Signed up to Talk Talk Pro against my will

[kjaye]

Hi,

 

I hope somebody here will be able to advise me.

 

For the past three years I had been a very happy and satisfied Tiscali customer. Then in December I was told by Talk Talk that they had bought Tiscali out and that they were wishing to transfer their customers over to their Talk Talk Pro line.

 

I was not interested initially as changing ISP's in my experience always goes wrong somewhere but the salesamn was insistent that I benefit greatly from far faster speeds (24 mb vs 8 mb), a completely unrestricted service with no fair usage policy, speed caps or montly downloard restrictions and also substantial savings as my phone and broadband bills would be combined.

 

He also assured me, and I made him confirm this and give me his name, that if I wasa not happy I could just transfer straight back to my existing Tiscali account again.

 

It seemed a no risk, nothing to lose offer so I agreed.

 

However, I then looked up for reader reviews and opinions on the Talk Talk Pro service and saw that many were less than satisfied. Download speeds had often decreased rather than increased, there was capping and bandwidth management in place for torrent and file sharing clients and most alarmingly they would unbundle me from my BT line meaning I would not be able to go with any other ISP.

 

So learning this I immediatley cancelled the order, still more than two weeks to go before I was due to go live.

 

A week later I received a letter from BT telling me my line was being unbundled so I telephone Talk Talk again to say I had cancelled my order and they said it was cancelled and to ignore the BT letter.

 

However on the 12th Feb, despite twice confirming my order to Talk Talk had been cancelled I 'went live' on the new Talk Talk Pro package.

 

I immediately telephoned and said I didn't want to be on this and could they transfer me back to my Tiscali account and they replied that although they were very sorry, and could see I had cancelled the order twice previously that they could not transfer me back because I was now on their Talk Talk LLU service, i.e. against my explicit wished they had unbundled me anyway leaving me effectively in limbo.

 

I cannot migrate to another ISP, my download speeds have indeed DECREASED to around half of my old Tiscali service and despite repeated telephone calls Talk Talk insist there is nothing they can do other than allow me to leave with no penalty, although this will mean I will have to pay for having my line put back to BT and then will be without internet for several weeks until my line is reconnected and I can sign up with another ISP.

 

I cannot explain in words how annoyed I am by this! Surely Talk Talk should reconnect my line to BT and then give me a MAC code so I can transfer to another provider, or else put me back on my old Tiscali account. If they cannot do this I feel I should be compensated for both the cost of having to get my line put back onto BT again, and also for the inevitable down time I will suffer probably of around three weeks without internet access.

 

Can anybody advise me as to what I can do in this situation? To reiterate, I have been signed up to a Talk Talk Pro package despite twice cancelling the order, and have now been unbundled so I cannot transfer to another ISP provider.

[buzby]

The problem is that you DID sign up (only to change your mind), so you cannot claim that you've been 'Slammed'. If you put a complaint into a regulator, then they will use the 'incompetence' defence and no other action result. In the meantime you get to have your services disrupted as they play with your lifeline.

 

It is BT who arrange the physical work to switch you to to TT's LLU. Your Tiscali account is effectively dead, so that will not be an option. Once TT took on Tiscali, it was a foregone conclusion that the entire customer base would move to the new platform (as it is cheaper for TT to administer).

 

A further (possible) problem, is that you've actually USED the new service, which could have the problem of them saying you confirmed your need of the service (irrespective of whether it met your needs) so watch out for this.

 

Since you were not a BT customer previously, you would be going to them as a new customer, so they can probably sort the bulk of your problems out, but you need to get TT to confirm there is no service as your address and any possible liabilities on the previously cancelled contract have been waived.

[kjaye]

The problem is that you DID sign up (only to change your mind), so you cannot claim that you've been 'Slammed'. If you put a complaint into a regulator, then they will use the 'incompetence' defence and no other action result. In the meantime you get to have your services disrupted as they play with your lifeline.

