Possibly leaving Vodafone using PAC and disputing Early Termination Charges

[essex_chris]

This is a new thread started to continue my earlier post at http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/telecoms-mobile-fixed-internet/259070-vodafone-change-unlimited-data.html#post2931649

 

I'll copy that post over to here rather than rewrite - i will say from the onset that i would simply like to continue with Vodafone as a customer and hope that the issues with Vodafone & Customer Service are simply a blip on an otherwise good history.

 

I found this site after googling "disputing early termination charges on mobile contract". I have just registered and hoped to start a new thread but this one seems appropriate to seek advice.

 

Apologies for the length of post, i suspect this is common on a forum like this.

 

I will copy some of a recent post of mine as it is a fair summary of my views (hope this is appropriate for this site)

 

Quote:

I still hope (but barely) that Vodafone will see the error of their ways.

 

Vodafone should;

 

1.) ...only apply this 500mb hard limit to new contracts agreed on or after June 1st.

 

2.) ...continue to apply a 500Mb soft limit to existing customers, and in my opinion any new ones between now and June 1st unless the sales advice categorically states the full details and makes the customer aware, whether they ask or not.

 

3.) ...decide upon a sensible hard limit in line with realistic use of Mobile Internet with smartphones. 1Gb might not be seen as enough to many but would be a sensible compromise. use above 1Gb should be contacted and presented with sensibly priced options (£5 per 500Mb is actually quite reasonable IMHO).

 

4.) Enforce any new limit after making clear to customers both prospective through advertising/website, and existing customers by text/email/post that say two successive months of use over the hard limit would be chargeable at published rates.

 

This would represent a fair system which would be roughly in line with how policies have been sold for some time, allow for cost implications to the customer who uses data siginificantly above the average amount, and should remove the ability of a difficult customer to simply abuse the service by using gigabytes of data for 2-3months and then curtail their use for 1month to bring themselves back out of any charging zone.

 

I have my suspicions that Vodafone are using the classic tactic of scaremongering about very tough rules and enforcement of them, only to relax them a little and the vast majority of people breathe a sigh of relief, whilst still being charged more than they used to be.

 

I hope to be proved wrong.

 

When a company mistakenly advertises something and people try desperately to use the letter of the law to force that company to sell an item it's not fair on the seller and the customer should be ashamed.

 

When a company repeatedly advertises something and advises prospective customers to stay with them or to join, only to try to not provide what was promised it is not fair on the customer and the seller should be ashamed.

 

Both sides at times try to hide behind terms and conditions, confusing statements which do not specifically deal with the problem, or use the benfit of the doubt for nefarious purposes.

 

Vodafone bosses should be ashamed of this whole debacle"

 

What do you think?

Myself i have had a number of account problems with Vodafone in recent times - i am a 99% satisfied customer, although at times it seems a bit of work to get there, usually things are dealt with once Vodafone are pressed in my experience. I have been a customer with more than one tariff at a time since 2003.

 

I have been contacted by a representative of 'Vodafone Directors Office" after emailing both the webteam and copying that email to a well known high up Vodafone email address. I had tried 191 but with absolutely no luck other than an final offer of a £20 credit to my account, for over £50 of costs to myself which were Vodafones responsibility.

 

The person i dealt with was Amanda and was very helpful and largely very good at answering questions and dealing with specific queries.

 

I renewed a contract with Vodafone on the 22nd of January - this was for £35 a month, with a 50% retentions discount, for 600mins / 3000texts / 500Mb Mobile Internet with Fair Use Policy, and was given a free HTC Magic.

 

Since then i have actually been billed for a £40 tariff with discount - though i was only aware that the bills were higher than expected. Multiple calls to 191 informed me that this would level out due to changing tariff, date of payment etc. at no point was the £40 tariff mentioned.

 

I also paid £9.99 for Saturday delivery for the handset, and although it was delivered the box contents were incomplete - it lacked a memory card so certain major functions of the handset were unavailable to me.

 

After arranging for a 4gb micro sd card to be posted to me, i was told i would be credited the saturday delivery charge.

 

Until a few days ago this had not happened - given the new of the mobile internet warning texts i decided to contact Vodafone so was pleased when i got a call from Amanda representing the Vodafone Directors Office.

 

After a lenghthy explanation, discussing the details of the sale and the contract it was agreed that a credit to my account for the costs to me, and future credits each month to my bill of £2.50 would be applied to put my bills in line with the £17.50 standard price it should be. I am satisfied with this, but i post it as it gives some history to admitted mistakes on Vodafones part.

