Can I report bailiff for fraud??

[munchkette]

Arrrrgh

 

Just followed up with the council as I have not received any reply from them with regards to my complaint. They told me they had send a letter out last week as had the bailiff - I haven't received any of these.

 

I asked the council what they wrote in the letter they said that in light of the conflicting stories from myself and the bailiff they have decided to leave the debt with the bailiff Not even one word of an apology!!!

 

Had I not followed up on this I would have been none the wiser until the bailiff once again showed up at my door. I told the council I am not happy and they should take back the debt in light of the bailiff's conduct and my being unemployed. They refused - they instead offered me a compromise of paying £20/mth to them and if I default the bailiff would resume control of the debt - she didn't actually say this arrangement meant the debt was coming back to the council. I asked her how much the amount outstanding was and the figure she gave was barely £100 off the original debt despite the fact I have paid £400 to the bailiff.

 

She said that the bailiff will have deducted their fees. I rejected the whole arrangement as frankly the bailiff levied on my goods illegally and I am not happy to pay any of their fees except a first visit fee of £24.50. The lady at the council said that as I disputed the fees and did not accept her 'compromise arrangement' (how very nice of her ) I would need to write another letter to the Chief Executive officer of the council to say I am not happy with her response to my complaint. For the moment she has placed a hold on the debt to allow for me to receive copies of the response letters from the council and bailiff and send my reply to the chief executive officer.

 

What a nightmare!

 

Also can somebody please help me with drafting a follow-up letter to reclaim the credit card payment to the bailiff???

[Thegreenpimpernel]

Have you had a breakdown of fees so far ? ( sorry if I've missed them earlier)

 

You need some grounds for the card charge-back, i.e that the services provided (i.e legally fleecing you ) were not those charged for.

[munchkette]

The walking possession agreement listed the following charges:

Levy fee - £189

Another fee with no description - £45

 

I am going to phone the council on Monday to ask the bailiffs to provide the details of the fees that have been applied as the bailiff has not responded to my letter for a breakdown of fees.

 

I received a letter back from Bromley County court in response to my complaint all the letter said was:

 

'Having read you (sp) letter of the 17th March, the judge has said that you as the Complainant might wise to take legal advice in this matter.'

 

And that is all it said, it did not address any of the questions that I put in my letter - namely to provide the full name of the judge that decided on my complaint, to provide details of their complaint procedure, to provide an explanation of how exactly the judge had determined the bailiff's entry to be legal and which part of my description of what happened led them to that belief.

 

Now with this letter there is no indication of what exactly I should be taking legal advice for or from whom. To say their service is shoddy is an understatement, it almost makes me belief whoever this clerk is responding to me is in the employ of the bailiff themselves!

 

I shall try to phone the court tomorrow and also send them an e-mail as this is completely unacceptable. Does anyone have any advice on a plan of action as I seem to be going in circles here??

[munchkette]

some help please anybody???

[hallowitch]

not taking into account the way the bailiff gained enter

 

what goods are listed on the walking possession agreement

have you had a breakdown of your account from the bailiff

 

Levy fee - £189 does it actually say this on the notice of seizure of goods and inventory

Another fee with no description - £45

 

can you scan and post this notice of seizure

how much was the debt

[munchkette]

goods listed on the walking possession agreement:

 

xbox 360, hi-fi stereo, blu-ray player, 46" lcd tv, PC speakers, sat nav, digital camera, printer, 23" lcd monitor, mountain bike

 

There is a section below the goods listed where they can write in additional fees it says:

 

Council Tax: £719.27

Court Costs: blank

Visit fees/attendance: blank

Levy fee: £189

Subtotal: £45 (they have written £45 here don't know what this is for, perhaps it should have come on one of the other lines)

Total due: £953.27

 

How do I add scanned docs to my post?

 

I will be asking the council tomorrow to confirm the original debt amount but I believe it to be £650 from my last convo with them. I requested a breakdown of the fees charged from the bailiff over a month ago - they have not replied.

[hallowitch]

goods listed on the walking possession agreement:

 

xbox 360, hi-fi stereo, blu-ray player, 46" lcd tv, PC speakers, sat nav, digital camera, printer, 23" lcd monitor, mountain bike

 

There is a section below the goods listed where they can write in additional fees it says:

 

Council Tax: £719.27

Court Costs: blank

Visit fees/attendance: blank

Levy fee: £189

if £719 is correct the levy fee would be £45/46 i think this is an attendance to remove fee dressed up as a levy fee

Subtotal: £45 (they have written £45 here don't know what this is for, perhaps it should have come on one of the other lines)

I suspect this is the levy fee

 

Total due: £953.27

 

How do I add scanned docs to my post?