 

It is BT who arrange the physical work to switch you to to TT's LLU. Your Tiscali account is effectively dead, so that will not be an option. Once TT took on Tiscali, it was a foregone conclusion that the entire customer base would move to the new platform (as it is cheaper for TT to administer).

 

A further (possible) problem, is that you've actually USED the new service, which could have the problem of them saying you confirmed your need of the service (irrespective of whether it met your needs) so watch out for this.

 

Since you were not a BT customer previously, you would be going to them as a new customer, so they can probably sort the bulk of your problems out, but you need to get TT to confirm there is no service as your address and any possible liabilities on the previously cancelled contract have been waived.

 

 

Hi Buzby, thanks for the reply although I must admit I don't fully understand everything you are saying.

 

What I want from Talk Talk is for them to reconnect me back to BT at no charge to myself and then allow me to migrate from them to an ISP of my choice.

 

I have recorded dates, times and names of all phone calls with Talk Talk to basically cover myself in the event of them doing something like this.

 

I accepted to go on the Pro package on the 29th of January. I telephone to cancel on the 31st of Jan only 48 hours later.

 

I telephoned again to confirm it was cancelled on the 7th of February and it went live anyway on the 12th.

 

I have the name of the sales person who told me that if I wasn't happy with the service I could be migrated back to my old Tiscali account which I assume they must have to have recorded by law so cannot I not force them to pay fro my reconnecting to BT seeing as I explicity telephoned to cancel the order well before my live date? (I also have the cancellation ref number)

 

I don't understand how pleading 'incompetence' can absolve them from the responsibility of having to put right what they have done and get me reconnected back to a BT line without causing me any downtime on the internet.

 

If it does result in me being offline for 3 weeks surely they must have to compensate me in some way, this seems completely unfair to me.

 

I admit I don't know how the technical details work of unbundling, but as I was still with a BT lanline whilst with Tiscali who are now Talk Talk can they not put my line back to BT and then keep me online with Talk Talk whilst I migrate to another ISP?

 

Why would I have to downtime? I'm sorry if I'm slow to understand this put can't see why they can't do this (they told me they can't).

 

Ideally I'd like to get in touch with a regulator or something that could force them to pay my reconnection fees to get my line put back to BT and then maintain me on their Talk Talk Pro service with my BT line until I have migrated to somebody else.

 

It must be physically possible for Talk Talk to do this and as I have confirmation proof that my order was cancelled well before it was due to go live they should be obligated under the law to carry out this request?

[buzby]

OK, here goes:

 

(1) What you ask for is not unreasonable, but in the way this consumer 'choice' has been imposed on firms and their customers, is a kludge, any many non-interfacing systems are just not able to make the process seamless, and as such requires human intervention to achieve, and all this assumes the person doing the work actually is aware of what is required and knows how to achieve it.

 

(2) Unfortunately, sales staff are not always aware of the technicalities, or company policy, so whilst they can promise you anything in the mistaken belief it can be delivered (so they're not 'lying') in the real world it is not achievable, so this is where the incompetence comes in. Someone will look at the situation and confirm what you required was not possible and some other solution must be found. There's no magic wand to make it happen because someone mistakenly thought it could.

 

(3) What the best course of action will be, depends on you getting someone competent to see the issues and arrange a 'solution'. We're talking about a technical solution, not one that is easiest or best for you (the customer) it all hinges on what THEY can do - bearing in mind, they have no local network of their own, but 'borrow BT's.

 

(4) You may not have downtime - but I'd bet you £1 there will be disruption of some sort as all the different segments pull together and are enabled. It isn't like plumbing - where the source material (water/gas) is ready to be supplied from the nearest utility cabinet. Once I became aware of how fickle the whole process was, I vowed never to rely on a system like this (being over complex for its own good). I get the network to supply me with the service I require - a one-stop-shop from end to end.

 

You continue to think TT have customer-facing engineers. They do not. They contract BT Openreach to do it, who charge them for everything from exchange enabling and cable pair routing - whilst TT run flash adverts for their network, neglect to tell customers they use third parties to to much of the work.