 

We also discussed the news of warning texts and the mobile internet limit, and i was told i would receive a letter with the details on Vodafones official position, as i was told that the eForum and 191 statements would not be official - what i was to receive would be.

 

A day later i received a call to apologise that i was told i would receive a letter, but that i would get an email instead. This is fine - anything official from Vodafone in writing would satisfy me.

 

When this email arrived it was a snipped version of many posts on the eForum, so somewhat disappointed i wrote back asking for clarification on a few things, and in return was sent back a more comprehensive announcement from May 11th which can be seen posted elsewhere. Not that i was sent a statement on the 12th but it was not Vodafones announcement from the 11th.

 

At this point in time i am informed that were i to request a PAC code at this time, my early termination charge would be in the region of ~£490.

 

My issue with my contract is that i was specifically informed multiple times by Vodafone staff on 191, the sales line who called me after i requested and received a PAC code in January, and from reading the Vodafone eForum that the Fair use Policy meant that 500mb was a 'soft' limit, and that it was intended to give Vodafone the means to restrict or charge users who tethered, streamed video, used P2P download services, and were excessive users of data. This was clarified upon being asked as 'gigabytes' of data, other specific comments from Vodafone staff verbally were that users going 50% over and using 750Mb, or double the limit and using 1000mb were fine as it is the tiny minority of multiple gigabyte users that Vodafone would target and charge.

 

I have now learned for certaint that should i use in excess of 500Mb each month more than once than i will be eligible to be charged.

 

To me this is a clear difference from what i was specifically sold. I have attempted to seek clarification from Vodafone but i get recent statements about 3% of users, or 'a period of time' parroted back to me.

 

I fully understand the need to charge users who abuse the Mobile Internet service, and should i sign up to a new contract with Vodafone i will happily pay £5 a month for each extra 500Mb data allowance, but this is categorically not what i was sold.

 

I am under the impression that whilst Vodafone can apply early termination charges to my account should i use the PAC code i may request, but i want to confirm the potential repercussions should i decide to dispute them.

 

Any assistance would be much appreciated.

 

Apologies again for the long post

 

Chris.

[essex_chris]

Just a quick BUMP hoping that this may get some replies.

 

I don't think Lee_Vodafone has been active since before i posted it so hopefully he'll see it and the PM i sent when he next logs in.

 

A PM was what was meant when it was said to email him right?

[essex_chris]

I have now been contacted by Lee_Vodafone which is a positive step at this point.

 

Hi Chris,

 

Thanks for your PM.

 

While I'm not able to deal with any specific cases in relation to this topic I'd recommend taking another look at the announcement on the eForum here where we've answered some additional questions posed by our customers.

 

Thanks,

 

Lee

 

I have replied, and hope to hear back. Right now i am no further forward than from previous enquiries.

[Lee Vodafone Company Rep]

Hi essex_chris,

 

Thanks for updating the thread - I was just in the process of doing this when I saw your post.

 

I've just replied to your other PM.

 

Thanks,

 

Lee

 

Web Relations Team

 

Vodafone UK

[essex_chris]

No problem. I will go and read it now.

[essex_chris]

Sadly it seems that the situation isn't really any better for the customer after a month of back and forth.

 

Mobile Internet - Will The 500Mb Allowance Be Enough For Internet Usage? - Vodafone eForum

 

Vodafone have now locked the topic, updated their statement here;

 

Vodafone eForum -> Updated 10/06/2010: Mobile Internet Charging

 

So many conflicting comments and now with a final update to the announcement Vodafone have locked the door to any more public discussion on their site.

 

These things do happen, and if it was nothing but customers foaming at the mouth and lots of chinese whispers it would be understandable. There are entirely valid queries being made and all Vodafone can do is lock the discussion.

 

Get a text message telling you that you've used more than 25mb a day when you are on a 500mb a month deal - can't talk about it. Even when you've tried speaking to 191 and they fob you off.

 

For some it's a mistake, for others they are having it confirmed by 191.

 

It's an utter fiasco.

 

I've had a thread asking about the dispute procedure for early termination charges shut down - i'm simply trying to find out what my rights are and Vodafone do not want that either.

 

Shame on you Vodafone. This is being poorly handled. Your paying customers deserve better.

[buzby]

However customers are voting with their feet - it won't be for the first time a network realises a stupid marketing decision works against them in the marketplace, and only this will focus their minds to restore the status quo,

[essex_chris]

The new hard limits may put people off joining Vodafone, for me it's the treatment as an existing customer that is just not good enough. Any attempt to establish my rights as a customer gets me nowhere.