 

photo bucket is the preferred method used by most people

 

I will be asking the council tomorrow to confirm the original debt amount but I believe it to be £650 from my last convo with them.

 

also ask them the date the debt was passed to the bailiffs

 

I requested a breakdown of the fees charged from the bailiff over a month ago - they have not replied.

 

how did you request this by e-mail or snail mail was it sent recorded delivery

[tomtubby]

goods listed on the walking possession agreement:

 

xbox 360, hi-fi stereo, blu-ray player, 46" lcd tv, PC speakers, sat nav, digital camera, printer, 23" lcd monitor, mountain bike

 

There is a section below the goods listed where they can write in additional fees it says:

 

Council Tax: £719.27

Court Costs: blank

Visit fees/attendance: blank

Levy fee: £189

Subtotal: £45 (they have written £45 here don't know what this is for, perhaps it should have come on one of the other lines)

Total due: £953.27

 

How do I add scanned docs to my post?

 

I will be asking the council tomorrow to confirm the original debt amount but I believe it to be £650 from my last convo with them. I requested a breakdown of the fees charged from the bailiff over a month ago - they have not replied.

 

 

I do not have a calculator but it would appear that the levy fee is approx £120 more than it should be. Refer to the scale of fees.

[munchkette]

@hallowitch

I sent the bailiff a subject access request letter in February, they never replied to me

 

Just spoke to the council they confirmed the liability order was issued for £676.77 so not sure what the additional £41.50 the bailiff applied to that amount is for??

 

The council said less the payment they received from the bailiff the amount now outstanding is £553.27. So out of the £400 I paid to the bailiff they have deducted £276.50 in charges.

 

The council has requested the bailiff to call me this afternoon to give me a breakdown of the charges they have applied. This will be interesting as when I asked for the same bailiff manager to phone me he refused.

 

I calculate that the levy fee should have been £44.02 and if they wanted to charge it the walking possession fee should have been £12 making a total of £56.02 not £189 or £234 (189 + 45)

 

As I understand it the bailiff cannot charge an attendance to remove fee until AFTER a walking possession agreement has been signed so they cannot charge this on the same day that the walking possession agreement is signed.

[munchkette]

@greenpimpernel - having read the charges can you suggest some grounds for me to argue the case for a chargeback of the money paid to the bailiff.

 

I really would like to just charge basck the full amount from them if possible. They had no grounds to be taken money from me in the first place as they did not obtain peaceful entry to my home.

 

Update on my court complaint - as the telephone line at Bromley County Court seems to be permanently engaged from dawn till dusk I have sent them an e-mail and copied in hmcs customer service asking for details of the court manager so I can make a complaint about how my case has been handled. Hopefully that will get me somewhere. At the moment it seems like I am being fobbed off in the hope that I will give up and go away

[Thegreenpimpernel]

As i see it, you need to write / e-mail the bailiffs with your challenge to their charges, get a reply (whatever that is ) and take it from there.

 

The card company will not be interested in peaceful entry and so on...

 

Just whether a payment does or does not not match up to the payment agreed / the 'services' not being provided.

 

Refusing to respond to your query may, in itself warrant a refund - it depends on the card company and the person it goes to.

 

Can't say more tonight - I've just popped in for my tea - then straight out again..............

[munchkette]

^

Have you got any more info?

 

I am still awaiting the bailiff to call me to advise on the charges they have applied. Apparently they have sent me a letter, but seeing as I have never received any of the letters they claim to have sent me I am still insisting on a call back to run through the charges.

 

I really do want to do my best to try and reclaim the money from the bailiffs if possible.

 

I shall also be preparing a letter to send to the Chief Executive Officer of the council to escalate my complaint tomorrow.

[Thegreenpimpernel]

To stand a chance of a successful charge back, you need to construct a case like:

 

I paid ****** Ltd £XXX in good faith. ****** Ltd advised me that was the amount due according to their table of fees.

 

Since then i have found that the payment does not correspond with the published fee scale, and therefore cannot ascertain what the payment is for.

 

I believe i have been deceived and deliberately overcharged.

 

I have written to them X No. of times and have been repeatedly assured of a response both in writing and by telephone.

 

To this date xx/xx/2010 ****** Ltd have chosen not to provide me with the promised breakdown of services, charges or an invoice relating to the amount paid over.

