We have so much debt, it seems only hope is selling house!

[wilchil64]

Would the letter below be ok to send to M&S following their letter requesting I&E etc (see above pdf file):

 

"This letter is a formal request pursuant to s.78(1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974. I require you to provide me with a true copy of the credit agreement relating to the above account, together with any other documentation the Act requires you to provide.

 

I expect you to comply fully and properly with this request, within the statutory time limit. You are reminded that should you fail to comply with my request, the provisions of s.77(6) will apply.

 

Your attention is drawn to ss.5(2), 3(b),6 and 7 of the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 (CPUTR).

 

I enclose a postal order in the sum of £1.00, which is the statutory fee. Note that these funds are not to be used for any other purpose.

 

If you are unable to comply fully and properly with this request, you should confirm this in writing at the earliest opportunity, and certainly within the statutory time limit for compliance, and return the fee.

 

I wrote to you on 23rd June 2010, requesting that you freeze interest and other charges on my account and offering a monthly payment of £y. The letter stipulated “For the avoidance of doubt the enclosed cheque no. xxxxxx should only be banked if you are accepting my proposal and in all other circumstances it should be returned to me without being banked.”

 

However, you have taken the payment but declined to accept the terms stipulated in my letter.

 

I am not obliged to provide you with my income and expenditure details. As stated in my letter dated 23rd June 2010, the amount I have to make repayments to all my creditors is £x. On a pro-rata basis, I am therefore able to pay you a regular amount of £y per month on the condition that you agree to freeze interest and other charges on my account, to give me a realistic chance of reducing this debt. This is the most I can offer in my present circumstances.

 

I look forward to hearing from you.

 

Yours faithfully".

 

Thanks for your help.

 

 

[Undercover-Elsa]

Hi hon,

That's spot on. You just need to change the s. 77 (6) to s 78 (6) in the 2nd para, being section 78 which applies to credit cards.

(If you do a loan one you put s. 77 in both places)

 

Elsa x

[wilchil64]

Hi hon,

That's spot on. You just need to change the s. 77 (6) to s 78 (6) in the 2nd para, being section 78 which applies to credit cards.

(If you do a loan one you put s. 77 in both places)

 

Elsa x

 

Arghhh! can't believe I missed that - thanks Elsa, I'll change it.

[Undercover-Elsa]

We've all done it

[wilchil64]

When I got back from a weekend away last night, there were several letters, from companies we've sent letters re lower payments/freeze interest etc and cheques to.

 

I have to work now, but will scan them in later or tomorrow for advice.

 

However, basically they are sort of ignoring the terms that we offered lower payments under and requesting the rest of the payment owed, threatening with late payment charges etc.

 

I guess I'm going to have to send the above CCA letter, which also reminds of the terms we sent the lower payment under, to all of them.

[wilchil64]

Below are the letters received over the weekend.

 

Shall I just write back, pointing out that we have given them the information they require, we don't intend to phone them or give them I&E? Shall I request CCA? (bearing in mind Sainsburys loan - the first one - taken out about a year ago, Santander taken out early this year).

 

Thanks.

sainsburys 1.PDF

santander 3.PDF

[Rhia]

Hello Wilchil have lost track a bit so without looking back and taking these two letters I would write (yet again I know it's a pain) as follows:

With Sainsbury's I would reiterate that you wish to keep everything in writing as you have a numb er of creditors with whom you have arrangements and it's difficult to keep on top of details etc by using the phone. Include a copy of the earlier letter to re-confirm everything.

 

The Santander one - it's not entirely clear if they have received your letter/offer (all it says if you have made an arrangement ignore this letter). Just to make completely sure write again to them and cover in a copy of the original letter and ask them to confirm in writing if they have accepted your proposals.

[wilchil64]

Hello Wilchil have lost track a bit so without looking back and taking these two letters I would write (yet again I know it's a pain) as follows:

With Sainsbury's I would reiterate that you wish to keep everything in writing as you have a numb er of creditors with whom you have arrangements and it's difficult to keep on top of details etc by using the phone. Include a copy of the earlier letter to re-confirm everything.

 

The Santander one - it's not entirely clear if they have received your letter/offer (all it says if you have made an arrangement ignore this letter). Just to make completely sure write again to them and cover in a copy of the original letter and ask them to confirm in writing if they have accepted your proposals.

