Illegal U-Turn PCN please help!

[jennypopper]

Hi guys, I'm new here.

 

I didn't even know U-turns were illegal but I got a PCN for it. Some camera operator watching live footage caught me apparantly!

 

It was done on Bounds Green Road. I turned left out of Whittington Road (as its left only). Then did a U turn around where bounds green road meets Clarence Road.

 

The Google maps is a little out of date but any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

Jenny

[sb118]

Got any photos of the signage on the junction?

[jennypopper]

No signs...

 

Theres like a pavement divider in the middle of the road and at the end point is where I did the U Turn.

 

No signs saying no u turn though and I've seen many cars doing it

[crem]

There should be signs

[jennypopper]

If someone could take a look on google maps I would really appreciate it!

 

Maybe the road markings? I really have no idea!

[sb118]

You said the google map was out of date, we need current pics of the junction and any signage.

[jennypopper]

It isnt a junction. Its literally a U turn in the middle of the road.

 

Basically, I would want to right onto Bounds Green Road but it is left turn only and there is a pavement running down the middle of the road so it isn't possible to turn right. So I'm going down Bounds Green Road in the wrong direction, with a small pavement on my right separating me from the opposite direction traffic. This pavement after about 100 feet ends and thats where I do the U turn. no junction, just in the middle of the road.

 

The current google maps image is the same minus the pavement in the middle (so a right turn was once possible) This pavement is replaced with the double white lines which in essence create an island anyway.

 

Hope this description helps a little!

[sailor sam]

Good job there appears to be only onw Bounds green Road in the UK as you didn't indicate where it is!

 

Anyway, I managed to take a look on Street view and can make the following observations;

 

I cannot see where it indicates that you can only turn left out of Whittington Road. Also, I cannot see any signage stating that making a 'U'-turn at the junction with Clarence Road.

 

Can you post the PCN after deleting any persoanl details?

 

__________________

Please Note

 

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[sailor sam]

It isnt a junction. Its literally a U turn in the middle of the road.

 

Basically, I would want to right onto Bounds Green Road but it is left turn only and there is a pavement running down the middle of the road so it isn't possible to turn right. So I'm going down Bounds Green Road in the wrong direction, with a small pavement on my right separating me from the opposite direction traffic. This pavement after about 100 feet ends and thats where I do the U turn. no junction, just in the middle of the road.

 

The current google maps image is the same minus the pavement in the middle (so a right turn was once possible) This pavement is replaced with the double white lines which in essence create an island anyway.

 

Hope this description helps a little!

 

You posted this at the same time as my previous post so you have explained why my view of the junction is now different on Street View. Ok, waht we need is for you to take pics of the approach to the junction to Clarence Road from approx 50 yards and 25 yards in addition to the PCN.

 

__________________

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my scales at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice usefull.

[jennypopper]

Penalty Charge Notice Number: XXX

Date: 30/04/2010

The council believe that a penalty charge is payable with respect to the above Vehicle for the following alleged traffic contravention: performing a prohibited turn no U turn.

In : Bound Green Road N22 at: 16:40 on: 23/04/2010

The alleged contravention was noticed by camera operator 905 who was observing real time pictures from the roadside camera at the time stated. This alleged contravention is supported by video tape evidence.

 

A penalty charge of £120 is now payable and must be paid before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of this notice. If it is paid before the end of the period of 14 days beginning with the date of this notice the amount is reduced to £60.

 

Bla Bla

 

If you believe you have a good reason not to pay the penalty charge you should write to us explaining why….

 

 

Can get photos later today but I'm sure there is no sign otherwise I wouldn't do it!

[sb118]

Get the photos!

[crem]

A U Turn isn't in itself generally illegal, that is why we are suggesting there should be signs. If the council have deemed that this action (a U Turn) would be dangerous or obstructive to perform at this location, then they must install signs to advise the motorist that this (normally allowed action) is now prohibited at this position.

[jennypopper]

I've just been back to the site and there is indeed a sign.

 

Its the standard no u turn sign with "150" written under it which I would assume means you cannot perform a U turn for that 150 yard stretch.

 

However, I am SURE this is a new sign as I do this route all of the time and have never seen it. Is there anyway of finding out when this sign was erected?

[crem]

I've just been back to the site and there is indeed a sign.

Had to be

 

Its the standard no u turn sign with "150" written under it which I would assume means you cannot perform a U turn for that 150 yard stretch.

That means no U Turn in 150 yards time, which in essence means the same as you thought

 

However, I am SURE this is a new sign as I do this route all of the time and have never seen it.

Not surprising. When we drive the same route every day we tend not to notice small changes that seem insignificant.

