Court Hearing on 9/06/10 - Egg/Cabot/Morgan v me - need help!!!

[Rhia]

Not sure what to say Martel but if it's a joint arrangement Cabot surely can't just slap this interim CO over the entire thing. That's illogical - but then since when has this legal system been logical.

 

Suspect this may be down to your neighbours to serve a notice on Cabot.

[Martel]

Thanks, Rhia......

 

hmmmm....logic? Where IS Mr Spock when I need him?

 

It appears that once you've lost a case, then the Claimant can apply for just about anything at court and get it, with no obligation to tell the Defendant.

 

The DJ gave me 7 days during the summer to appeal - the exact time I was away. I wrote the to DJ and requested an extension. No reply. I sent the letter again, Special Delivery. No reply. The court clearly knew I wanted to extend the appeal period but ignored my letters.

 

Is it worth applying for that appeal extension now, based on the above? Or just go for a killer WS?

 

Thanks in advance!

 

PS posts on my threads no longer seem to come through as notification on my email account. has something changed that I shuold know about?

[pt2537]

you have filed your appellants notice?

[Martel]

Sorry PT, it's late and I'm fighting a losing battle with my files.

 

I filed an appeal against the DJ's refusal of permission to appeal.

 

While I was away, the court sent me an Order, giving me permission to appeal extended by 10 days of the date of the notice.

 

I arrived home the day AFTER the deadline (which, judging from my experience with this chaotic court, probably gave me about 3 days to reply), called the court and was advised to write to the DJ asking for an extension. Never heard back, so resent Special Delivery and never heard back.

 

does that answer the question?

 

sorry for the delay - for some reason I'm not receiving email notifications of postings on my thread

 

thanks for your help.

[Martel]

Gallahad has very kindly posted the following on my other thread 'Another court hearing.....'

 

 

Re: Another Court Hearing 14/06/10 Skipton/Amberloan/Cabot/Morgan's V Me!

here it is

 

Charging order The myth

I feel that this is so important that I thought a new thread should be made to highlight the importance of understanding the law on Charging Orders and how many people are stuck with their property in the false believe that they have had a Charging Order put on their property.

 

In particular the thousands of Northern Rock customers that have had unsecured debt turned into secured debt by their tactics.

 

If your property is jointly owned a creditor will not be able to obtain a CO against you, they can only get what is called a restriction.

 

The laws on Restrictions are totally different to Orders, the most important being there is NO OBLIGATION for you to pay any of the proceeds of the sale to the creditor.

 

However, during the whole court process you go through the reference from all parties (especially the creditor) will be to charging order and NOT to restriction. This is done in order to decieve you believing you are stuck with a CO.

 

However, not all solicitors are aware of the law in this regard and it is important that you raise this point with them in the first instance before proceeding with them

 

Quote:

 

Restriction

 

 

The restriction which can be entered on the register where a charging order is made against one of joint proprietors is in the following form :-

No disposition of the registered estate is to be registered without a certificate signed by the applicant for registration or his conveyancer that written notice of the disposition was given to [name of person with the benefit of the charging order] at [address for service], being the person with the benefit of [an interim] [a final] charging order on the beneficial interest of (name of judgment debtor) made by the (name of court) on (date) (Court reference.…).

You are therefore correct in saying that when the Land Registry receives an application to register, for example a transfer, we will not ask to see the consent of the person who has the benefit of the charging order. We will only want a certificate from the applicant for registration or his conveyancer that the person who has the benefit of the charging order has been given written notice of the transfer.

 

If both joint owners sell the land to a third party the restriction will be cancelled when the transfer to the purchasers is registered.

 

 

So I hope I have provided benefit to everyone who has had a restriction entered against them (especially NORTHERN ROCK CUSTOMERS) who believe wrongly that they are Charging Orders.

 

You now have the freedom to go and sell your houses with the knowledge that the vultures can do nothing

 

I also think this VERY IMPORTANT point needs highlighting by the moderators as many many people are stuck with houses that they believe they cannot sell

[Martel]

Gallahad's post is a great read - so thank you Gallahad!!

 

I own the Freehold with my neighbours.

 

We all rec'd a letter from Morgan sols saying ' a copy of the INTERIM CHARGING ORDER is hereby served upon you'. and, with reference to the upcoming hearing 'The hearing to show cause why a CHARGING ORDER ABSOLUTE shall not be made will be held ......'

 

They enclose a doc from the court titled 'INTERIM CHARGING ORDER' and their application for such.

 

Today I (and my neighbours) receive this from the LR:

 

B136(CO) Notice of an application to register a restriction against the land ......