 

I've had a missed call now from Lee who i think may be the same person who posts here from Vodafone, but it's certainly the Lee i have been dealing with in lieu of Tom Rushton head of the Webteam.

 

Two answerphone messages now since i have been on the phone a lot of that time, where i am now it's a ropey signal so hopefully i will receive the call here.

[essex_chris]

I've just come off the phone with Lee from Vodafone, and whilst we obviously don't see eye to eye on certain aspects of all of this i can understand where he is coming from. Sods law i am watching a 10month old who jealously guards my attention and was doing so when i got the call - as at times i was more involved with talking to Lee than passing his toys let's just say he vocalised his disaproval !

 

I don't really think that it's acceptable to make significant changes to a product, and try and use the excuse that only 3% of customers might be affected. I can count myself in those 97% of customers who haven't been breaking the 500mb limit on my tariff for the first 4-5months of my contract, but i can tell you that i want to know about it when the change is made.

 

I don't accept that the various statements about it have been satisfactory, and feel very misled by Vodafone over the whole affair. I think i have decent reasons to react that way too.

 

I'm having to wait and see if my billing enquiries are resolved (i think they are now, as even 191 staff quote the correct amount of discount to me now), and once that is confirmed towards the end of this month i will then be contacted to be informed of any 'goodwill' gesture.

 

I'll also be waiting to see if any charges may or may not be applied against my account for any mobile internet use above 500mb.

 

I think it is a tremendouly poor show that all statements in regard to this matter make it quite clear that use over 500mb is considered excessive, and this repeated 'excessive' use will be chargeable. This is not as the products were sold, and not as has been advised in general. It's all well and good to say that this is about dealing with the small % of the 3% of customers who do go over their limit, but it clearly affects many more. Why say that all use over 500mb is excessive and excessive use will be charged if this isn't the case?

 

This is not a case of badly trained sales staff accidentally misinforming customers, or 191 staff giving out incorrect information - it's at all levels of Vodafone. Mention of things like "commercial reasons" or talk about no change of charges or no change of Terms & Conditions is almost meaningless without clear public comment on the matter.

 

I'm afraid that i have very little faith in Vodafone now, as when it comes down to it instead of being honest and open about the whole situation they've been anything but.

 

If it's a policy change then make it public and keep on message about it. If charges should have been applied before then simply say so and start applying charges - but bear in mind that you have to deal appropriately with customers who were sold a Vodafone contract based upon not having those charges. That's pulling the rug out from under people.

 

Closing the eForum thread does little more than prevent customers talking to each other - if nothing more the last month has shown that customers have done a better job of keeping each other informed of the goings on than Vodafone has.

 

The whole situation leaves a very bitter taste in the mouth.

[buzby]

O2 have announced the ending of 'Unlimited' Data, citing their network cannot cope, however it won;t affect existing users. Only those who are upgrading or renewing will have the 500Mb cap. (Before charges apply). I trust the term 'unlimited' will now be consigned to history?

[locutus]

O2 have announced the ending of 'Unlimited' Data, citing their network cannot cope, however it won;t affect existing users. Only those who are upgrading or renewing will have the 500Mb cap. (Before charges apply). I trust the term 'unlimited' will now be consigned to history?

I NEVER thought I'd have to say this but... I think you're being too trusting buzby

 

How T-Mobile have got around this is they slow your internet connection down to dial-up speeds if you exceed their FUP, so you can still use it but it will be painfully slow! That is known by "Throttling" on landlines and I expect it will be a new fashion trend with the mobile companies .

[essex_chris]

In regards to T-Mobile, don't they have a 3000mb per month fair use limit, over which they do not charge you only throttle your connection?

 

In no case should Unlimited* be considered acceptable - those amongst us who are more savvy and either know what the * means or think to ask will know what it really means, but it's intentionally misleading and should be stopped.

 

Limits are fine and to be expected, and to be honest a charge of 1p per megabyte (in 500mb lumps) for mobile internet currently is actually quite fair. It's just not fair if you sold the contract differently.

 

Do you think it would be acceptable to claim 150mpg on a cars fuel performance but only get 30 - the claims that are made in that exaxmple are rigorously test and proven using industry standards. Whilst there might be some debate about how real they are it's at least being properly addressed.

 

If ISPs and Mobile Telcos need to look at data bandwidth and address it fairly then they need to look at how they sell their products first, and secondly worry about the costs. This is not a case of an unforeseen issue having come about and both sides having to be realistic about it - Vodafone have been selling a product by effectively lying to customers, and they now have to face up to it.

