Driving in to a bus lane

[green_and_mean]

Hey thanks Green and Mean

 

Does that mean if the PCN was issued more than 28 days after the alleged offence that it is is invalid and therefore unenforceable?

 

Regards

 

Gooner

 

Yes unless they had trouble receiving the keeper details as stated in my original reply.

[gooner1961]

thanks buddy. i will certainly try and defend this for my boy now.

 

all the best

[Flossie112]

Hi - can anyone advise me?

 

I was caught last weekend driving through the same bus lane discussed above. I was approaching from the other end of Eden Street, trying to get to Shopmobility at the Eden Street Car Park. Driving up the road this way is incredibly confusing: looking at the Google Map image (sorry, don't seem to be able to include the image I can now see a small black and white sign on the left which seems to point "right for all routes" (this leads in the opposite direction to the carpark, back onto the main one way system), there are also "No left turn" signs either side of the road (the road to the Eden Street Car Park is on the left) and then there are "No Entry" signs straight ahead.

 

Looking now, the road ahead clearly is a bus lane and is marked 'No Entry' and, since I did go up it because the only way I could see to gain access to the carpark was to go up and around the mini-roundabout, I guess I haven't a leg to stand on. But the only signs for the bus lane are as it starts - the black and white sign further down only says "all routes right and by the time I got to the junction I was utterly confused and genuinely didn't notice the bus lane.

 

Presumably this just has to go down as 'Live and Learn' but it is incredibly confusingly signposted with little prior warning.

 

Could someone just confirm for me that I have to bite the bullet and pay up - and next time try and find a better route to the carpark!!

 

Thanks

[dx100uk]

Hi - can anyone advise me?

 

I was caught last weekend driving through the same bus lane discussed above. I was approaching from the other end of Eden Street, trying to get to Shopmobility at the Eden Street Car Park. Driving up the road this way is incredibly confusing: looking at the Google Map image (sorry, don't seem to be able to include the image I can now see a small black and white sign on the left which seems to point "right for all routes" (this leads in the opposite direction to the carpark, back onto the main one way system), there are also "No left turn" signs either side of the road (the road to the Eden Street Car Park is on the left) and then there are "No Entry" signs straight ahead.

 

Looking now, the road ahead clearly is a bus lane and is marked 'No Entry' and, since I did go up it because the only way I could see to gain access to the carpark was to go up and around the mini-roundabout, I guess I haven't a leg to stand on. But the only signs for the bus lane are as it starts - the black and white sign further down only says "all routes right and by the time I got to the junction I was utterly confused and genuinely didn't notice the bus lane.

 

Presumably this just has to go down as 'Live and Learn' but it is incredibly confusingly signposted with little prior warning.

 

Could someone just confirm for me that I have to bite the bullet and pay up - and next time try and find a better route to the carpark!!

 

Thanks

 

you need to start your own thread

 

dx

[green_and_mean]

Hi - can anyone advise me?

 

I was caught last weekend driving through the same bus lane discussed above. I was approaching from the other end of Eden Street, trying to get to Shopmobility at the Eden Street Car Park. Driving up the road this way is incredibly confusing: looking at the Google Map image (sorry, don't seem to be able to include the image I can now see a small black and white sign on the left which seems to point "right for all routes" (this leads in the opposite direction to the carpark, back onto the main one way system), there are also "No left turn" signs either side of the road (the road to the Eden Street Car Park is on the left) and then there are "No Entry" signs straight ahead.

 

Looking now, the road ahead clearly is a bus lane and is marked 'No Entry' and, since I did go up it because the only way I could see to gain access to the carpark was to go up and around the mini-roundabout, I guess I haven't a leg to stand on. But the only signs for the bus lane are as it starts - the black and white sign further down only says "all routes right and by the time I got to the junction I was utterly confused and genuinely didn't notice the bus lane.

 

Presumably this just has to go down as 'Live and Learn' but it is incredibly confusingly signposted with little prior warning.

 

Could someone just confirm for me that I have to bite the bullet and pay up - and next time try and find a better route to the carpark!!

