PCN for Parking voucher showing wrong date but right day

[GreyArea]

On Saturday 3rd of April I was issued a PCN (code 12s) for "parking in a residents bay without clearly displaying either a permit or voucher or pay and display ticket issued for that place".

 

A visitor parking voucher for the zone was actually on display however on inspection I found I had scratched out the number 4 instead of 3 on the date section. Do I have grounds for appeal as the correct day/month/year were scratched out correctly, it was clearly a mistake on my part but only on the date?

 

(Scratched out sat 4th april 2010 but it should have been sat 3rd april 2010)

[sailor sam]

Short answer to this is no. However, You could post up the PCN (omit any personal details) to see if there is anything wrong with it.

 

__________________

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my scales at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice usefull.

[Jamberson]

If they allowed an error on just one of the scratch details, people would use the same voucher to park over and over.

 

For example, if it is scratched Saturday 4 April 2010, it could be used to park on:

 

Saturday 3 April 2010 (just the number is wrong)

Sunday 4 April 2010 (just the day is wrong)

Saturday 4 September 2010 (just the month is wrong)

Saturday 4 April 2011 (just the year is wrong)

 

... and other similar dates which may arise. So - the voucher is invalid if not totally correct.

[green_and_mean]

The wrong contravention has been used it should be 19s an invalid permit not NO permit which apart from being correct is cheaper.

[GreyArea]

Dear Green and Mean,

 

If this is correct and it has been cited on this forum, can you post a link to the relevent appeal, or if not does anybody else have information on how I can present this case for appeal to the city council

 

regards

 

Grey

[green_and_mean]

It is correct just appeal that you did have a permit on display contary to the alleged contravention on the PCN. If they reply that you did but it was invalid they will just dig themselves a hole that is impossible to get out of. Don't mention the date was wrong just tell them you had a permit and wait for their reply and we can take it from there.

[GreyArea]

heres the PCN and the voucher

Edited April 6, 2010 by GreyArea

[GreyArea]

Dear Green and mean,

 

surely they will have a photograph or CEO notes to show that a voucher was indeed on display but had been incorrectly dated. I would guess they would then issue a correctly worded PCN in replacement?

[pin1onu]

Dear Green and mean,

 

surely they will have a photograph or CEO notes to show that a voucher was indeed on display but had been incorrectly dated. I would guess they would then issue a correctly worded PCN in replacement?

They're not allowed to adjust a PCN once its issued. So as G&M says just hand them the shovel and let them dig themselves in to the hole.

[GreyArea]

I have just found this information

 

Parking - Contravention Codes 10 to 19

 

Parked in a residents or shared use parking space without clearly displaying either a permit or voucher or pay and display ticket issued for that place

 

 

Contravention Code 12 – Suffixes rstwxy

A CAN may be issued if a vehicle has nothing on display at all, which would allow it to be parked in the particular space. The ‘for that place’ part of the contravention is important so for example, handwritten notes or residents permit for a different area would be classed as nothing displayed as there would be no circumstances when what was displayed would mean that the vehicle was legally parked. Similarly, visitors vouchers or pay and display tickets used in residents only bays (where such vouchers or tickets are not permissible) would count as not having anything on display for that place.

 

and further down:

 

Parked in a residents or shared use parking place displaying an invalid permit, an invalid voucher or an invalid pay and display ticket

 

 

Contravention Code 19 – Suffixes irswxyz

A PCN may be issued where some attempt has been made to park lawfully within a bay but what is displayed in the vehicle is incorrect (e.g. the pay and display ticket has expired or the voucher has been incorrectly scratched out).

Edited April 6, 2010 by GreyArea

[Jamberson]

There may be a technicality here over whether the voucher was valid for that location, even if scratched correctly. If the sign says "Residents Permit Holders Only" and you use something else - a Visitor Permit for example, you may not be entitled to use it there.

 

A bit of research into this may be needed.

[GreyArea]

So would I be right in writing to them with an informal challenge stating that a visitor permit for the correct zone was in fact on display then wait for them to write back saying that they have disallowed the challenge as the ticket was incorrectly dated.

