In A Bit Of a Pickle - Big Debt Advice Needed

[jimmyriddle]

Hi all,

Cut a long story short - Number of Debts as Listed Below:

Me

4900 - Barclaycard

4400 - Barclays bank loan

1600 - Egg (1st Credit)

250 - Goldfish - Now Barclaycard

6400 - MBNA

 

Wife

2200 - Barclaycard

1800 - Mint

500 - Barclays Overdraft

4300 - Halifax Credit Card

7500 - MBNA (Restons) - Now subject to Final Charging Order

 

Joint

18000 - Royal Bank Of Scotland - Subject to Interim Charging Order

100 - Barclays Bank Overdraft

900 - Barclays Bank Overdraft

 

As you can see, quite a sizeable amount in total.

 

We are currently in a DMP with Payplan who seem about as much use as a chocolate fireguard in offering advice.

 

We have been advised by the District Judge at at the Charging Order hearing to go Bankrupt as he cannot see how we could possibly repay all of our debts at the current rate (£135 via Payplan). Ideally we want to avoid bankruptcy as we have a 4 yr old and we would lose our house (so i'm lead to believe). The house is valued @ £105000 (at best) and we owe £128000 to Nortern Rock.

 

We are currently looking to explore our options and someone has mentioned a Debt Relief Order for my Wife as, if the 18000 loan is made into a final charging order, she will have less than £15k in her debts (can the Charging orders be excluded from the DRO?)

 

Wife is self employed and owns a 52 plate Saxo (val approx £1000 as has a big dent in the side we can't afford to fix) and has no excess income after meeting essential bills (my wage currently pays DMP).

 

After a bit of advice as no one is giving us any real direction.

 

In an ideal world, I wouldn't have been made redundant a year ago and had to take a job earning £11000 a year less and we wouldn't have got in this mess.

 

Any help would be great.

[robcag]

Hi JR, and welcome to CAG

 

I can't offer a huge amount of advice right now because I've got go and see someone in a few mins. but I'm sure you'll get some pretty soon

 

I've interspersed a few comments in red below;

 

Hi all,

Cut a long story short - Number of Debts as Listed Below:

Me

4900 - Barclaycard

4400 - Barclays bank loan

1600 - Egg (1st Credit)

250 - Goldfish - Now Barclaycard

6400 - MBNA

 

Wife

2200 - Barclaycard

1800 - Mint

500 - Barclays Overdraft

4300 - Halifax Credit Card

7500 - MBNA (Restons) - Now subject to Final Charging Order Can you post some details up regarding how this has come about, as this might enable people to offer advice on whether you can appeal or apply for a set aside of the judgment.

 

Joint

18000 - Royal Bank Of Scotland - Subject to Interim Charging Order As above, re: MBNA/Restons

100 - Barclays Bank Overdraft

900 - Barclays Bank Overdraft

 

As you can see, quite a sizeable amount in total. I've seen higher, my own!

 

We are currently in a DMP with Payplan who seem about as much use as a chocolate fireguard in offering advice. Probably about right with that opinion!

 

We have been advised by the District Judge at at the Charging Order hearing to go Bankrupt as he cannot see how we could possibly repay all of our debts perhaps you won't have to pay them at the current rate (£135 via Payplan). Ideally we want to avoid bankruptcy as we have a 4 yr old and we would lose our house (so i'm lead to believe). The house is valued @ £105000 (at best) and we owe £128000 to Nortern Rock.

 

We are currently looking to explore our options and someone has mentioned a Debt Relief Order for my Wife as, if the 18000 loan is made into a final charging order with the benefit of hindsight, I think I'd try and avoid that if possible (from personal experience it's likely the debt would still be sold on - possibly leading to more aggro from the new owner!), she will have less than £15k in her debts (can the Charging orders be excluded from the DRO?)

 

Wife is self employed and owns a 52 plate Saxo (val approx £1000 as has a big dent in the side we can't afford to fix) and has no excess income after meeting essential bills (my wage currently pays DMP).

 

After a bit of advice as no one is giving us any real direction.

 

In an ideal world, I wouldn't have been made redundant a year ago and had to take a job earning £11000 a year less and we wouldn't have got in this mess.

 

Any help would be great.

 

Have you CCA'd any of these creditors (asked for copies of the agreements)?

 

Have you been served with Default Notices by any of the creditors?

 

Just a few questions for starters which you will need to provide the answers to to get the right sort of help.

 

When you've expanded slightly, you may need to start individual threads for the alleged debts which you will be investigating/challenging (if any) to keep things easy to follow (both for yourself and others ).

 

Regarding the MBNA/Restons debt, it's a shame you didn't find CAG earlier because there's a good possibility you could have beaten it. Sorry to end on a downer, but that's exactly the position I found myself in - with a £10000+ charging order for an HFC/Restons judgment just before I found CAG, so you're not alone on that score!

 

Anyway, you're in the right place to hopefully get some help and make life a bit easier!

 

Cheers

Rob

 

PS

I missed the pertinent part about my HFC/Restons judgment - which was I could have beaten it if I'd defended, as I went on to win another identical HFC/Restons claim (after finding CAG) which had the same dodgy Agreement and defective Default Notice!