"As a result of the application the following entry is being made:

RESTRICTION: No disposition of the registered estate other than a disposition by the proprietor of any registered charge registered before the entry of this restriction, is to be registered without a certificate signed by the application for registration or their conveyancer that written notice of the disposition was given to Cabot, etc, being the person with the benefit of an interim charging order on the beneficial interest of Martel....

Brief summary of applicant's interest in the making of the entry of the restriction:

blah blah, the applicant states that the Court has made a charging order against this property in case XXXX.

Where the court has made a charging order the person with the benefit of it is entitled to protect that interest with an entry in the register of the type now applied for....

There are very few circumstance in which someone would be able successfully to object to such an application

For instance, an objection on the following basis would not prevent completion of an application:

- you are already negotiating how to pay the money

- you do not agree with the order or that you owe money to the applicant. you ma be able to appyl to the court to cancel the order but it is still valid.

 

If the court order is made against a person who owns the property with you and you personally then the above still applies. The court order only affects the interest in the property of that person but the applicant may still make this application.

 

It is important to note that the restriction applied for will not prevent you dealing with the property as long as its terms are complied with.

 

 

 

The language is different from Gallahad's......can anyone help me translate???

 

Many thanks!!!

[Rhia]

This is all can come up with Martel and it is along the lines of the LR notice above.

 

http://www.diyconveyance.co.uk/notices-restrictions-registered-against-land.html

[Rhia]

This is on the LR website http://www1.landregistry.gov.uk/assets/library/documents/educ_fact_5_131205.pdf

 

but the info Gallahad has posted is from a thread on MSE which gives a different take on it as follows. http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=1839539

 

What it appears to mean is this. Joint ownership, joint debt - full Charging Order and can't sell without repaying the debt

 

Joint ownership, single debt - they can only place a restriction. If you decided to move they would have to get wind of it and apply to the court for you to repay - there is no automatic onbligation to repay.

 

In other words you can let them go ahead, run up costs and generally cost them a lot of time, stress and money and they still won't have the debt repaid. If you decide to sell up make sure your solicitor's onto it as they should be working n your interest and with a bit of luck you could be sold before they ever know. If there's no equity in the property then it's tough luck.

 

Furthermore they can't make you bankrupt. I am not sure how your neighbours stand in all this but if they have to take advice I suggest a large bill for costs.

 

I would check this all out but it does seem all this CO nonsense is just hot air and it's very interesting.

[gh2008]

Martel - your situation is different as you are unlikely to all sell at the same time.

 

You need to get proper legal advice - trawl local solicitors and find the ones that give 30mins free - go to the CAB - talk to NationalDebtLine & Insolvency helpline all will have the relevant info.

 

For couples with COs then if you trawl the forums 'from the other side' i.e. from people owed money getting COs then you will get the info you require

 

jmho

[Gallahad]

It would seem to me that Rhias assessment is the closest we can come to on this shabby cabot mess. I know you do not want to be in a sit and wait position on the issues but unless one of the caggers with a depth of knowledge on court procedures (PT maybe) can offer another solution you may have no other alternative at this late stage. I am sure that some intervention, after legal advice, by your neighbours would stop cabot in their tracks,

[Rhia]

I agree with both the above in that you need some good legal advice Martel but suspect, as Galahad does, they have blundered by including your neighbours and they could be the key to getting this removed.

 

Does this help? http://www.gillhams.com/dictionary/548.cfm

 

or this looking from the other side as gh suggests http://www.onlinerecoveries.com/news-item-best-practice-COs.asp

 

http://www.beatmydebt.com/news-articles/I-am-at-risk-of-getting-a-charging-order-against-my-house-how-can-I-stop-this.htm

 

http://www.dwf.co.uk/files/Publication/3c92c6f3-376d-497c-ae8a-cfda39c09b08/Presentation/PublicationAttachment/63793d09-d52f-4cd1-ac5c-d12da3b71e9f/BR%20-%20Insight%208%20-%20Charging%20Orders.pdf

Edited October 13, 2010 by Rhia
add links

[Martel]

Rhia, gh and Gallahad -

 

Many thanks for your considered posts. I will do a bit more legal digging and see what I come up with.....

 

What I don't understand is why they don't put a restriction/order on my flat alone (others have taken second charges this way).

 

again, many thanks for the valuable input.....will keep reserching

 

Martel

[Rhia]

This might be useful starting with Citizens Advice Bureau - they may well have a legal advisor or duty solicitor who will give free advice

http://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/index/pressoffice/press_index/press_20090625.htm

 

Then there's the OFT

http://www.oft.gov.uk/about-the-oft/legal-powers/legal/cca/orders

 

And it's gone before Parliament

http://www.parliament.uk/briefingpapers/commons/lib/research/briefings/snha-05248.pdf

[Martel]

Rhia, thank you so much.