 

Thanks

 

Which way did you drive? If you came from the Wilkinsons store end there is no bus lane, if you entered from the St James rd end you must have driven past the car park? If you can post up the PCN don't pay I am quite willing to assist you and it is very unlikely you will lose.

[Flossie112]

Hi - I came up from the river end and, yes I did effectively pass the carpark on my left but there are clear "no left turn" signs and also the pavement curves out with a bollard to stop you being able to turn left there - the only way I could see to get into the car park was to go up the the roundabout near the old Post Office, go a full circle and come back again. The only alternative was to go right and go back onto the one way system.

 

In fact, when I later went on the Eden Street Shopping Centre Website the directions that it gives you to get to the car park involve going further around the one way system, making a left so that you come past the NCP car park near Primark, left again to the same roundabout and then down and right into the Eden Street Car park. I effectively just missed out the middle bit!!

 

But I don't think it's unreasonable to think that you could get to the Eden Street Car Park from both ends of Eden Street - especially as there are no signs directing you from where I was back onto the one way system and around to approach the car park the way they want.

 

I guess I don't really have an argument - it IS a bus lane, albeit without much in the way of prior warning, and I DID drive up it.... my gripe is that their signage is amazingly confusing and the sign that I needed (which was how to get to the wretched car park) isn't there.

 

I'd be grateful if you could think of a way to argue the case - but don't hold out much hope for more than gnashing my teeth!

 

Thanks

[green_and_mean]

Whilst the attempt at a bus lane at that end of eden street is much better than the bit outside primark it is still signed wrong. The begining is signed as a bus gate not a bus lane and the mixture of no left turn, bus gate and no entry signs is a complete nightmare. I'll pop down there later this week and check the signage is still the same as on google maps and then draft you a letter.

[Flossie112]

Thank you so much - I really appreciate your help.

[lamma]

G&M knows his stuff, if he says its winnable then its winnable.

[green_and_mean]

Dear Sir/Madam,

I would like to appeal my PCN ref. KT#### on the grounds that there was no breach of the bus lane order.

The Kingston Council has issued the PCN using the London local authorities act 1996 to enfoce the contravention 'being in a bus lane'. The LLA 1996 describes a Bus lane as follows:

“bus lane” has the meaning given in regulation 23 of the [Part I of S.I. 1994/1519.] Traffic Signs Regulations 1994 and any regulation amending or revoking and re-enacting that regulation.

The contra flow bus lane in Eden street is not correctly signed as a Bus Lane using the TSRGD 1994 or 2003 regulations which states.

 

23. - (1) In the signs shown in the permitted variants of diagrams 877 and 878 in which the expression "bus lane" appears and in diagrams 962, 962.2, 963, 963.2, 964, 1048 and 1048.1, "bus lane" has the meaning given in paragraph (2).

 

(2) "Bus lane" in the signs referred to in paragraph (1) means a traffic lane reserved for -

 

 

• (a) motor vehicles constructed or adapted to carry more than 8 passengers (exclusive of the driver);
   
  (b) local buses not so constructed or adapted; and
   
  © pedal cycles and taxis where indicated on the sign shown in diagram 958 or 959 and pedal cycles where indicated on the sign shown in diagram 960, 962.2, 963.2 or 1048.1.
  

The Bus lane in Eden street uses the TSRGD diag. 953 sign to indicate a route provided for Buses and cycles and varied to include taxis. This sign is not included in the legal definition of a bus lane for the puroses of the LLA 1996 and should be enforced using the LLA&tfl act 2003 as a moving traffic contravention. Kingston council has no legal authority to enforce a bus and cycle route using LLA 1996 legislation.

 

I would also like to add the following:

The Traffic order for this restriction created on 10th July 2009 states that the Bus lane ends at the junction of Brook street and therefore the bus lane ends sign is missing at this point.