 

On this basis i would like to request a charge back in accordance with section 75 of the consumer credit act.

 

The payment was for £xxx to ****** Ltd on XX/2010.

Card statement ref:XXXXX

 

 

Your bank are NOT interested in the details of your case, or what is right or wrong. Only whether the 'service provider' provided the 'services' charged for.

 

They would process payments for nerve gas to dictators if it were legal, and if there was a dollar in it for them. They would permit a charge-back if the nerve gas didn't arrive or didn't do 'what it said on the tin'.

Edited March 31, 2010 by Thegreenpimpernel

[munchkette]

It has been a while, needed a break as all this was doing my head in plus I was awaiting a breakdown of the list of charges from the bailiff. Something they still haven't sent but I managed to obtain this from the council.

 

So I have put together my letter to request a chargeback of the money paid to the bailiff. Can you have a look over it and make any suggestions for tidying it up and putting my point across any better? Thanks!

 

I would like to again request the recovery of these funds because I the consumer have been defrauded by the merchant Goodwillie & Corcoran in fees that are not prescribed in law and in doing so they have committed an offence under Section 15A(1) of the Theft Act 1996, Section 2(1)(b)(i) and Section 4(1)©(i) of the Fraud Act 2006. I have contacted the merchant several times by phone and in writing to obtain a breakdown of the charges applied but they have failed to respond to my requests. A letter was sent to them which they confirmed they received on 12th February however they failed to provide a breakdown of the charges applied as requested.

 

Greenwich council obtained a breakdown of the charges deducted from the £402 by Goodwillie & Corcoran and have provided me with the following:

 

First visit: £24.50

Second visit: £18.00

Levy fee: £45

Van fee: £189

Debit card charge: £2

Total: £278.50

 

The bailiff’s visit on 10th February was the first and only visit that they made to my property therefore I dispute the charging of the two visit fees. If the claim is that one of the charges is for the visit on 10th February – the schedule of bailiff’s fees (see attached) states that a visit fee cannot be charged at the same time as a levy fee. Therefore in applying a visit fee as well as a levy fee they have defrauded me. With regards to the van fee – this is not a prescribed fee per the bailiff fee schedule. If they mean this to be an ‘Attendance fee’ the fee schedule states that this can only be charged on one occasion for a subsequent visit AFTER a walking possession agreement has been issued. They cannot charge this on the same day the walking possession agreement is issued therefore by charging this fee Goodwillie & Corcoran have defrauded me. The debit card charge is not a prescribed fee under the fee schedule, therefore they cannot charge this either. Therefore I would like to request for the first visit, second visit, van fee and debit card charge to be reclaimed from Goodwillie & Corcoran a total of £233.50.

 

I trust that you will give this matter your urgent attention and look forward to your response.

[munchkette]

any tips/help anyone?

[Thegreenpimpernel]

Hello munchkette,

 

I know what you mean by 'doing your head in'.

 

My 'break' has been enforced by the joys of Windows Vista (AAARRGHHH!!!!)

 

Anyway...

 

Just my opinion - but it seems you are asking the credit card company to engage in and understand legal argument. They will not do that.

 

Also by saying 'i would like to again' you are letting the recipient know that it has been declined before. They will probably read no further and say they have previously responded to your request and their position hasn't changed.

 

It's like i said before. You've got to think as if you are the customer and the bailiff is a service provider.

 

Imagine if the service provider was, lets say for sake of argument, Mr B, a tv repair man.

 

He has been to your house and then phones / writes to you asking for £100.

 

You phone his office, in good faith, trusting Mr B to charge you correctly and pay £100 by CC.

 

You subsequently find out from a neighbor that they were only charged £60, and that this price seems more in line with the fee scale the company works to.

 

e.g. 2 hours @ £25, plus a £10 part = £60.

 

You write to the TV repair man asking for a breakdown and justification.

 

If they either do not reply, or cannot explain why 25 + 25 + 10 = 100??

the CC would probably authorize a charge-back to your card.

 

i.e the fee cannot be explained using the company's published price list, and no other explanation has been forthcoming.

 

You have been overcharged.

 

I refer you to my previous suggestion as a basis for a letter.

 

Please keep up the good work and let us know what happens.

 

If the likes of you and i do not try - then who will?

[munchkette]

I thought I had worded the letter as you described - specifying that their charges do not meet the fee schedule and they have failed to justify their charges - no?? What would you change in my letter to make it better?

[Consumer dude]

This is NOT true seanamarts.

 

A bailiff does NOT need to be invited in.