[Yoshiro]

My o2 which has just been renewed is unlimited internet use! But then for some reason they put me on a business tarrif??? lol

[essex_chris]

Could anybody comment on this - the Terms & Conditions state that;

 

11. Ending this agreement

a) Either you or us may end this agreement by giving the other 30 days’ notice in writing. Your notice must include your mobile number and the signature or appropriate security details of the account holder. You must pay the charges during the notice period.

b) You may end this agreement by writing to us if:

 

• we don’t do something fundamental that we should have done under this agreement (for example, if there is a complete failure of the network for 7 days in a row due to something we have done), within 7 days of you asking us in writing;
  
• we tell you that there will be an increase in the line-rental charge by more than the increase in the retail price index (worked out as a percentage) since the last line-rental increase and you write to us before the increase applies;
  
• we increase your charges in the UK which have the effect of increasing your total charges (based on your usage in the previous month) by more than 10% and you write to us before the increase applies; or
  
• we change this agreement to your significant disadvantage including changing or withdrawing services (we will tell you if this is the case) and you write to us within one month of us telling you about the change. This does not apply if the change or withdrawal relates to services which you can cancel without us ending this agreement.
  

The part in bold clearly states that as a customer i must write to them before the increase applies.

 

I have been told the following by email;

 

I'm aware that XXX did discuss certain aspects of how FUP would be operated but also said that we wouldn't be able to disclose this in writing; however, in order to reassure you further you asked if you'd be charged for using 900MB per month would you be charged for the additional data. In answer to this I said that it was highly unlikely. While I cannot categorically guarantee this I have previously confirmed that should any additional charge for data increase your bill by 10% or more then you'll be able to leave us without having to pay a cancellation fee.

According to this link (current statement, though it has changed many times)

 

Vodafone eForum -> Updated 10/06/2010: Mobile Internet Charging

 

Can I terminate my agreement because you have changed your charges?

 

Your contract allows you to terminate if the changes to our charges means you have suffer an increase in your total call and usage charges by more than 10%. This will be compared to your previous month’s usage. However you will only be entitled to terminate once we have introduced those charges – this will not happen unless or until you have continued to exceed your data allowance and we have notified you that we intend to charge you.

 

You will need to send us written notification that you intend to terminate your contract and this must be sent to us before the charges are introduced (we will give you at least 14 days notice).

 

I'm confused as to how i can be charged without charges being introduced. My bills are line rental in advance, but out of bundle charges in arrears. So if i am notified for charges then those charges will apply to the previous month? According to the T&Cs i need to write to them before the increase applies, but i am not sure how i can do this if i am paying for it in arrears?

 

If i have made a schoolboy error here please let me know.

 

Cheers in advance

[Human Writes]

 

I'm confused as to how i can be charged without charges being introduced. My bills are line rental in advance, but out of bundle charges in arrears. So if i am notified for charges then those charges will apply to the previous month? According to the T&Cs i need to write to them before the increase applies, but i am not sure how i can do this if i am paying for it in arrears?

 

If they have charged you without notifying you then they are probably in breach of contract.

 

Usually you are notified first by one of the methods specified in the contract, then the changes are introduced after the notice period ends.

 

Have you received any form of notice?

[essex_chris]

So when i am notified i then have to write in?

 

Do you think that i will have to pay the charges for that month? As i have to give 30days notice if i continue to use my mobile for that 30 days and use 501mb+ then i'll be paying two lots of charges, one for the 30days in arrears when i am notified, and then for the 30days notice period.

 

I'm expecting another email from Vodafone, and then i might ask this to get them on the record with their comments about how it will apply in regards to the T&Cs

 

I'm totally open to the idea that i'm misinterpreting all this but then i want a response on the record and i want it to be checked before sending it to me - i've had too many "oh that was a mistake" and "you shouldn't have been told that it was human error".

[Lee Vodafone Company Rep]

Hi essex_chris,

 

Thanks for updating the thread following our conversation yesterday.

 

Just to let you that I have got you most email from this morning and I'll get back to you as soon as I can to clear up the queries you've posed.

 

Kind regards,

 

Lee

 

Web Relations Team

 

Vodafone UK

[essex_chris]

That's great thanks for posting here too.

 

Customers obviously just want clarification on things and to be treated fairly. There is a lot of unhappyness surrounding what appear to be measures to deal with 'excessive' use that are tarring everyone with the same brush and actually making it easier for people who are the tiny minority affecting all customers to get away from Vodafone with no penalty.