 

As to your problem, there is a time when to cut and run, and seeing the mess you are in I believe this is the only way to achieve satisfaction quickly and without delays, anything else can prolong the agony and most likely inconvenience you for ages whilst they work out what to do.

[kjaye]

Thanks for replying again so soon! I have to be honest I'm still not exactly clear as to what your advising me to do however! I'm very much a layman when it comes to ISP's whereas clearly you have a deep knowledge of it and are using words I just don't understand!

 

I don't know what customer facing engineers are or BT Openreach or using a network to supply you means just to name a few.

 

So if you can keep it simple what would you do in my shoes?

 

I want to go with Be internet, so how do I go about it?

 

Do I just cancel Talk Talk, get cut off, pay to get my BT line reconnected and then wait the inevitable 3 weeks or so before I have broadband again. And if so do I incur whatever charges BT want myself? I believe they charge £125 to reconnect?

 

 

Or can I make Talk Talk pay to get me reconnected to BT and use their service in the meantime.

 

Irrespective of their customer salesteam being incompetent in explaining their services surely it is illegal to sign somebody up to something when they have cancelled, and had notification to confirm they have cancelled?

 

I would think that just demonstrating I had cancelled the service less than 48 hours before ordering and have proof would mean that by law they must cover the expense of reconnecting my line back to BT and also to provide me with a service in the meantime. Clearly you don't seem to think this is possible but would you try and demand it of them anyway?

 

I just don't understand what you're actually advising me to do?

[buzby]

A clean start - assuming there is no residual nonsense from TT about you being committed to them for X months.

 

BT will accept your order for a new line - and there is still free reconnection if you agree to 18 months minimum service. As soon as it is in and you know the number, you cna arrange with any ISP for service, and they will impose their own minimum term (usually 12 months, but can be 18 if they provide any routers).

 

Call TT and get them to confirm you plan to cease the line, due to their non delivery of the service you expected and the date for this. This is also the time to find out if you want to keep your old phone number.

[kjaye]

Thanks Buzby, this all sounds rather depressing though. I have no desire to be in a contract with BT, I've always been happy with Talk Talk for their phone deal and I certainly don't want down time from the internet and to possibly lose my phone number.

 

I just want to be reconnected to my BT line and then for Talk Talk to have to supply me broadband via my BT line until they can sort me with a migrate code so I can leave without having a 3 week cut off from the net.

 

I just don't see why I should be inconvencienced in that way when I cancelled the order for their services several weeks before it was due to go live and only 48 hours after the initial phone call.

 

I am awaiting to hear what Talk Talk will say about this on their forum, and am prepared to write to Trading Standards if necessary.

 

You don't seem to hold out much hope of me being able to get them to pay for the cost of reconnecting what they unconnected but I will try anway.

 

Downtime from the net, a forced contract for 12 months with BT and having to have a new home phone number are all unnaceptable to me and I'd want compensation for that inconvenience.

[locutus]

You will probably have read this by now, but I'll post it just in case. TalkTalk Code Of Practice (Section 14 is the complaints bit)

[kjaye]

Thanks Locotus, I hadn't seen that actually.

 

I have been in touch with Ofcom and the guy I spoke to told me that this process of signing customers up against their will is known as 'flamming', and that I should be able to force Talk Talk to pay to have me reconnected to BT as I don't wish to be in a contract with BT and maybe demand some compensation.

 

I will follow up on his advice and keep you all informed as to what happens.

[buzby]

I hope he's better acquatinted in industry terminology (or you may have misheard). Hijacking a telecom account is called 'slamming', but this has NOT happened in your case - so I don't think he understood.

[locutus]

Maybe he has a lisp? You agreed to move then changed your mind... slamming is you saying "No I don't want to move to TalkTalk" and them taking your line anyway.

 

Anyhow, I've only ever had a problem worth writing to the telecoms company twice, both times I followed this procedure and the problem was sorted to my satisfaction both times.