 

 

 

 

 

He would as far as I was concerned and I would defend my self with what ever means that I felt reasonable..

[Thegreenpimpernel]

You're delving into 'fraud' and background story.

 

Less is best with these things. The more you write, the more opportunity you give the recipient (CC company) to say "go away and consult a solicitor."

 

I'll have to add more later (Vista permitting!) I need to go and see a customer right now - bills to pay.....

 

Take a look late tonight or tomorrow morning.

 

Cheers.

[Thegreenpimpernel]

I see the problem...

 

You have based your letter around ploddertom's template. Nothing wrong with that template, but it is based around having a crime number - that would give your legal arguments some credence to the 'layman' reading dozens of these forms a day.

 

As it stands, your letter would require the CC company to take any customer at their word that the merchant has breached section umpteeen of the so and so act - OR - they would have to seek expensive specialist legal advise on each such letter.

 

They would have to employ experts on building regs, bailiff law, the quality of wine...etc - you name a trade that takes card payments and the CC company would have to know all about it.

 

They don't do that. What they DO, is give customers a full refund when they say, for example.

 

 

Joe Bloggs Ltd sold me 10 bottles of wine at £10 each. One of them was broken. They have not responded or refunded the £10.

 

You would get the £100 back.

 

You need to write a very short concise note along the lines of my example.

 

I.e that:

 

I (you) paid ****** Ltd £xx in good faith having been assured (verbally) that the amount was in line with their published fee table.

 

Having since consulted the fee table i have found this to be incorrect.

 

Despite writing to them to request an explanation, ****** Ltd have not taken the opportunity to rectify the overpayment, nor explain its origin.

 

Consequently i request a charge-back as per section 75 of the CCA.

 

 

If your letter is much longer than that, they probably will not bother with it.

 

Do you NEED the credit card? because the 'end game' if they don't refund you, is to inform them that you will not be paying that particular portion of your credit card bill nor the associated interest and charges. That would put the ball in their court to persue you for a debt that you and i know has no basis in law.

 

In reality, they can shaft the merchant (the bailiff) as and when they feel like it (its in the T&C's they signed up to), plus it doesn't cost them anything. Chasing a debtor (you) with a genuine dispute is much harder work and more expensive.

 

I don't recommend going to Defcon 1 on your CC company just yet, but it is an option later on.

 

Edit - Just realised you paid the council direct. I don't see the difference though. The regs say its the local authority that can charge the liability order plus costs as per the Stat. Instrument. The 'merchant' is the council not the bailiff.

Edited May 5, 2010 by Thegreenpimpernel

[munchkette]

^

Thanks for that. I didn't pay the council direct I paid the bailiff via visa debit card. So sadly I can't withold payment to the card company as the money left my bank account on the day and is gone.

 

I shall reword my letter and send it off hopefully with a better result this time. Nothing would please me more than to see the money taken back from them - the b*stards!

[Thegreenpimpernel]

You might find more specific advise in other sections of the forum, there are credit / debit card anoraks out there who know more than me.

 

My experience from the world of retail is that a customer can make virtually any accertation that the goods were faulty, wrongly priced or different to their expectations and they get a refund. The card company goes with the customer every time for the reasons i stated before.

[munchkette]

OK got a letter back from the bank saying they cannot pursue a refund because visa debit cards are not covered by section 75 of the consumer credit act

 

what do I do now? do I have to apply to the court to dispute the fees and how do I go about doing that?

[Bartok]

The bank is right, not covered under CCA 1974. You are protected by Section 2 of the 2006 Fraud Act.

 

You reclaim the fees by asking the council to refund them in 14 days then file a claim at your local county court on a Form N1.

 

Work out the council tax due, add £24.50 the prescribed bailiffs fee then subtract from the amount paid and add statutory interest at 0.00022% per day from the date you paid it, to the date the claim is filed plus the number of days until Judgement.

 

The defendants are the council and the bailiff company jointly and severally. The claim will be defended right up to the day before trial where the bailiffs will settle on condition you close your case.

[munchkette]

I think you have to pay to file an N1 form right? Can I claim this back as part of my claim against the council/bailiff?

 

I am putting together a letter to the my local councillor - finally, had hoped to get some kind of reasonable response and resolution from the council but to no avail I will see what he can do and if he can assist in getting the overcharged fees refunded, failing that I will send a letter to the council requesting the fees back within 14 days.

 

This thing is dragging on for so long now. If only I could go back in time I wouldn't have answered the door to the bailiff at all and would have saved myself a LOT of trouble!