 

once I have received that letter do I then tell them that they've charged me under the wrong code and wait for them to reply or should I just go with that from the beginning?

[GreyArea]

In answer to Jambersons query,

 

the visitor permit shown is the one we are given for our visitors, I use the same ones every time my GF calls around, it's just on this occasion I scratched out the wrong number in the date box

[green_and_mean]

So would I be right in writing to them with an informal challenge stating that a visitor permit for the correct zone was in fact on display then wait for them to write back saying that they have disallowed the challenge as the ticket was incorrectly dated.

 

once I have received that letter do I then tell them that they've charged me under the wrong code and wait for them to reply or should I just go with that from the beginning?

 

Your first 'appeal' before you get another letter is informal but the Council must consider it, use the 'I had a permit argument' they will then most likely reject it and send you a Notice to owner. If you get a NTO then use the invalid permit 19 argument which is certain to win provided they noted down you had a permit. There is of course the outside possibility that the CEO completely missed the permit which is why you need to make the informal appeal to see what evidence they had and what you are arguing against before you show all your cards.

[lamma]

good advice from G&M. I would follow it.

[GreyArea]

Dear G&M

 

I have a photograph of the PCN under the wiper and with the visitors voucher clearly seen underneath it (with the date in the corner of the photograph) plus I have the address of a passerby who has stated he would be quite happy to write a witness letter to the effect that he saw the same.

 

Is there anything else I could do, maybe there is a template letter on the site somewhere?

 

regards

[GreyArea]

I have drafted this letter as a quick reply, I havent posted it yet as I am waiting for my witness to send me his letter so any improvements would be greatly appreciated

 

Dear Sir / Madam,

 

Please find attached a copy of PCN LV83234203 issued to a visitor who had parked outside my home in the resident’s parking bay (K zone), on 3 April at 10:38 am.

 

I wish to informally appeal this PCN on the basis that there was in fact a K Zone Parking Voucher present on the dashboard of the vehicle in a position that could be easily seen from the pavement, contrary to the alleged contravention.

 

If there is photographic evidence opposing this assertion or written notes taken by the issuing CEO at the time then I would like to be given a copy for further investigation.

 

 

I wish to be contacted at the above address with further information as to the progress of the complaint.

 

 

Blah Blah Blah....

Edited April 6, 2010 by GreyArea

[GreyArea]

Anybody else's experience using this type of defense (or similar) would be greatly appreciated.

[Jamberson]

I have a few comments on your draft letter:

 

I am waiting for my witness to send me his letter so any improvements would be greatly appreciated

 

You don't need a letter from a witness. It will just complicate things.

 

 

I wish to informally appeal this PCN on the basis that there was in fact a K Zone Parking Voucher present on the dashboard of the vehicle in a position that could be easily seen from the pavement, contrary to the alleged contravention.

 

This reads fine to me - but explain further - don't expect them to work out the rest!!

 

Tell them the alleged contravention was no voucher and that this is incorrect because you did have a voucher, but it was not scratched out correctly. The contravention is therefore not applicable in these circumstances, and the CEO should have issued a PCN for the actual contravention 19. However he did not, and so the PCN is invalid.

 

- that's what you need to tell them.

 

If there is photographic evidence opposing this assertion or written notes taken by the issuing CEO at the time then I would like to be given a copy for further investigation.

 

Don't ask for evidence in an appeal - it is a waste of time.

 

I wish to be contacted at the above address with further information as to the progress of the complaint.

 

Again, don't ask for things in an appeal. They won't contact you and send you things during the course of the appeal, or tell you supplementary info. Just spell out the grounds of your appeal, as suggested above, and await a decision.

[crem]

 

Tell them the alleged contravention was no voucher and that this is incorrect because you did have a voucher, but it was not scratched out correctly. The contravention is therefore not applicable in these circumstances, and the CEO should have issued a PCN for the actual contravention 19. However he did not, and so the PCN is invalid.

 

- that's what you need to tell them.