Edited January 28, 2010 by robcag
Added PS

[comebackjimmy]

Hi

 

What is the date of your hearing for the interim to be made final?

 

If they are very close I have got a good idea that will give you more time. (You may need this as hopefully other CAGers will come on here but the more time the better).

 

Having added everything up you have not far short of £53K of debt plus negative equity of £23K so you are £75K behind the game, so to speak unless you have any significant assets elsewhere.

 

It may be radical, and you should not undertake this in haste but maybe you should consider the district Judge's advice. If this happened you could kiss goodbye to everything and just start again. The alternative is possibly years of misery as you try to recover your position.

 

Consider why you want the house. Is it really nice or just an investment? If the latter then it is not working for you.

 

OK, it is a home for your child but your child's real home is wherever the pair of you are, and the child's home may be happier if you are not spending the next ten years dealing with debt.

 

In my opinion there is too high a premium placed on owning your own home in this country. People often feel they have been left behind or are in a minority. Too many property shows on the TV etc. So perhaps consider the real value of this house. If it is not a family heirloom then it is one of many thousands that have been built and there will be opportunities of buying another in the future if you want.

 

You will not be excluded from society just because you don't. own your own house, though it may at times feel like it.

 

Having said all the above let us not forget you are on CAG and much of your debt has the potential to be challenged, managed, reduced and eliminated.

 

As I said, do nothing in haste.

[jimmyriddle]

Thanks for all the advice Rob.

 

The MBNA Charging order makes me mad. Original CCJ set by Northampton Bulk Centre at what we were paying via Payplan. Restons applied for re-determination to forthwith. I attended the Hearing at my local CC and the judge said that The creditors were well within their rights. He ammended the CCJ to Forthwith, allowing Restons to apply for the C/o and changing paymets to as originally agreed in ccj, staying any other form of action other than the C/o as long as payments were made for the original ccj amount.

At final C/o hearing (now this makes me ultra mad) got there 20 minutes early - sat waiting for 40 minutes and still not called in to see judge (now 20 mins late) went to ask when i could expect to be seen and was told that the judge was currently hearing my case (grrrrrr) - they took me in to the room, the judge looked at me like i'd just shat in his shoes and said 'i've just heard this case and made judgement, but i suppose you should have your say (the solicitor for the other side was sat smirking).

I ststed that it would be unfair on other creditors, that the house was in alot of negative equity, that we hadn't missed any payments on the order, but the judge said that none of these were valid reasons for disallowing the C\O so he was granting it.

 

RBoS

CCJ set By Birmingham CC for £20 more han my pro rata payments. I applied for re-determintion. Attended and RBoS asked for change to forthwith - judge looked at SOA and said ' you re bankrupt in all but name, and will not clear these debts for the next 20-30 years at this rate' he allowed them to have the ccj ammended to forthwith and set payments t pro rata mount as requested by my, alowing them to apply for C/O but staying ny other action as long as payments made.

 

Not CCA'd any f my creditiors as was trying to do the 'honourable' thing and pay all debts - other than RBoS and my Wife's MBNA the other creditors have all accepted payment and not even applied for CCJ's.

 

Thanks for your comments too jimmy.

 

The reason for not going bankrupt (other than can't affor £800 for the pair of us) is the house. We're not being selfish with this.

Should we 'let the houe go' we would have to move out of our village as we would not be able to rent as there is nothing come up for rent in the lat couple of years. If we were to move out of the village, my daughter would not be eligble for the local school as we would move out of the catchmen area, and we would also have to move further away from our inlaws who act as babysitters for our daughter after she finishes school while my wife works.

[comebackjimmy]

Hi jimmyriddle

 

Understand about the house. I hope other more expert eyes will come on here and help to whittle down some of the debts. I am no great expert but will watch the thread and chip in if I think I can add something of value.

 

Right now I can give you one tip regarding the second charging order. A while ago I helped out a family member with a charging order. Here is what happened:

 

1. Interim order was granted.

2. Hearing was set.

3. Seven days before the hearing was due I faxed a defence to the other side which included the fact that they, the creditor, had not notified our other creditors of their action, who were therefore unable to object to the order.

4. The creditor applied to the court to postpone the hearing so they could do this. As a result this bought some time.

5. Ultimately we were required to produce a list of creditors all of whom had to be written to by the opposing solicitors. Some of them, the people who were friendly towards us, objected that their debt was disadvantaged.

6. The case came up again a few weeks later and the charging order was made final anyway but this maneuver bought some time.

 

I am baffled about these charging orders. There is a list of possible objections to a charging order but the judges never seem to heed them and just go ahead turning unsecured debts in to secured debts anyway!

 

I suggest you prepare a letter to the above effect and be prepared to send it but wait until seven days before the hearing so they have no time to carry out this requirement and must therefore postpone.

 

Alternatively, attend the hearing and ask the judge not to make the order final as they have not done this. It should buy you some time.

 

Please also wait for other CAGers to come on here and refine or dispute this advice, though I would think that as the main purpose is to get you some time I am not sure exactly what harm it would do you.