 

Thanks Rhia. That sounds like a good plan to me. Do you think I should wait before sending CCA letter to any of the companies? (M&S have also replied, requesting we fill in an I&E form and call to discuss arrangements, so I could also send them a letter saying we'd rather keep things in writing due to number of creditors, difficult to keep on top of details etc. etc.

 

Santander had already written to us, stating that we should contact them to discuss arrangements and requesting we fill in an I&E form. I haven't replied to that letter yet.

[Rhia]

Well it's a right royal pain in the ass to have to keep repeating yourself but I would do so (and have done so). For a start, eventually a human being might answer your letters and actually read them but also they will end up looking pretty foolish if you can produce a file of identical letters you have sent in an attempt to sort this out.

 

They all want these effing IE forms. My own experience of them was with just one creditor a while back and I went through the whole rigmarole and they turned me down for hardship consideration - even though it was clear as daylight I was struggling but they do it to a formula with no place for the human.

 

Therefore I think I am with Elsa and take the view that you tell them what you can afford rather than the other way around. I would be inclined to say to anyone who is insisting on this along the lines of - look matey we have done our sums, we have pared everything to the bone and we have left XXX each month which we are dividing between XXX creditors and sorry if it doesn't suit but that's all your getting for now as we do have a child and we do have to eat, keep a roof over our heads and live y'know.

 

Except I am sure you can word it more diplomatically than me.

 

Re CCA yes I think I would just hold off for a little while until you have managed to establish and agree a repayment with each of them. Once this is settled then request CCA.

 

As they are recent and with the changes under the 2006 version of the Consumer Credit Act, I suspect you will have little to come from this but you never know!

[wilchil64]

OK, thanks for that.

 

I will write to them again, don't mind repeating myself if I get somewhere in the end!

 

On the plus side, the first positive experience is that Next have emailed me to say they will accept the lower payment and freeze interest and charges as long as we make payment by the date stated in the statement. Hurrah! One down ....

[Undercover-Elsa]

Hi Wilchil,

that's great!

Now you can include in your reply that your other creditors are being far more helpful and have accepted your offer, which is a realistic one being actually slightly more than a judge would determine should you present your I&E to court...you are making a genuine attempt to sort this out and are sure they are aware that there would be little point in offering an amount you could not maintain. You feel their demands for more detailed personal information are unnecessarily intrusive when you have already verified the figures with CCCS.

etc

[wilchil64]

Hi Wilchil,

that's great!

Now you can include in your reply that your other creditors are being far more helpful and have accepted your offer, which is a realistic one being actually slightly more than a judge would determine should you present your I&E to court...you are making a genuine attempt to sort this out and are sure they are aware that there would be little point in offering an amount you could not maintain. You feel their demands for more detailed personal information are unnecessarily intrusive when you have already verified the figures with CCCS.

etc

 

 

That sounds good, thanks Elsa! I'll cobble together a letter today and get it sent off.

[wilchil64]

Received another letter from M&S. It seems they are just ignoring everything I said in my last letter, see my letter of 22/7/10 below:

 

(" I wrote to you on 23rd June 2010, requesting that you freeze interest and other charges on my account and offering a monthly payment of £8. The letter stipulated “For the avoidance of doubt the enclosed cheque no. 102143 should only be banked if you are accepting my proposal and in all other circumstances it should be returned to me without being banked”.You have taken the payment but declined to accept the terms stipulated in my letter. My other creditors have accepted my realistic offer. I am making a genuine attempt to sort this out and I am sure you are aware that there would be little point in offering an amount I cannot maintain.I feel your demands for more detailed personal information are unnecessarily intrusive when I have already verified the figures with CCCS.As stated in my letter dated 23rd June 2010 (copy enclosed), the amount I have to make repayments to my creditors is £321. On a pro-rata basis, I am therefore able to pay you a regular amount of £8 per month on the condition that you agree to freeze interest and other charges on my account, to give me a realistic chance of reducing this debt. This is the most I can offer in my present circumstances.")

 

 

Can I just write back again and say "as previously stated we have contacted CCCS to complete their I&E form and worked out how much is available to pay our creditors. On a pro-rata basis therefore we can pay you .... bla bla bla ... "

 

 

Should I say something about it not being my fault that their system is rubbish, that they cash in cheques without reading the correspondence that goes with it!!! Or do I just accept that they have cashed the cheque but aren't prepared to accept my terms? Should I pay them £8 a month as they state, even though they haven't accepted my terms and I'm not happy to fill in their I&E form?

 

 

 

Tbh we're talking £480 here! I could pay it off now with the money accumulated in my account if needs be!