 

Jamberson, if you glance back through the thread, G&M advised that no further info should be offered at this stage in the appeal, simply that the contravention did not occur as the offence code was for "no voucher" when he was displaying a voucher. The fact that the voucher may have been incorrectly marked is not an issue at present as that is not what the PCN claims.

[green_and_mean]

Jamberson, if you glance back through the thread, G&M advised that no further info should be offered at this stage in the appeal, simply that the contravention did not occur as the offence code was for "no voucher" when he was displaying a voucher. The fact that the voucher may have been incorrectly marked is not an issue at present as that is not what the PCN claims.

 

Correct, at this point we do not know why the PCN was issued the OP is only guessing its because the date was wrong. Until we establish why it was issued its best to leave any other defence until the formal appeal. There seems little point in writing an appeal that admits you know you cocked up and scratched the permit incorrectly.

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

GreyArea,

 

If I understand your letter correctly, you are not the owner of the vehicle but(I am guessing here) feel responsible as you scratched off the permit details for your visitor.

 

I may suggest an alternative route. I do so because you have no statutory right to appeal. While there is nothing to stop you making representations at this stage the NTO will go to the vehicle owner. I think you need to be clearer to the LA because I suspect you want to kill this now so it doesn't get to NTO and pis$ off your visitor, so I would say something akin to the following:

 

Dear Sir / Madam,

 

Please find attached a copy of pcn LV83234203 issued in the resident’s parking bay (K zone), on 3 April at 10:38 am.

 

I wish to make representations against this PCN on the statutory ground that "the contravention did not occur". This is because there was in fact a K Zone Parking Voucher present on the dashboard of the vehicle in a position that could be easily seen from the pavement, contrary to the alleged contravention.

 

However, I have subsequently observed that there was an error on the visitors permit in that one of the details was scratched out incorrectly. This would be a contravention "19s an invalid permit" which is different and at a lower rate.

 

I am aware that the law does not allow you to reissue the PCN with the correct contravention.

 

I am also aware that the law requires you to consider these representations.

 

I wish to be contacted at the above address with further information as to the progress of these representations.

[Jamberson]

I don't see that it matters if the OP "confesses" to what really happened - no PCN was served for that particular issue, so it's a dead end.

 

It's just a matter of making it clear to the person reading the appeal letter. I think the situation can be spelled out clearly with no risk that it will cause any comeback. The point is to try and get it cancelled first time, so there's no subsequent problems with having the RK make a formal rep.

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

I don't see that it matters if the OP "confesses" to what really happened - no PCN was served for that particular issue, so it's a dead end.

 

It's just a matter of making it clear to the person reading the appeal letter. I think the situation can be spelled out clearly with no risk that it will cause any comeback. The point is to try and get it cancelled first time, so there's no subsequent problems with having the RK make a formal rep.

 

It's also a question of making the person reading the letter realise that the person who wrote it knows their stuff.

 

To do this it is in my view better to make it all crystal clear if, as I say, I have understood the situation.

 

Anyway it is all up to the OP which way they want to go!

[GreyArea]

Hello again,

 

Well I sent in an informal appeal using the following template

 

Dear Sir / Madam,

 

Please find attached a copy of PCN LV83234203 issued outside my home in the resident’s parking bay (K zone), on 3 April at 10:38 am.

 

I wish to make representations against this PCN on the statutory ground that "the contravention did not occur". This is because there was in fact a K Zone Parking Voucher present on the dashboard of the vehicle in a position that could be easily seen from the pavement, contrary to the alleged contravention.

 

If there is photographic evidence opposing this assertionor written notes taken by the issuing CEO at the time I wish to be given a copy for further investigation.

 

 

 

So I've set the ball rolling, obviously they will dismiss it out of hand and will then provide their evidence for this in an explanatory letter before giving me another 14 days to pay the £25.

 

As per G&M's logic once they tell me what they have (and if it is indeed down to a wrongly dated ticket) then I will send them a copy of the photograph of the ticket and its position on the dashboard, a witness letter to back it up and then formally appeal on the "invalid ticket" 19s defense and see what happens then.

 

I'll keep you posted