 

Good luck

[robcag]

Hi JR

 

Sorry if I didn't make myself clear, but what I was actually after was how the original underlying CCJs came about, not the COs.

 

Did you defend them or just admit them? - I confess to admitting to the first claim I received from HFC/Re$ton$ because I had no idea you could actually defend these things and win - before I found CAG that is (and received excellent help from pt2537 and others without which I couldn't have managed)!

 

So you need to take a few steps back and tell us the answer to the question above, and then maybe someone can suggest a way forward which might even involve eradicating the CCJ which will automatically mean the CO goes too!

 

I'm guessing that like me, you were probably out of your depth!

 

Maybe PayPlan dealt with the claim form 'on your behalf'?

 

Thanks for all the advice Rob.

 

The MBNA Charging order makes me mad. Original CCJ set by Northampton Bulk Centre at what we were paying via Payplan. Restons applied for re-determination to forthwith. I attended the Hearing at my local CC and the judge said that The creditors were well within their rights. He ammended the CCJ to Forthwith, allowing Restons to apply for the C/o and changing paymets to as originally agreed in ccj, staying any other form of action other than the C/o as long as payments were made for the original ccj amount.

At final C/o hearing (now this makes me ultra mad) got there 20 minutes early - sat waiting for 40 minutes and still not called in to see judge (now 20 mins late) went to ask when i could expect to be seen and was told that the judge was currently hearing my case (grrrrrr) - they took me in to the room, the judge looked at me like i'd just shat in his shoes and said 'i've just heard this case and made judgement, but i suppose you should have your say (the solicitor for the other side was sat smirking).

I ststed that it would be unfair on other creditors, that the house was in alot of negative equity, that we hadn't missed any payments on the order, but the judge said that none of these were valid reasons for disallowing the C\O so he was granting it.

 

RBoS

CCJ set By Birmingham CC for £20 more han my pro rata payments. I applied for re-determintion. Attended and RBoS asked for change to forthwith - judge looked at SOA and said ' you re bankrupt in all but name, and will not clear these debts for the next 20-30 years at this rate' he allowed them to have the ccj ammended to forthwith and set payments t pro rata mount as requested by my, alowing them to apply for C/O but staying ny other action as long as payments made.

 

Not CCA'd any f my creditiors as was trying to do the 'honourable' thing and pay all debts that was my intention in the beginning, thinking that I could keep them at bay by paying token amounts, plus the fact I didn't know about CCA'ing them in my pre-CAG days - other than RBoS and my Wife's MBNA the other creditors have all accepted payment and not even applied for CCJ's maybe for the time being, but it's quite likely that things could change at some time in the future.

 

Thanks for your comments too jimmy.

 

The reason for not going bankrupt (other than can't affor £800 for the pair of us) is the house. We're not being selfish with this.

Should we 'let the houe go' we would have to move out of our village as we would not be able to rent as there is nothing come up for rent in the lat couple of years. If we were to move out of the village, my daughter would not be eligble for the local school as we would move out of the catchmen area, and we would also have to move further away from our inlaws who act as babysitters for our daughter after she finishes school while my wife works.

 

IMHO, depending on when you took out the credit cards and loans (generally, the older the better), I think the first thing you ought to do should be to CCA the remaining creditors, possibly using the template found on this site, do not sign the letter with your usual signature (to prevent a Blue Peter Agreement being concocted). Enclose a £1 Postal Order (therefore no signature revealed) for each request, and send at least Recorded Delivery (multiple requests to the same creditor can probably go in the same envelope, although still need £1 fee each).

 

Whilst CCA'ing creditors might not produce the desired results (e.g. they will quite possibly send a 'true copy' which they are entitled to do, which will not allow you to decide if they have an enforceable agreement in place, or they may send a copy of an enforceable agreement - more likely with newer agreements), it is probably a good first step.

 

At this stage, again depending on the age of the accounts, you might like to start thinking of them as 'alleged' debts.

 

Also, as I asked above, have you received any Default Notices from your creditors?

 

You should always keep these safe as they can be the downfall of any creditor who takes you to court. Always keep the envelopes that correspondence arrives in (if you haven't done this in the past, do so from now on!).

 

Basically we need some more info from you to pad out the details of each account to see what the options are.

 

Cheers

Rob

Edited January 30, 2010 by robcag
Punctuation

[Mistermind]

I am baffled about these charging orders. There is a list of possible objections to a charging order but the judges never seem to heed them and just go ahead turning unsecured debts in to secured debts anyway!

 

For a secured debt collateral is safeguarded before any default occurs, such as when a house deed is kept in the bank manager's safe.

 

An unsecured debt could be turned into a secured debt retrospectively, but only if the judge grants the charge order, and only if the debtor does not leave the UK and the jurisdiction of civil courts.

 

However even with a secured debt the creditor may not be paid, as in the case of general default the Inland Revenue has priority claims on assets ahead of creditors.

[comebackjimmy]

Thanks Mistermind

 

I guess my comment was just huff and puff. It didn't really advance the thread any.