 

Is there anyway of finding out when this sign was erected?

Traffic and/or planning department at the council will probably have the details of installation, but I suspect it went in with the new paved area, or shortly after when they realised everyone was doing exactly what you did!

..

[jennypopper]

Its the standard no u turn sign with "150" written under it which I would assume means you cannot perform a U turn for that 150 yard stretch.

That means no U Turn in 150 yards time, which in essence means the same as you thought

 

is it IN 150 yards or FOR THE NEXT 150 yards?

 

Because I did the U turn exactly where the sign is.

[sailor sam]

We need to see pics to enable us to answer your questions! Also you can ask to see the video evidence which must show the signage. The LA must of posted a traffic order notice in the local media prior to the instalation/implementation of the restriction.

 

__________________

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my scales at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice usefull.

[jennypopper]

I didn't take pictures as I was expecting there to be no sign there! As soon as I saw the sign I thought, whats the point?

 

Its just like this one but without the word "For" and "150" instead of "350": http://www.freefoto.com/images/41/06/41_06_91---No-U-Turn-Road-Sign_web.jpg

 

I did my U turn exactly where this sign was as it was placed where the paving ended in the middle of the road.

 

Sorry if i am being useless!

[crem]

If a sign has a number underneath it, that normally implies the restriction exists at the specified distance from the sign. If they want it to mean "from this point until another point" it should include the word "for" like in your example.

 

If the sign is placed exactly at the point where the prohibition exists then no number should be shown underneath.

 

I think at the very least there may be grounds for appeal based on unclear signage.

 

I couldn't find a link to a sign like yours with a number underneath it, but on the warnings page I found there is an example of a "STOP" sign with a 100yds under it and a clear explanation that this means "STOP in 100yds time". Towards the bottom of the page is an example of "Soft Verges" with the caption stating "Soft Verges for 2 miles" which clearly means "from this point throughout the next 2 miles".

 

http://www.direct.gov.uk/prod_consum_dg/groups/dg_digitalassets/@dg/@en/documents/digitalasset/dg_070569.pdf

[sailor sam]

I agree with crem but would add such signs will normally be followed by an 'end' sign showing the limit of the restriction. From the OPs description, it would appear that the signage my be incorrect although it is impossible to say without up to date pics.

 

__________________

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my scales at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice usefull.

[shalz]

This has happened to me at the same time. Island itself has a u turn sign which i feel has only been put there recently as i've only noticed it now. Could someone correct me if I am wrong.

[jennypopper]

Hi shalz. Happened to you in the same place?

 

Sam, I will take pictures tomorrow. If I recall correctly however, there was an end sign some 150 yards after the sign. Of course, I never drive that far down the road so the sign itself is still somewhat misleading.

 

What exactly shall I take pictures of? Will post them tomorrow. Thanks again guys

[sailor sam]

Take a view from the corner of Whittington Road looking along the road toward where you did your U-turn. Then take another further down the road showing the sign you described earlier. Be sure to include the plate(s).

 

__________________

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my scales at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice usefull.

[Conniff]

Hi shalz. Happened to you in the same place?

 

Sam, I will take pictures tomorrow. If I recall correctly however, there was an end sign some 150 yards after the sign. Of course, I never drive that far down the road so the sign itself is still somewhat misleading.

 

What exactly shall I take pictures of? Will post them tomorrow. Thanks again guys

 

What you are looking for is from where you joined the road, are there any signs at all that say No U turns ie; could you have known/were instructed that there was a prohibition to making a U turn.

[jennypopper]

Ok took some pictures..

 

Will try run you through it.

 

This is the approad to the junction where I would turn left on to Bounds Green Road:

- - Free High Quality Photo Upload and Sharing

 

This is at the junction itself:

- - Free High Quality Photo Upload and Sharing

 

This is the view from the junction down Bounds green road. Where the sign is and where the U turn was performed: - - Free High Quality Photo Upload and Sharing

 

A more close up view of the sign itself, and again where I did the U turn:

Clear reverse viewu turn by Jennypopper

 

This is a view of the whole stretch. If you zoom in enough, you will see in the distance another no u turn sign with "100 yards" underneath it:

- - Free High Quality Photo Upload and Sharing

 

The very bored individuals who caught me. This is obviously still a great source of revenue for the local council:

- - Free High Quality Photo Upload and Sharing

 

A reverse view of where I did the U turn:

- - Free High Quality Photo Upload and Sharing

 

Thanks for all your help guys!

[Conniff]

It looks to me as if they have a legitimate claim. The signs says 'No U turns for 150 yards' so how can you appeal that?