 

 

 

More letters to follow in a bit, just need to scan them too!

 

 

Thanks for the help!

marksandspencer5810.PDF

[wilchil64]

Here's the next letter we've received, from Sainsburys loan people. This is my letter they were replying to:

 

" I wrote to you on 5th July 2010, requesting that you freeze interest and other charges on my account and offering a monthly payment of £144.45. The letter stipulated “For the avoidance of doubt the enclosed cheque no. 102146 should only be banked if you are accepting my proposal and in all other circumstances it should be returned to me without being banked”. You have taken the payment. Please confirm in writing that you have accepted my proposals.My other creditors have accepted my realistic offer. I am making a genuine attempt to sort this out and I am sure you are aware that there would be little point in offering an amount I cannot maintain.I feel your demands for more detailed personal information are unnecessarily intrusive when I have already verified the figures with CCCS.As stated in my letter dated 5th July 2010 (copy enclosed), the amount I have to make repayments to my creditors is £321. On a pro-rata basis, I am therefore able to pay you a regular amount of £144.45 per month on the condition that you agree to freeze interest and other charges on my account, to give me a realistic chance of reducing this debt. This is the most I can offer in my present circumstances."

 

 

I know I don't have to supply I&Es, shall I just write and say the same again, more or less?

 

 

i.e. "I feel your demands for more detailed personal information are unnecessarily intrusive when I have already verified the figures with CCCS.As stated in my letter dated xxx (copy enclosed), the amount I have to make repayments to my creditors is £321. On a pro-rata basis, I am therefore able to pay you a regular amount of £144.45 per month on the condition that you agree to freeze interest and other charges on my account, to give me a realistic chance of reducing this debt. This is the most I can offer in my present circumstances."

 

 

The letter was dated 29th July 2010, so hold on agreement will be until 8th August.

 

 

Thank you very much for your help. One more letter coming up .... !!

sainsburysloan5810.PDF

[wilchil64]

We received this letter from the HFC. I'll send a letter, similar to the others, reiterating that is all I can afford on a pro rata basis, and that I won't be sending I&E as unnecessary intrusion .... etc.

 

Should I be continuing to pay these companies the lower payment I offered even though they haven't accepted my terms yet, or should I pay nothing until an agreement has been reached?

 

Thank you!!

HFC5810.PDF

[Rhia]

This doesn't surprise me at all. These companies rely so much on computerised letters and call centres where no-one takes responsibility for anything that they seem to find it impossible to react properly to an individual letter.

 

I would carry on paying the amount you have told them you can pay. Send the letters once more but address to head of customer services. If no response this time I would send them directly to the Chief Executive's Office at each place along with copies of each letter you have sent them.

 

It's a disgrace they are incapable of helping someone who is taking responsibility for their debts. You are doing a great job wilchil.

[wilchil64]

Thanks Rhia. That's a great idea.

 

I had presumed they weren't computer generated letters, as they knew of my letter and request, but yes they seem unable to act on it.

[wilchil64]

Can I ask for some more advice?

 

Re. our debt on a MBNA credit card, we have now received the following letter from Aegis Limited, who are it seems a debt collection company. We have also received at least one call a day from them, but I am refusing to discuss the matter on the phone with them, telling them we have written to MBNA and to put anything they have to say in writing.

 

We have only written to MBNA twice, telling them we can't pay, requesting they freeze charges and interest and offering them a lower monthly payment. They replied to the first letter saying they need to see our income and expenditures and names and amounts re. other creditors. They cashed our lower payment cheque, despite our request that they only cash it if they accept our terms to freeze charges and interest!! As have all other creditors bar one done too!

 

We wrote back and told them we have verified our figures with CCCS and it was therefore unnecessarily intrusive to demand more detailed information. Following that we have now received a letter from Aegis ... copy attached.

 

Not sure how to handle this. Do I correspond with MBNA or Aegis or both? Can they even do that?

 

Thank you very much in advance.

 

I feel like we're getting nowhere, the situation doesn't seem to improve, I'm trying hard to save the money we're not spending on mortgage, but my husband's car needed its MOT, my car needed a new tyre, soon needs another and my husband's needs two tyres! On top of that my dog is ill and the vet is costing me a fortune!

 

I'm feeling so stressed and back to not sleeping, I wish these companies would just accept the lower payments for now and let us get on with it!

aegis letter mbna 1.PDF

[Rhia]

Oh Christ on a bike have you seen where this is sent from...sodding Mumbai? Sorry to go off one one WilChil but I have tangled with MBNA in the past and they are possibly the worst of the credit card companies. What you have is typical of their responses.