 

Follow the section 14 of the Code of Practice and write a letter. Make sure you include the desired outcome (be it them supply you with a dongle for the outage period, ensure you get to keep your old number and pay you some compensation or whatever) and also say if it is not acceptable by them they can reply with a DEADLOCK letter so you can escalate the complaint. Keep it polite and assertive. Keep us informed

[buzby]

In addition to the possible lisp, there IS no slamming. A customer asks for a service, and then changes their mind. If the move goes ahead, that's incompetence. It was not slammed by subterfuge. Half the problems on here are people entering into binding agreements, and then changing their mind. Forgetting, the best time to change their mind is before they've parted with their money or agreed a course of action.

[locutus]

Yeah, I agree Buzby.

 

Agreeing to move and then changing your mind is not slamming.

 

Telling them an absolute "No" and them still taking your line IS slamming which is not the case here.

 

IMO Talktalk shoud be the ones paying to rectify their incompetence tho, not kjaye

[kjaye]

In addition to the possible lisp, there IS no slamming. A customer asks for a service, and then changes their mind. If the move goes ahead, that's incompetence. It was not slammed by subterfuge. Half the problems on here are people entering into binding agreements, and then changing their mind. Forgetting, the best time to change their mind is before they've parted with their money or agreed a course of action.

#

 

 

Have you ever dealt with a Talk Talk Salesman? These people don't take no for an answer. They telephoned three times to get me to change from Tiscali and when I said I wasn't interested the salesman, a Dan Bridgeman told me to record the details of the call so I could quote him back on saying that the line would be guaranteed unrestricted with at least 10mb download 24/7 and that I would have the option to migrate back to Tiscali with no questions asked if i wasn't satisfied.

 

After him on the phone for about an hour I said yes mainly get rid of him, plus he made it sound like it was a no lose deal.

 

Of course when I checked it out I realised it was all lies of course, and helpfully he never mentioned the fact they were going to unbundle my line.

 

I cancelled within 48 hours.

 

I think the salescall was bordering on illegal and am complaining about him personally, and the non cancellation was most likely deliberate.

 

I certainly feel like I've been 'slammed' and the Ofcom guy told me I was so I intend to complain and don't expect leaving to cost me a penny.

[kjaye]

Maybe he has a lisp? You agreed to move then changed your mind... slamming is you saying "No I don't want to move to TalkTalk" and them taking your line anyway.

 

Anyhow, I've only ever had a problem worth writing to the telecoms company twice, both times I followed this procedure and the problem was sorted to my satisfaction both times.

 

Follow the section 14 of the Code of Practice and write a letter. Make sure you include the desired outcome (be it them supply you with a dongle for the outage period, ensure you get to keep your old number and pay you some compensation or whatever) and also say if it is not acceptable by them they can reply with a DEADLOCK letter so you can escalate the complaint. Keep it polite and assertive. Keep us informed

 

Thanks Locotus, that's very helpful mate.

 

I don't understand the bit about the dongle? What does that mean exactlly, can they continue to provide with broadband by a usb dongle whilst my line is cut off?

 

I telephoned BT about going back to them and he told me that Talk Talk could do a reversed migration and just reconvert me, although the Ofcom guy told me he had never heard of that and wasn't sure if that was possible.

 

As I've said from the outset, what I want is a standard telephone line again so i can go to the ISP of my choice, and no interrupted service in the meantime, or else compensation if that is forced upon me.

 

Thanks for the tips I appreciate you taking the time to offer help.

[locutus]

You can get internet over the 3g mobile phone signal. If you have a 3g mobile phone (be it from Three (3), Vodafone, T-Mobile, o2 or Orange) and the 3g signal is strong, you can buy a pay as you go dongle on that network, they cost £20 - £40 and just plug it in. They're OK for surfing but work out expensive if you need to download large files. They can be similar speed to a landline broadband... I'd personally try to get TalkTalk to pay for this.