 

will begin my research soonest,

MX

[Martel]

Rhia, thank you so much.

 

will begin my research soonest,

MX

[CarhleJon]

You might also want to take a look at "practice guide 19" from the land registry. I would post a link if I could!!!

[Martel]

thanks, CarhleJon, for your post. will check it out first thing tomorrow.

 

sorry for the delay in responding, but, for some reason, i know longer get email alerts for new posts on my thread.....can't figure out why.

 

thanks again!!

[Martel]

I have a hearing is next week about a charging order. I've returned the form to the Land Registry, saying I want to defend it and pointing out they're misquoted the interim charging order number.

 

Is is a Witness Statement or a Defence I need to file with the court. I know I don't have a lot of time, but I have been dealing with THREE other potentially disastrous cases and had to prioritise.

 

Here are the facts -

 

I lost a case (well, two cases, but so far no charging order from that) to Cabot this summer and the DJ declined permission to appeal. So, asked for an N460 and requested an appeal. While I was away for one week this summer, I rec'd an order stating time to seek permission to appeal would be extended for one week (whilst I was away). I called the court and was advised to write to the DJ and explain what happened and asking for an extension. I did. No reply. I resent the letter, Special Delivery and, again, no reply.

 

Next I hear is the interim charging order.

 

The freehold they have put the interim charging order on has no intrinsic value and my flat is in negative equity.

 

Is there any point in fighting this order and mentioning all of the above? If so, how? With an N244 and Witness Statement or with a Defence?

 

I'd be so grateful for any advice - have to make a move on this by tomorrow

MXX.

 

And, for what it's worth, this is from the OFT website this week:

Charging orders

 

The OFT has a duty to protect the interests of consumers by ensuring the fitness of those holding or applying for consumer credit licences. The OFT also has a duty to monitor social and commercial developments relating to the provision of credit and related activities. The OFT has monitored the use of 'charging orders' as a method of enforcing judgment debts, where the debts originally arose under regulated consumer credit agreements.

 

What is a charging order?

 

A charging order is one of a number of enforcement methods available to creditors to ensure that judgment debts are satisfied. A charging order can only be applied for where a court judgment has already determined that a debtor owes money to the creditor, and payment under that judgment is not forthcoming. The original debt may have arisen under a consumer credit agreement. However, charging orders can also be used to enforce the payment of monies after a judgment in other types of action.

 

Once a charging order is obtained a 'charge' can be placed on the asset specified in the order. This will usually be the debtor's property. When the debtor decides to sell the property the amount due is repaid out of the proceeds. Charging orders do not require debtors to sell their property. However, the creditor can make a further application to the court requesting that an order should be granted to enable the property to be sold sooner to repay the debt. This is called an 'order for sale'. It appears that this currently happens in a very small proportion of cases.

 

22 November 2010 update

 

OFT acts on concerns about charging orders

 

The OFT announced that it had imposed requirements on Alliance and Leicester Personal Finance Limited, American Express Services Europe Limited, HFC Bank Limited (part of the HSBC Group) and Welcome Financial Services Limited (part of Cattles plc) to address concerns about the way some consumer debts are enforced.

 

Problems uncovered by the OFT's investigation were specific to each business, as set out in the individual requirements, but across the sector they include a failure to consider the customer's circumstances or proportionality before asking the court to put a charging order in place; not building adequate checks into the lender's decision-making process; and also applying substantial charges for referring cases to a debt collection agency. In a minority of cases, lenders sent oppressive and/or misleading correspondence.

 

The four companies subject to this announcement have co-operated fully with the OFT during the investigation and have each made changes to address the specific problems identified within their business, as set out in the requirements. The OFT is working to ensure that the whole banking industry uses charging orders and other debt enforcement tools responsibly.

 

Further details of the requirements can be found in press release 119/10 - OFT acts on concerns about charging orders.

[Martel]

sorry to bump so soon but am a little desperate MXX

[Martel]

In case anyone is interested, here are the OFT's requirements for the four companies it admonished:\ALPF-equirements.pdf

Welcome-requirements.pdf

HFC-requirements.pdf

Amex-requirements.pdf

[CarhleJon]

Hi M - just wondering what happened on this - did you get them to remove the charge from your neighbours?

[Martel]

Hi - no, I went to court and explained the mess re my appeal. DJ didn't care. Told me to take up with the court (not helpful). Didn't care about the recent OFT rulings on COs.

 

Approved the CO in seconds.

 

A nightmare.