 

Somewhat of a sledgehammer to crack a nut approach and appears to be unfair given what has been sold.

 

Look forward to hearing from you.

[essex_chris]

Lee has today come back to me about all of this;

 

Hi Chris,

 

Further to my post on CAG Forum on Friday 11th June 2010.

 

Customers who've received several alerts asking them to moderate their usage without having done so will be contacted by phone to discuss moving to an alternative bundle. Should they decide not to move to a different bundle then at this point they'll be given fourteen days that they'll be charged for the additional data used.

 

The charges will commence fourteen days after we've notified the customer and should they decide not to accept them they will have fourteen days in which to write to us notifying us that they they don't accept the charges and request the cancellation of their account should the charges increase their next bill by 10% or more.

 

Although I'm not 100% sure what question three is asking I can clarify that should you be charged at the rates stated on the eForum for additional data then this will increase your bill by more than 10% and as such you'll be able to write to us requesting cancellation within fourteen days from the date we informed you.

 

I hope this clears things up for you.

 

Kind regards,

 

Lee

 

Web Relations Team

 

Vodafone UK

 

Sad to say that it's clear that i'll be contacted in the near future. I've received my first text telling me that i've gone over my limit this month, i won't be changing to a different bundle, andi will be writing to cancel once i am informed of the charges.

 

Personally i think this is a mistake for Vodafone. Certainly in my case i would think it's going to cost them more by letting me go than it would by letting me stay and not charging me for using the data the contract was sold on.

 

I would think that on balance Vodafone is just betting that most customers who might be affected will either just pay, or will switch to a different tariff.

 

I fully understand the need to monitor and control bandwidth, but can't help but think that there is an element of Vodafone "cutting off it's nose to spite its face!"

[Lee Vodafone Company Rep]

Hi essex_chris,

 

As this moment in time it'll be a case of waiting and seeing exactly what happens and then taking things from there.

 

Lets watch this space.

 

Thanks,

 

Lee

 

Web Relations Team

 

Vodafone UK

[essex_chris]

If excessive use continues though isn't it a foregone conclusion?

 

The level of use defined as excessive is set. The charges are set. Continued excessive use will be chargeable. Charges that would push your bill to a larger than 10% raise make that customer eligible to cancel without penalty.

 

I understand that if my use doesn't fall into the excessive category then things will continue as they have done before - but that isn't really what this is all about.

[Lee Vodafone Company Rep]

Hi essex_chris,

 

I'm afraid there's not really anything else I can add here.

 

As I said yesterday, it be a case now of waiting and seeing what happens.

 

Thanks,

 

Lee

 

Web Relations Team

 

Vodafone UK

[essex_chris]

I just can't help but think that Vodafone could have handled the matter better. Of course i will wait and see, but the information publicly available is pretty clear that you're going to charge me, so why not just let us get on with leaving? Or be upfront about the realities of this situation and offer upgrades, or do something to retain custom.

 

This is the fingers in ears "lalala not listening" school of customer service.

 

I can't imagine that it'll be used when training staff on the right way of dealing with things!

[mrpavers]

I got my text telling that I had exceeded my limit, is it a case of waiting for vodafone to charge me and then leave under the 10% rule?

[essex_chris]

I hope that this is relevant to you mrpavers;

 

Customers who've received several alerts asking them to moderate their usage without having done so will be contacted by phone to discuss moving to an alternative bundle. Should they decide not to move to a different bundle then at this point they'll be given fourteen days that they'll be charged for the additional data used.

The charges will commence fourteen days after we've notified the customer and should they decide not to accept them they will have fourteen days in which to write to us notifying us that they they don't accept the charges and request the cancellation of their account should the charges increase their next bill by 10% or more.

 

So first of all - you will not be charged without notice. Effectively this means that you can use Mobile Internet with impunity. You will not be charged for any excess use as there are no charges at this point. If you continue to use excessive data (meaning 500mb+) then you will be contacted by telephone, and you will be offered other tariffs and bundles. You do not need to accept these, and then if you stick with your existing tariff, which is your right - then you will be given 14days notice that the charges will start being applied to your account.

 

At this point you have 14 days to write to Vodafone, requesting cancellation of your account. You will be able to do this without penalty. Cancelling will give 30 days notice, but if like me you request a PAC code and you take your number elsewhere your account with Vodafone will end once the number tranfers to another provider. You will be billed for your line rental up to this day of cancellation.

 

I'm sure if i have made any mistakes here they will be corrected - they are not intentional.

 

Hope that helps.