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    • Thank you for posting up the results from the sar. The PCN is not compliant with the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 Schedule 4. Under Section 9 [2][a] they are supposed to specify the parking time. the photographs show your car in motion both entering and leaving the car park thus not parking. If you have to do a Witness Statement later should they finally take you to Court you will have to continue to state that even though you stayed there for several hours in a small car park and the difference between the ANPR times and the actual parking period may only be a matter of a few minutes  nevertheless the CEL have failed to comply with the Act by failing to specify the parking period. However it looks as if your appeal revealed you were the driver the deficient PCN will not help you as the driver. I suspect that it may have been an appeal from the pub that meant that CEL offered you partly a way out  by allowing you to claim you had made an error in registering your vehicle reg. number . This enabled them to reduce the charge to £20 despite them acknowledging that you hadn't registered at all. We have not seen the signs in the car park yet so we do not what is said on them and all the signs say the same thing. It would be unusual for a pub to have  a Permit Holders Only sign which may discourage casual motorists from stopping there. But if that is the sign then as it prohibits any one who doesn't have a permit, then it cannot form a contract with motorists though it may depend on how the signs are worded.
    • Defence and Counterclaim Claim number XXX Claimant Civil Enforcement Limited Defendant XXXXXXXXXXXXX   How much of the claim do you dispute? I dispute the full amount claimed as shown on the claim form.   Do you dispute this claim because you have already paid it? No, for other reasons.   Defence 1. The Defendant is the recorded keeper of XXXXXXX  2. It is denied that the Defendant entered into a contract with the Claimant. 3. As held by the Upper Tax Tribunal in Vehicle Control Services Limited v HMRC [2012] UKUT 129 (TCC), any contract requires offer and acceptance. The Claimant was simply contracted by the landowner to provide car-park management services and is not capable of entering into a contract with the Defendant on its own account, as the car park is owned by and the terms of entry set by the landowner. Accordingly, it is denied that the Claimant has authority to bring this claim. 4. In any case it is denied that the Defendant broke the terms of a contract with the Claimant. 5. The Claimant is attempting double recovery by adding an additional sum not included in the original offer. 6. In a further abuse of the legal process the Claimant is claiming £50 legal representative's costs, even though they have no legal representative. 7. The Particulars of Claim is denied in its entirety. It is denied that the Claimant is entitled to the relief claimed or any relief at all. Signed I am the Defendant - I believe that the facts stated in this form are true XXXXXXXXXXX 01/05/2024   Defendant's date of birth XXXXXXXXXX   Address to which notices about this claim can be sent to you  
    • pop up on the bulk court website detailed on the claimform. [if it is not working return after the w/end or the next day if week time] . When you select ‘Register’, you will be taken to a screen titled ‘Sign in using Government Gateway’.  Choose ‘Create sign in details’ to register for the first time.  You will be asked to provide your name, email address, set a password and a memorable recovery word. You will be emailed your Government Gateway 12-digit User ID.  You should make a note of your memorable word, or password as these are not included in the email.<<**IMPORTANT**  then log in to the bulk court Website .  select respond to a claim and select the start AOS box. .  then using the details required from the claimform . defend all leave jurisdiction unticked  you DO NOT file a defence at this time [BUT you MUST file a defence regardless by day 33 ] click thru to the end confirm and exit the website .get a CPR 31:14 request running to the solicitors https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?486334-CPR-31.14-Request-to-use-on-receipt-of-a-PPC-(-Private-Land-Parking-Court-Claim type your name ONLY no need to sign anything .you DO NOT await the return of paperwork. you MUST file a defence regardless by day 33 from the date on the claimform.
    • well post it here as a text in a the msg reply half of it is blanked out. dx  
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      OT APPROVED, 365MC637, FAROOQ, EVRi, 12.07.23 (BRENT) - J v4.pdf
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I GIVE UP!!!!!!!

It was adjourned AGAIN! SOOOOOO frustrating!

I have to admit, I was a bit nervous this time (wasn't the two times before!)

Anyway...........guess you are all dying to know what happened?