 

If the Council maintains that the lane continues down Eden st and does not end at Brook st then the rest of the lane is also non compliant as it does not have a solid white line in the centre of the road nor does it warn drivers that the opposite carriageway is a bus lane as there are no diag. 960 signs. The lack of both the solid white line and the 960 sign is required to prevent drivers heading towards Brook st from McDonalds doing a legal 'u' turn and driving down the bus lane, the lane is therefore un-enforceable.

 

The bus lane road markings commence in the middle of the junction (see photo) which is non compliant as they are prior to the 953 sign.

The diag 953 sign should be placed at the start of the bus lane not several metres inside it. If the sign is in fact the start of the prohibition on vehicles other than buses then the bus lane road markings are painted prior to the bus lane start point making the bus lane non compliant as all bus lanes should be marked in white on the road at the start of the lane.

The section of bus lane prior to the traffic island with the 'no entry' sign on also has no thick solid white line diag 1049 which should be 25-30cms wide.

The Dept of Transport traffic signs manual also states that contra flow bus lanes should not extend over side turnings.

 

I therefore request that the PCN is cancelled forthwith, if a rejection is issued I shall escalate to PATAS and will requests costs.

 

Edited May 19, 2010 by green_and_mean

[letshelp]

Well put together appeal G&M.

regards

[sailor sam]

In addition to G & M's very valid points, should there not be a 'buses only' sign on both sides of the road? I would say that there should be one where the 'no entry' sign is because if you were followin a bus (or other large vehicle), the view of just one sign may be obscured.

 

__________________

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my scales at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice usefull.

[green_and_mean]

In addition to G & M's very valid points, should there not be a 'buses only' sign on both sides of the road?

 

No

 

Edited May 19, 2010 by green_and_mean

[sailor sam]

Apparently it does in some cases where the bus lane is a 'bus only street' rather than sharing a carriageway with other vehicles;

 

The placing of certain signs to indicate the beginning of a restriction, requirement, prohibition or speed limit

8. - (1) This direction applies to the signs shown in diagrams 616, 617, 618, 618.1, 618.2, 618.3, 618.3A, 619, 619.1, 619.2, 620, 620.1, 622.1A, 622.4, 622.5, 622.6, 622.7, 622.8, 622.9, 625.1, 626.2A, 627.1, 629, 629A, 629.1, 629.2, 629.2A, 632, 642, 646, 663, 663.1, 665, 667, 667.1, 668, 668.1, 670, 672, 674, 951, 952, 953, 953.1, 955, 956 and 957.

 

(2) In accordance with the following provisions of this direction and the provisions of direction 9, appropriate signs to which this direction applies shall be placed to indicate the point at which a restriction, requirement, prohibition or speed limit applying to traffic on a road (in this direction and in direction 9 called "the relevant road") begins.

 

(3) Subject to paragraphs (4), (5) and (6) and to direction 9, a sign to which this direction applies shall be placed on the relevant road at or as near as practicable to the point referred to in paragraph (2) -

 

• (a) where the relevant road has only one carriageway, on each side of that carriageway; or
   
  (b) where the relevant road has more than one carriageway, on each side of each carriageway in relation to which the restriction, requirement, prohibition or speed limit begins.
  

• In accordance with Direction 8 from the TSRGD, the above signs should be on both sides of the road except where:
   
   
  (i) traffic proceeding on another road on which it is permitted to proceed only in one direction turns into the relevant road; or
   
  (ii) the carriageway of the relevant road is less than 5 metres wide and the sign is so placed that its centre is within 2 metres of the edge of the carriageway.
  It is essential that adequate advance warning is given for a bus only street to prevent motorists inadvertently entering it. More information about the signing of bus only streets and bus gates can be found on page 140 of the DfT guidancedocumentChapter 3 of the Traffic Signs Manual.
   
  The 'no entry' sign in the photo is referring to the opposite direction and the road only has one carrieageway so the bus lane is obviously non-compliant because of the signage and in relation to the road markings.
  
  

__________________

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my scales at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice usefull.

