Theft from My late Mums Bank Accounts

[paola]

My mum passed away July 2009, I become suspicious (along story) about my sister stealing from my mum and so requested her statements from the bank

I found a lot of unusual and out of character activity on her accounts.

Money withdrawn through ATMs consistently everyday to the maximum and often twice aday within a minute of each other

And money was transferred between accounts. investments transferred and then cashed in.

I am 100 percent sure this is my sister, as she was the only one with access to my mums cards and pin numbers.

she also has a long history of theft, she forged mums signature at the bank and withdraw all her money 26 years ago and when my dad died in 1991 a house was sold and proceeds deposited into the bank. My mum never touched that money but it is all gone.

so far £100,000 has been stolen but i have stopped counting as i feel so sick.

i don't even think i have uncovered the full extent as i only have statements from 2002 - 2009

i have not said anything about this to my sister, as since mums death she has cut off the whole family and will not speak to anyone this is over the house mum left us, which she is living in and changed the locks. she is refusing to progress with the probate and wants to contest the will to take everything.

 

I really don't know what i can do about this theft from mums bank accounts.

i dont think i could live with myself if i did nothing and allowed her to get away with this.

 

Any and all advice is greatly appreciated.

Edited June 22, 2010 by paola
spelling mistake

[miss muppet]

Well, basically, you have to bite the bullet and go to the Police don't you, put all the evidence before them and let them deal with things.

[slick132]

Hi Paola and welcome to CAG.

 

Did your sister have Power of Attorney in your mum's affairs, or an authority to act in connection with your mum's banking affairs.

 

Are you an executor of your mum's will, if there was one. And was anyone else (family or solicitor) appointed by the will as executor.

 

Do you have a copy of the will.

 

Was the house paid off (free of any mortgage) and registered in your mum's name only.

 

[paola]

Hi and thank you so much for your warm welcome

 

Slick132 - No my sister did not have power of attorney, or any authority to act in mums banking affairs whatsoever

 

We are both executors and beneficiaries of the will, with no-one else appointed

 

I do indeed have a copy of the Will

 

Mums house was paid off many years ago and registered in her sole name.

 

Miss Muppet - My sister is so manipulating and convincing that my fear is she will somehow talk her way out of this if i take it to the police....but if it is the only way, i will do it.

 

My extended family are furious and want to confront her, ( they had their suspicions for many years, only wish they said when mum was alive)

So there may be a showdown soon i think.... if we can get through the door!

Edited June 22, 2010 by paola
spelling mistake

[patrickq1]

i think you really have to inform your sister as much as you disdain from this but you just let her know even by phone that you have now gone to the police with this,she may have had power of attorney without your knowledge,but you really need to confront this head on and stop any debts going onto the property and she may get a loan on the strengh of whats left...

patrickq1

[slick132]

Hi Paola,

 

I think the best way forward for now is to let your sister know that you are aware of all the withdrawals made from your mother's a/c's over the years and you intend to have this fully investigated, involving the police if necessary. Particularly, regarding the £100K that's gone missing after the house sale in 1991.

 

Let her know that you have all the copy statements which show how money was systematically withdrawn using ATM's on a daily basis.

 

I think you should seek an initial free consultation with a solicitor to run through the situation briefly and see if they are able and willing to help you sort this out.

 

Your sister's suggestion of contesting the will is probably just a stalling tactic. As YM left a will, it is highly unlikely that it is contestable unless there are some exceptional circumstances.

 

The sol'r can help you obtain Probate and can also, if necessary, notify Land Registry that there has been questionable activity and that no change to the property Deeds should take place until outstanding issues are resolved.

 

I would not contact the police immediately but would say to YS that you WILL do this if she fails to co-operate fully. Again, your sol'r can guide you on this.

 

My reasoning is that, if you use the threat of police involvement, she may co-operate to avoid that police becoming involved.

 

The other thing to be aware of is that the police may initially be disinterested, saying this seems to be a civil matter. However, if you are right about YS taking the money without authority or not using it wholly for YM's benefit, it is most certainly not a civil matter but a criminal one.

 

[patrickq1]

well put slick,

patrickq1

[oilyrag]

Yes Slick--- well put.

 

However on the power of attorney issue, someone very close to us is having to deal with his partner's problem with a parent having dementia. Clearly there had to be an enduring power of attorney put into place. The solicitor concerned explained that the rules have changed (partly due to money laundering regulations) and the legal forms now required are quite a task to get together. My viewing of them showed two law packs each about 3/4" thick. Hence I would suggest that due to the seriousness of this case that ascertaining the existance (or otherwise) of a legally binding P of A should be relatively easy. There is a will and I am told it is unlawful for one executor to act unilaterally without the knowledge or permission of the other(s).