 

How to proceed? Write a very stiff letter to MBNA and send a copy of this garbage with it. Restate you have made an arrangement to pay and are sticking to it. You cannot afford to pay any more at this time and such action from them will a) make no difference and b) result in a serious complaint to the Financial Ombudsman and Trading Standards. Furthermore ask them where and when you ever agreed to your personal details being handed over to India.

 

I would also start an official complaint to the Information Commissioner with regard to MBNA sending your personal data out of Europe.

 

This is a new low for them. I also see they have moved offices to Widnes. I wonder if Widnes Trading Standards are gettiong as many complaints as Chester TS did over this shoddy company?

 

PS. Chin up WilChil. It is very, very hard I think everyone on CAG knows how hard. Stick with it you'll get there and be in a far better position in the end.

Edited August 19, 2010 by Rhia
Add PS

[Bigdebtor]

Wilchill

 

Sorry to disagree with Rhia - but I think this needs to be handled with a bit more thought and care at this deleicate time. I'm going out now but I shall do a more considered reply with what I would do now 1st thing tomorrow morning.

 

Don't despair You ARE making progress. - you wouldn't have had the cash to pay out on these unexpected things if you hadn't taken the steps you have.

 

Don't worry about getting taken ot court - I'm pretty certain it just won't happen as long as you are paying them something - and could prove it was what you could afford. Any judge would simply order you to pay what you can afford - an dthat would probably be even less than you are paying them just now.

 

Keep the faith and I'll get back to you tomorrow!

 

BD

[wilchil64]

Thanks guys! I'm very grateful for your help.

 

Will wait to hear from you tomorrow, BD.

[Rhia]

Well BD you seem to have considerable success so am happy to listen to how you would handle this one. I wouldn't give MBNA and inch so perhaps my view of them is, by experience, bleak.

 

But I do agree you are doing very well and if you look at BD's profile you can see how much more debt he had and how he's sorted it out. Keep the faith.

[Bigdebtor]

Rhia

Thanks for your reply. I am glad you didn't take offence as none was intended. I do very much sympathise with the "shooting from the hip" sentiments but none of these guys - OC or DCA - are in the least sentimental and I suspect they get a kick out of seeing just how worked up they can get us and reading our emotional responses to their threats and lies.

 

The only way to deal with them is to take a deep breath and fight them with knowledge of our rights and how the law protects us - they hate that! They also get confused if we are polite and pro-active/co-operative - they're not used to that sort of response.

 

Wilchill

I think the sort of letters you have been sending are great and exactly what you should do. As far as this Indian DCA is concerned I would do a "very polite" (but TIC) letter along the lines of:

 

Dear Sir,

 

Thank you so much for your letter of XXX and the very kind sentiments you express regarding how I and my indebtedness to MBNA are regarded by them. I am indeed trying my very best to get my finances back on an even keel and it's nice to have these efforts recognised by such a reputable and well know organisation as your own.

 

However I do believe your letter has been sent in error since I have only recently reached an agreement with MBNA directly to accept an affordable monthly amount of £x together with suspension of all interest and charges. I therefore do not understand your reference to "further charges" being imposed and would ask you to refer this matter back to MBNA to avoid any further inconvenience on your part. I do regret that in this occasion your efforts have been somewhat in vain but do wish you every success in assisting others who may not yet have reached such a suitable arrangement with creditors".

 

(DON'T KNOW WHY ITALICS CAME IN THE MIDDLE THERE?).

 

It looks as if MBNA are still going to impose further charges and interest. I wouldn't challenge this too overtly - as it might just lead to impasse. You don't really want them to recognise too early they have been suckered into accepting your payments on your terms. If you can get them to take a few more monthly payments then you have a much better case to cry "foul" with OFT, FSA etc if they continue to charge interest and late payment charges etc. after continuing to take your cheques.

 

Instead I would continue to send the token monthly payment to MBNA - along with a letter (pre-dating the date on the Indian letter) saying

 

"Thank you for accepting my proposals of XX/XX/2010 and accepting my payments of the reduced amount of £x per month on XX June and XX July (etc.). I now enclose cheque number XXXXX as the agreed payment for August as promised. You will recall that my offer was conditional on all future interest and charges being frozen and, whilst I know that by accepting such payments you have accepted my proposals and will have honoured this agreement in full on your part, I should be grateful if you would send me an up to date statement reflecting the freezing of interest and charges".