Edited May 19, 2010 by sailor sam

[green_and_mean]

Apparently it does in some cases where the bus lane is a 'bus only street' rather than sharing a carriageway with other vehicles;

 

The placing of certain signs to indicate the beginning of a restriction, requirement, prohibition or speed limit

8. - (1) This direction applies to the signs shown in diagrams 616, 617, 618, 618.1, 618.2, 618.3, 618.3A, 619, 619.1, 619.2, 620, 620.1, 622.1A, 622.4, 622.5, 622.6, 622.7, 622.8, 622.9, 625.1, 626.2A, 627.1, 629, 629A, 629.1, 629.2, 629.2A, 632, 642, 646, 663, 663.1, 665, 667, 667.1, 668, 668.1, 670, 672, 674, 951, 952, 953, 953.1, 955, 956 and 957.

 

(2) In accordance with the following provisions of this direction and the provisions of direction 9, appropriate signs to which this direction applies shall be placed to indicate the point at which a restriction, requirement, prohibition or speed limit applying to traffic on a road (in this direction and in direction 9 called "the relevant road") begins.

 

(3) Subject to paragraphs (4), (5) and (6) and to direction 9, a sign to which this direction applies shall be placed on the relevant road at or as near as practicable to the point referred to in paragraph (2) -

 

• (a) where the relevant road has only one carriageway, on each side of that carriageway; or
   
  (b) where the relevant road has more than one carriageway, on each side of each carriageway in relation to which the restriction, requirement, prohibition or speed limit begins.
  

• In accordance with Direction 8 from the TSRGD, the above signs should be on both sides of the road except where:
   
   
  (i) traffic proceeding on another road on which it is permitted to proceed only in one direction turns into the relevant road; or
   
  (ii) the carriageway of the relevant road is less than 5 metres wide and the sign is so placed that its centre is within 2 metres of the edge of the carriageway.
  It is essential that adequate advance warning is given for a bus only street to prevent motorists inadvertently entering it. More information about the signing of bus only streets and bus gates can be found on page 140 of the DfT guidancedocumentChapter 3 of the Traffic Signs Manual.
   
  The 'no entry' sign in the photo is referring to the opposite direction and the road only has one carrieageway so the bus lane is obviously non-compliant because of the signage and in relation to the road markings.
  
  

__________________

 

It does help if you don't decide to miss off half of the directions given!

 

(4) Where the relevant road has one carriageway, then signs to which this direction applies need only be placed on one side of the relevant road to indicate the point at which a restriction, requirement, prohibition (but not a speed limit) begins in the following cases -

 

(a) where the restriction, requirement or prohibition applies only to traffic on one side of the relevant road; or
 
(b) at a junction where -
 

(i) traffic proceeding on another road on which it is permitted to proceed only in one direction turns into the relevant road; or
 
(ii) the carriageway of the relevant road is less than 5 metres wide and the sign is so placed that its centre is within 2 metres of the edge of the carriageway.

[sailor sam]

G & M old fruit, in case you have read this wrong, i'm actually agreeing with you on this!

 

But not on the signage issue and here's why; A number of years ago i did a stint as a private hire driver in a lil old town called Wolverhampton. In said town they restricted a few street sections to 'buses only' similar to the one in question here. The exemption was cycle and black cabs (which of course dosn't include PH's). At first they only put the one sign on one where I got pulled. I challenged it on the basis that I was following a bus so as the only sign was on the nearside, I argued I could'nt see it because of the bus. It was thrown out because there was only one sign. the same bus lane now has 2 signs but is still non-compliant as you will see by going to this link;

 

markest street wolverhampton - Google Maps

 

The buliding opposite is actually the main Wolves police station! My story relates to about 15 years ago by the way.

 

So I believe that the bus lane in your photo is also non-compliant for the same reason in addition to all the resaons you have identified.

 

__________________

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my scales at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice usefull.

[green_and_mean]

G & M old fruit, in case you have read this wrong, i'm actually agreeing with you on this!