 

I also felt that to use another's card and PIN number in any way, ATM or otherwise is also unlawful and falls foul of the criminal law technically. I personally would advise professional help here and most solicitors are not ogres, most will offer a 30 minute session/assessment for free if they are any good. An awful lot of ground can be covered in 30 minutes if you put a proper file together of the documentation you have.

 

One thing in your favour is that the courts have expressed concern recently at the rapid growth in the "vulture syndrome" (one academic's words no mine) over deceased's estates.

 

The police and the bank almost certainly will be unsympathetic as proving fraud has become a notoriously difficult thing to do these days and the Serious Fraud Office has let us all down very badly in recent years. A subject I could go on about at length but won't for your sakes.

 

Best regards and I will keep an eye out on this thread to see if I can help further.

 

oilyrag.

[Mozz1]

Oily, you'll only know if there is an EPA or LPA if it has been registered at the Court of protection. Neither type of POA have to be registered until the donor has lost, or is in the process of losing, mental capacity. The new LPAs cannot be used until they are registered and a lot of donors do this voluntarily while they have capacity.

 

On the issue of the withdrawals from the bank accounts, it is always an evidential question. What evidence is there that these were not gifts by the deceased? Were signatures forged? Did the deceased make personal withdrawals and if not where was she on any given date etc. hard to prove.

 

The bank has to reimburse the estate if wrongdoing is proved but proving it is difficult.

[oilyrag]

Thanks Mozz1

 

as you will ee from the post, my contact with it is due to a dementia issue but I assumed that the "new" rules would apply across the board and it was implied that anything older and not conforming may please note may be open to challenge.

 

regards

oilyrag.

[Mozz1]

Hi Oily. I was referering to your comment:

 

"Hence I would suggest that due to the seriousness of this case that ascertaining the existance (or otherwise) of a legally binding P of A should be relatively easy."

 

What I am saying is that this depends on registration of the EPA or LPA with the Court of Protection. If it's not registered then it is going to be hard to determine if one has been drawn up and has been acted on.

 

Certainly under the new LPAs if the Donor wants his/her attorney to act for them, while the Donor has capacity, it needs to be registered. The Donor can of course revoke while s/he capacity. Also, the Donor can place restrictions and conditions on the new-style LPA.

 

It is not possible for a Donor who is adjudged to have lost mental capacity to make an LPA.

 

EPAs are no longer available since late 2007 and these documents were more prone to abuse by unscrupulous attorneys than the new LPAs. For one thing, they could be used immediately without the requirement for registration; and for another there was no provision to notify anyone.

 

But, as I say, unless registered it is difficult for a non-attorney to find out anything. Attorneys can of course be sued for negligence and even prosecuted for wrongdoing. That's down to obtaining provable evidence again which on a police investigation for any wrongdoing would come out in the wash.

[Mozz1]

Oily, the new rules do not apply across the board, no.

 

Existing EPAs remain valid. So, if a pre-2007 EPA was drawn up and remains unregistered then there might not be anyway of knowing one has been drawn up. One of the reasons why the new-style LPAs were introduced was to provide better protection for the Donors of POAs.

[oilyrag]

Thanks Mozz

 

regards

oilyrag.

[samigirl]

hi paola, this has just happened to my mum too who has also passed away, just with different money amounts. I was wandering what you did about your situation and what happened?.. It may help me to decide what to do too

 

My mum passed away July 2009, I become suspicious (along story) about my sister stealing from my mum and so requested her statements from the bank

I found a lot of unusual and out of character activity on her accounts.

Money withdrawn through ATMs consistently everyday to the maximum and often twice aday within a minute of each other

And money was transferred between accounts. investments transferred and then cashed in.

I am 100 percent sure this is my sister, as she was the only one with access to my mums cards and pin numbers.

she also has a long history of theft, she forged mums signature at the bank and withdraw all her money 26 years ago and when my dad died in 1991 a house was sold and proceeds deposited into the bank. My mum never touched that money but it is all gone.

so far £100,000 has been stolen but i have stopped counting as i feel so sick.

i don't even think i have uncovered the full extent as i only have statements from 2002 - 2009

i have not said anything about this to my sister, as since mums death she has cut off the whole family and will not speak to anyone this is over the house mum left us, which she is living in and changed the locks. she is refusing to progress with the probate and wants to contest the will to take everything.

 

I really don't know what i can do about this theft from mums bank accounts.

i dont think i could live with myself if i did nothing and allowed her to get away with this.

 

Any and all advice is greatly appreciated.

[slick132]

Hi Samigirl and welcome to CAG

 

I don't know if you'll get any response to this as Paola didn't respond to our suggestions and that was nearly 2 years ago.

 

Please feel free to start you own thread to discuss your case. Go to the forum for the bank concerned and hit the NEW THREAD button.