ok and thought I'd be able to continue, but I'm

finding that increasingly I'm having to borrow to be able to keep up with my

commitments in Australia and in the UK and am not making enough money each month to cover all my expenses.

 

I have a mortgage on a house in Australia with my partner which we have had for around 12 months - we obviously have very little equity in the property and the cost of the mortgage is equivalent to renting in Sydney.

 

I have around £17000 - £20000 in debt to 4 creditors.

 

I'm not sure entirely what to do, as I understand if I become bankrupt in the UK then I will lose the house in Australia as well?

 

I've tried investigating the possibility of an IVA but keep drawing a blank - I thought you could have an IVA within 3 years of leaving but now a lot of the online "Debt Helplines" are saying they don't do it, so that leaves me with a possibility of going Bankrupt - something I don't particularly want to do either.

 

So my questions are:

 

- Can I get an IVA while living in Australia and if so, any ideas who I could approach.

 

- Given my circumstances, are the creditors likely to accept or reject my application for a IVA?

 

- If I go bankrupt in the UK, is my house in Australia (which is mortgaged and jointly owned by my partner) in jeopardy.

 

The important thing here is that I've kept up with repayments, but Im sinking pretty fast and I want to resolve it before it gets messy. I'm not trying to shirk my responsibilities but I'm at a dead end at the moment, so any ideas would be appreciated!

 

Jetaus,

 

Just wanted to let you know you are not alone!! I am in NZ and in an identical position to you.

 

I could not pay anymore, and I made my last payment to UK creditors over a year ago.

 

I made sure they knew where I was, and all of them sent threatogrammes to a PO Box here for some months.

 

An interesting point here is that out of 8 different creditors, all of them stuffed up the default notice by incorrectly wording it, or simply demanding payment prior to the date by which the default should have been rectified.

These facts alone make enforcement problematical for them, even if I was still in the UK.

So, if you have threatening letters, it may be worth checking the default notices for errors, which you may be able to use later if things get ugly.

 

Despite threats of all sorts of things, nothing has happened to me yet, and all of them have given up sending me threatogrammes.

 

I await their next move, but just wanted to reassure you that its not that bad, and try not to lose sleep over it!

 

Regards,

 

3tea

[cerberusalert]

I have read elsewhere that Bankruptcy proceedings can be instigated by a creditor without obtaining a CCJ by the issue of a Statutory Demand.

If this is the case, what is to stop a creditor by-passing getting a CCJ and going for a Stat Demand against a non resident from the outset?

Because they can't Bankrupt a non-UK resident either. In law you have to be able to defend yourself & have the right to have the case heard in a town closest to you. They cannot transfer it to Oz/NZ because it's outside the court's jurisdiction.

[kbob]

Jetaus,

 

I made sure they knew where I was, and all of them sent threatogrammes to a PO Box here for some months.

 

 

 

I'm in a situation where I've told them my new Non UK address. Still I see with the tail end of my mail redirection, they are sending default notices to my old address.

 

For example - I spent about 30min on the phone to blackhorse updating them on my non resident status and Non UK address, had to go through two different supervisors before they found someone who knew how to update their their system with a Non UK address! - And still they send demands and defaults to my old address.

 

The DCA jokers are the worst the same threatograms are going out to Non UK and UK address at the same time.

 

My big worry is I'm now residing within the EU so a default UK CCJ could lead to a EEO EPO. I'm sure there is a way to fight such a order but I don't want the additional stress. Having read the thread of the Croation informing blackhorse and NorthHampton court of his non UK residence status it seems like it takes a few registered letters for the courts to see sense.

 

I've been careful to make sure I have documented proof of the start of my Non UK residence foreign registration local health care cards etc..

 

I would like to know if anyone if in a similar situation where UK creditors and DCAs have tried enforcement of CCA 1974 CC debt within the EU? My current figure of unsecured CC debt across multiple creditors is 40k 10k is the largest single amount.

 

Regards,

 

kbob

[cerberusalert]

My big worry is I'm now residing within the EU so a default UK CCJ could lead to a EEO EPO.

If they obtain a CCJ that way you can get it set aside.

Having read the thread of the Croation informing blackhorse and NorthHampton court of his non UK residence status it seems like it takes a few registered letters for the courts to see sense.

Northampton Bulk Centre is an automated online service & there is no 'human' intervention. Creditors clearly try to bypass the warning on the website that the defendant has to have a UK address.

[ozzyboy]

I'm not sure that they wouldn't want to pursue the debts - American Express have a presence in Australia as does Egg (via Citibank), and HSBC

Don't worry about this - They may have the same names but as high street banks they have nothing to do with their UK counterparts.

 

They're all part of the same multi-national group but have no access to any of your UK account details.

 

Quite apart from the Data protection issue, all the paperwork relating to your account is based on UK legislation - they can't simply transfer all of this to Australia.

 

Try it for yourself - give Amex a ring and ask if you can relocate your account to Australia. I know what they'll say

[squid68]

Hey all, Am reading this thread and it is similar to my predicament.

 

I left the UK in Dec 2010. Am in Brasil and just about out of cash now. Paid for ticket back to Oz though and heading home after 10 years there and 6 months here...

Problem is, I got a 110% mortgage just before the crash, in the UK around September 2008 . Go figure. So I have been advised to go bankrupt as they can still chase me in 15 years time, and if, god forbid, something happens to my parents, goodbye family home.

 

Would this be a reality all to tyrannical to bear??

[ozzyboy]

Do you want to have another try at that?

You say you left the UK in Dec 2010...that's in 6 months' time. What date did you actually mean?

Also, why is your parents' home at risk if you default on your mortgage?

[squid68]

Sorry ozzyboy, my mistake. Yes it was last year, December 2009 when I came to Brasil. When I left the UK it was very fast. I literally packed up and walked out the front door, locked it up and 'down to Heathrow'. With wife and baby..

 

I was speaking to my mother prior to posting on this thread and she says is worried about leaving the house to me in her will due to the house debt in UK and about 5-8 other debts. She mentioned that while I am unemployed here in Brasil, that it would be a good time to look in to bankruptcy.

 

I probably left the UK owing approx: N/Rock House loan £170,000 + HSBC £3000 and some others accumulating to about £10,000..

 

Although the house loan is out of N/Rock jurisdiction in Australia, they could still sell the debt on which would then haunt me in the future as I want to set up back home in Australia. It would annoy me to lose the family home further down the line.

[cerberusalert]

Have a read of; http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/overseas-debt-overseas-account/255040-declaring-bankruptcy-if-you.html

[squid68]

I did look at this last night but got a bit lost. The problem is that I can't afford to go back and can't afford the costs of hiring a company to do it for me(bankruptcy). Useless and broke springs to mind...

 

Perhaps the 'power of attorney' option asking a friend in the UK to represent me may be one option..