 

Busby means the same thing I do, It will be put down to incompetence rather than slamming. Slamming insinuates they willfully took your line without your consent, you gave consent then changed your mind and they were incompetent in canceling. Still their fault, but complaining that you were slammed they will just listen to your original call for the order and say you agreed and weren't slammed an you've just wasted time running in circles rather than getting things sorted which is what you want. Your complaint is they didn't act on your cancelation request which you did in plenty of time.

[kjaye]

You can get internet over the 3g mobile phone signal. If you have a 3g mobile phone (be it from Three (3), Vodafone, T-Mobile, o2 or Orange) and the 3g signal is strong, you can buy a pay as you go dongle, they cost £20 - £40 and just plug it in. They're OK for surfing but work out expensive if you need to download large files... I'd personally try to get TalkTalk to pay for this.

 

Busby means the same thing I do, It will be put down to incompetence rather than slamming. Slamming insinuates they willfully took your line without your consent, you gave consent then changed your mind and they were incompetent in canceling. Still their fault, but complaining that you were slammed they will just listen to your original call for the order and say you agreed and weren't slammed an you've just wasted time rather than getting things sorted which is what you want.

 

Thanks Locotus, I see what you mean. I've looked at the Ofcom guidlines and I believe miss-selling is what it comes under.

 

I would really like to complain about the salesman. He offered me his name and told I could quote him on the following details:

 

1) I could simply migrate back to my existing Tiscali account at any time within the first 30 days of my Talk Talk Pro account becoming active.

 

2) The Talk Talk Pro package does not have any traffic shaping, restrictions of bandwidth or even a fair usage policy at all.

 

3) I would be guaranteed a speed greater than the 800k I got from Tiscali by at least another 200k.

 

It is my experience now that not a single one of these statements is true, and I believe that 'incompetence' is a poor excuse. It seems clear to me that he deliberately misled me in order to make the sale and as I have the phonecall recorded I think this should be investigated. Do you agree?

 

Even if it doesn't benefit me I don't think they should be allowed to get away with falsifying information in that way to coerce people into entering into contracts.

 

The failure to cancel the order is a seperate issue of course but I intend to complain about both.

 

This has really caused me considerable stress over the past few weeks and the loss of my internet connection for a month or so will massively inconvenience me.

 

I would be tempted to remain with them just to avoid all of this hassle but I think it only fair that I am compensated if I decide to do this. Again, I ask if you agree, and if so what you feel would be a fair amount to ask for?

 

Thanks again for your friendly advice mate.

[locutus]

Try this website. The TalkTalk Members Forums

 

Same style of website as this (v.bulletin forum) so you will already be a little familiar with it, also the people on there I have found honest and friendly, and genuinely want to help. See if they can tweak your speed and make the 3rd statement come true.

 

Log your complaint with them using the method outlined in the code of practice regarding the salesperson mis-selling.

 

Now, a fair amount to ask for in compensation I'm not sure about. How much financially have you been put out by? I'd say apart from the connection being slower (which I really do think the website I pointed you to will be able to sort), and you not being able to return as you were promised there is not a lot of difference between TalkTalk and your old ISP. Maybe ask for £2 or £3 per month off as the speeds are slower and you've spent so much time trying to sort this problem out amicably? Thats just my opinion, happy hunting and keep us informed.

[kjaye]

Yeah that sounds fair I guess. The inconvenience is significant however. I mean for me my broadband is my only form of entertainment, as I don't even have a television, I use my internet account for tv and basically everything, so speed is paramount and I would happily pay a premium to ensure I got the fast speeds I wanted. Joining Be for example would mean about an extra £20 a month cost but to me it's worth it to have a fast 10mb plus download available whenever I want it. So in that sense as they have denied me the possibility of joining an ISP whose extra speed I really desire I feel they have cost me a great deal.

 

In the end if they can boost my speeds to 600/700k plus on a 24/7 basis as with my Tiscali account I will stay with them I guess.

 

But anything less than 500 is just unacceptable to me and as I'm now forced to them until I manually deactivate my phone I think they have cost me quite a bit.