 

Don't refer to the Indian DCA at all. The chances are the dizzy bimbo (of either sex) opening the letter will just be programmed to recognise "Cheque = put in for banking" and "Letter = file without reading but just send out a totally irrelevant badly spelled template letter in the hope of annoying this poor sod even more"

 

PS - TIC = Tongue in Cheek (Just in case you thought I was getting soft with these guys!)

 

As I said I really believe the risk of court action whilst any payments at all are being made is zilch - but in the unlikely event... any old judge will just read your words and deduce how helpful you were trying to be - they don't do sarcasm. Your monthly payments will not be set any higher than you can afford. You will not be put out of your house!

 

BTW I saw you are paying someone £140 odd per month - that seems a bit high for a "token" payment? You also say you are getting a lot of "unexpected" 1-off costs like new tyres, vet bills etc. I would look back on your original I&E and see if you need to amend it pro rata to cater for such bills being an ongoing thing - and then amend your token payments accordingly - especially to those who have not yet accepted your proposals - other than taking your money in acceptance. It is accepted in an I&E that you need to "have a life" - budget for holidays, meals out, enetertaining etc. as well as the essentials. You are in control - you decide how much you can afford and how much each creditor will get.

 

I hope this all makes sense and will work for you (as a similar tack has worked for me).

 

BD

Edited August 20, 2010 by Bigdebtor
typos

[wilchil64]

Ah, BD, you are a star! Thanks for the reply.

 

I worked out the payments to be made to our creditors on a pro-rata basis as suggested by CCCS, and the payment of £144 was for the company I owe most to. Do you not agree with a pro-rata payment, or do you just think I should lower the amount I have available to pay them in order to pay for these one off problems like new tyres, vet bills and also to give myself a chance to save more? How are the companies going to react if I change the amount I pay them now though?

 

I'll sit down with my OH tonight and put together a letter to the Indian company and to MBNA. Another payment isn't due til 1st September if I'm making monthly payments, but that is only just over a week away anyway.

 

One more question (for now! ): Should I make all payments by cheque? The reason I ask is I opened a new bank account without cheques from the Co-op (as suggested earlier, as I have large overdraft with my other current account) so if I send a cheque it has to come from my old current account which is overdrawn. Not a huge problem as I just transfer money across from the Co-op account to the other one, but I could be making direct bank transfers online from the Co-op account in payment to my creditors. I realise that means I don't get to send a letter to them though, that I can show if necessary in future.

[Bigdebtor]

Wilchill

 

For the next few months - to establish a pattern and giv ethe creditors plenty of rope to hang themselves, I would continue to pay them by cheque and enclosed a nice "so grateful to you foraccepting my proposal" type letter with every cheque - quoting the cheque number on each letter. After a pattern is indisputably set - and they haven't written to tell you about arrears and further late charges (like MBNA have via the Injuns) then you can set up to pay them electronically via the Co-op account. NEVER give any of them Credit/Debit Card details (with the 3 digit security number) which would let them take further payments themselves in future. Always stay in control of who, when and how much you pay.

 

As far as changing the amount paid, then remember - in real life the unexpected happens, people make mistakes and can be over -optimistic in what they can afford to pay - so revamping your I&E and changing the amount is not unreasonable as events unfold over time. I am now only paying to two creditors £5 each - previously I was paying one £140 and the other £100. I am paying the all of other outystanding ones zilch as these accounts are all in dispute for one reason or another. This is about £600 less than I was paying a few months ago based on my earlier I&E and I am putting away as much of this £600 as I can into an account in my wife's name in case I get an acceptable F&F offer from these two.

 

Is the £140 recipient one who has written to accept? If so, then I would send a slightly lower amount (£100?) and ask them to accept this in future as you had got your sums wrong, forgetting to budget for new tyres, MOT repairs etc. If they have not overtly accepted your offer, I would send a much much lower amount and include a letter along the lines of your original one - you thought you could afford £140 per month - but you hadn't taken into avccount unexpected 1-off's like new tyres, MOT, repairs, some annual bills (insurance, road tax etc.) - so all you can actually afford now is £xx - and go down very substantially - say to £4X instead of £14X. Remember you are trying to build up a war chest so you can pay any decent (25-30%) F&F some time in the future.

 

Have another look at your thread title - think of where you are now compared to where you started out from just a few months back - keep the faith and keep chipping away at the debts - but under your terms.

 

BD

Edited August 20, 2010 by Bigdebtor