 

But not on the signage issue and here's why; A number of years ago i did a stint as a private hire driver in a lil old town called Wolverhampton. In said town they restricted a few street sections to 'buses only' similar to the one in question here. The exemption was cycle and black cabs (which of course dosn't include PH's). At first they only put the one sign on one where I got pulled. I challenged it on the basis that I was following a bus so as the only sign was on the nearside, I argued I could'nt see it because of the bus. It was thrown out because there was only one sign. the same bus lane now has 2 signs but is still non-compliant as you will see by going to this link;

 

markest street wolverhampton - Google Maps

 

The buliding opposite is actually the main Wolves police station! My story relates to about 15 years ago by the way.

 

So I believe that the bus lane in your photo is also non-compliant for the same reason in addition to all the resaons you have identified.

 

__________________

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

 

Please click my scales at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice usefull.

 

It is not non compliant for that reason if the restriction is on one side of the carriageway it only requires one sign (para 4)

[sailor sam]

We will agree to disagree because I won on the basis that a driver entering a street totally restriced to buses (and cycle/taxis) cannot see a sign positioned on the nearside only when following a bus! There only need to be one sign if the bus lane shares the same road as normal traffic going in the same direction.

 

__________________

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my scales at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice usefull.

[green_and_mean]

We will agree to disagree because I won on the basis that a driver entering a street totally restriced to buses (and cycle/taxis) cannot see a sign positioned on the nearside only when following a bus! There only need to be one sign if the bus lane shares the same road as normal traffic going in the same direction.

 

 

There is nothing to agree or disagree about the TSRGD is law and it clearly states only one sign is needed if the prohibition applies to one side of the road, the Traffic signs manual also backs this up. I don't dispute you got off because you didn't see the sign because it was obscure by a bus but that doesn't change the statutary requirements.

[boonburger]

Hi

 

Just discovered this forum..good stuff!

 

I received a PCN for exactly the same thing at the same junction. Dated of allegded offence was 5 May 2010.

 

I sought advice elesewhere and have recently appealed. This was on the same basis that green_and _mean has advised and i am awaiting a response.

 

Regards

 

boonburger

[green_and_mean]

Hi

 

Just discovered this forum..good stuff!

 

I received a PCN for exactly the same thing at the same junction. Dated of allegded offence was 5 May 2010.

 

I sought advice elesewhere and have recently appealed. This was on the same basis that green_and _mean has advised and i am awaiting a response.

 

Regards

 

boonburger

 

I think it was a friend of mine that advised you on pepipoo. Keep us informed

[boonburger]

I see...I did notice some common arguments!

 

Will do. Cheers

[RBKsuck]

Fines Could Be Reclaimed - Says this weeks (2nd July) Surrey Comet

 

A recent victim of this C/F Bus Lane won on the grounds of a wrongly worded PCN.

 

The Royal Borough withdrew the charge for Mr Morgan after he informed them the wording was incorrect. A PCN must state “an enforcement notice MAY be served” but since 2005 RBK wording has be “Will be served”.

 

This is information according to the Surrey Comet and it also states that last year 5,686 motorists paid the council a total of £342,000 for bus lane contraventions.

 

As yet, this in not on line on the Comet site.

[green_and_mean]

Fines Could Be Reclaimed - Says this weeks (2nd July) Surrey Comet

 

A recent victim of this C/F Bus Lane won on the grounds of a wrongly worded PCN.

 

The Royal Borough withdrew the charge for Mr Morgan after he informed them the wording was incorrect. A PCN must state “an enforcement notice MAY be served” but since 2005 RBK wording has be “Will be served”.

 

This is information according to the Surrey Comet and it also states that last year 5,686 motorists paid the council a total of £342,000 for bus lane contraventions.

 

As yet, this in not on line on the Comet site.

 

A complete avoidance of the main issue its unlikely that the PCN would have been cancelled at PATAS over such a minor error. The person in the article also used my wrong legislation argument and RBK have cancelled to avoid the matter going to PATAS. RBK have also refused to answer any of my communication on the matter.

[RBKsuck]

I note that they have recently changed the Sign 953 you refer too (Eden Street/Union Street Junction), although still located on the same post. It is now a sign that can the ‘flipped’ or changed for whatever reason, by a folding hinge. I just wonder what is on the reverse!