 

I will work out a letter to send them, and at the very least I will complain about their salesman, because he needs to be disciplined for spinning such yarns imo, and to prevent him from doing it to others.

 

On the forum you mentioned it seems such customer discontent for exactly that reason is rife.

[locutus]

You could say this forum is full of discontent... primarily that is what the forum is to sort. TalkTalk customer service over the phone is a joke in my experience, I've been with them since they started doing the free broadband, so I have had quite a lot of discussions over the phone... they say what you wanna hear just to get you off the line then do nothing about it. On the forum the staff actually do help. They will change your internet settings from the server end to tweak it as fast as it will go, and balance the stability with you.

 

All I do is ask to try a faster profile, if it becomes unstable I ask them to move it back. They are very good with me, they are polite and they action the work within a couple of hours on work days, so it's everything you will want from a customer service department (unlike the blooming call center monkeys!).

 

In all honesty I think they'll work with you and get the speed as good as you expected in the beginning.

 

Keep us informed.

[kjaye]

Hey Locotus, actually I agree the forum staff have been very helpful, one of the tech staff, Emma, has switched my profile and my speeds have gone up to approximately what I was getting with Tiscali, so if it stays that way I shall be happy.

 

I will attempt to solve all problems via their forum in future and avoid the customer service like the plague, thanks for all your advice and help mate, hopefully the problems are resolved now, as long as the service runs well and I don't suffer from slow speeds like I have the past couple weeks then I'm pretty content.

[rickybigpants]

i have a tale to tell about talk talk/tiscali..since jan the ammount ive paid for my account has risen by £10 roughly.I rang talk talk today to query why it had risen and that i hadnt changed anything of my concerning my account ,id also had a letter from bt saying that id been refunded £26.

 

no other letters either from talk talk/tiscali or bt other than the refund notice.

 

so anyway im on the phone to them and i got through to thier billing and shes says to me that the extra £10 or so is the line rental.Im saying to her but i dont pay you line rental i pay bt.She offered me to send bt bills into the head office to prove this.

 

So im thinking hang on ill check with bt so i ring bt on 150 and guess what ,you cannot use this number on this line.

 

what they've done is change my line without my consent or with any corrispondence and also started billing me accordingly again without my knowledge or consent.Im fuming what action if any is open to me ?

Edited March 18, 2010 by rickybigpants
typo error

[buzby]

From memory (and a hazy one at that) TT have a policy whereby when local exchanges permit full LLU the customer is transferred (due to the cost benefits to TT as the cost of initiating calls is considerably lower). As you already have a commercial relationship with TT this isn't 'slamming' in the accepted sense, and as you are not financially disadvantaged on the basic tariff - there is no real requirement to advise their customer.

 

However there are consequential ramifications, especially if you had (say) BT deals offering free CLI where it is no longer possible for you to make x number of calls via BT to keep the free package. I agree they should have been more upfront in advising you, but I do believe they do this, but perhaps in a way easily overlooked (in a bill stuffer, perhaps?).

 

As for action being open to you - well, the only solution is for you to terminate your relationship and remain as a BT customer, the arrangement you liked was a kludge and a short-term solution until TT could take control of your line, so your angst may be unjustified.

[rickybigpants]

thank you for the reply.

 

i think my best option is to ask them to transfer the account back to bt (free of charge) and terminate my contract with them.

 

it might be industry standard way of doing things but it doesnt feel/sit right with customers who end up not knowing what they are paying for and have thier bills swapped and pushed up without any say in the matter.

 

sorry if it sounds like im shooting the messenger ,far from it i appreciate your response im just frustrated with these kind of practises

[buzby]

I can see where you're coming from - but their argument would be they were always aspiring to take control of your line, and now they can. Sky do (did) exactly the same thing.

 

Since most folk are happy to let firms control their their financial affairs (by using Direct Debit) juggling with phone lines is way down the scale of over-reaching themselves.

 

Do watch out for any TT potential penatlies for leaving - and why not ask BT why they did not send you a 'sorry you are leaving' letter?