The Witness Statement was 'ummed and 'arhhed about by the Claimants barrister. Reckons he only received it 45 mins before he turned up for the hearing. Said he read it in an internet cafe. Judge seemed a pretty much ok bloke and allowed the Claimant to go out of the Court to read for 15 mins. I had to go out too. DJ was rather stern with him and hinted the outcome might not be what the barrister expected (DJ had been reading my WS). He didn't refer to my newest WS but thought it was fair to allow it as the claimant was on their fifth WS and I only on my third. That was a relief as I had worked so hard on it. A bit of a moan and groan re the 29 paragraphs, but all relevant.When we came back in barrister was first off the mark, and Christ could he babble on. I couldn't kep up with him.....steam coming out of my pencil, darting from my second then third WS. He managed to cover just the points he wanted but mainly referref to the second WS and not my third. As my luck would have it, I didn't get a chance to say anything! BRANDON was mentioned.....and that was it, I had to spout out it was under appeal. Barrister pretended he wasn't aware of that!! Didn't fool me though. Of course he knew. So the judge asked me about the appeal....asking if it was an application for appeal or appeal. I told him I had been following the listings and said it was application for appeal, but now just appeal and that it was floating for 12/13th July. I mentioned Harrison being the more recent authority.........he wasn't interested. He said he would do the 'just' thing and we would have to wait on the outcome of Brandon. Oh and once we knew it either party could apply to have the case relisted! Then he decided I should do it! Barrister then brought up costs....what a little love he is..........mentioned that I was awarded the costs at the last hearing. Therefore the lovely judge ordered that I pay £300 plus VAT in 30 days for the barrister's fees!!!! I informed him I didn't have £300, so he said the best he could do was allow me to pay it in 56 days!!........fuming............still fuming now:-x There you go,that's lovely justice for ya!!:x

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Sorry SB can understand your frustration having been in court myself last week. Seems more and more leniency being shown to the creditors. Well done so far, at least you put up a good case but I know how you feel - after this length of time you feel at though you do deserve some outcome. Keep us posted P

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I GIVE UP!!!!!!!

It was adjourned AGAIN! SOOOOOO frustrating!

I have to admit, I was a bit nervous this time (wasn't the two times before!)

Anyway...........guess you are all dying to know what happened?

The Witness Statement was 'ummed and 'arhhed about by the Claimants barrister. Reckons he only received it 45 mins before he turned up for the hearing. Said he read it in an internet cafe. Judge seemed a pretty much ok bloke and allowed the Claimant to go out of the Court to read for 15 mins. I had to go out too. DJ was rather stern with him and hinted the outcome might not be what the barrister expected (DJ had been reading my WS). He didn't refer to my newest WS but thought it was fair to allow it as the claimant was on their fifth WS and I only on my third. That was a relief as I had worked so hard on it. A bit of a moan and groan re the 29 paragraphs, but all relevant.When we came back in barrister was first off the mark, and Christ could he babble on. I couldn't kep up with him.....steam coming out of my pencil, darting from my second then third WS. He managed to cover just the points he wanted but mainly referref to the second WS and not my third. As my luck would have it, I didn't get a chance to say anything! BRANDON was mentioned.....and that was it, I had to spout out it was under appeal. Barrister pretended he wasn't aware of that!! Didn't fool me though. Of course he knew. So the judge asked me about the appeal....asking if it was an application for appeal or appeal. I told him I had been following the listings and said it was application for appeal, but now just appeal and that it was floating for 12/13th July. I mentioned Harrison being the more recent authority.........he wasn't interested. He said he would do the 'just' thing and we would have to wait on the outcome of Brandon. Oh and once we knew it either party could apply to have the case relisted! Then he decided I should do it! Barrister then brought up costs....what a little love he is..........mentioned that I was awarded the costs at the last hearing. Therefore the lovely judge ordered that I pay £300 plus VAT in 30 days for the barrister's fees!!!! I informed him I didn't have £300, so he said the best he could do was allow me to pay it in 56 days!!........fuming............still fuming now:-x There you go,that's lovely justice for ya!!:x

 

Good evening Mrs SB

 

BRANDON is irrelevant to these proceedings. Harrison is also irrelevant (but do not let that worry you). The Barrister would not want to refer to your amended WS for obvious reasons (clearly, from your above comments, the DJ realized that you did indeed have a defence that undermines the claim). I wonder why costs were not carried over until the claim was proved?:-)

 

Kind regards

 

The Mould

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Onwards and upwards though eh? Odd to bang you with forthwith type costs when he's pulled it pending another 'related' case. Still, if Brandon is exposed for what it is all the better, if it's not then ignore it and run with your later argument. Costs aside a positive outcome so far.

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Just popping on to see the new posts.....took a few days away with anything to do with law!! Fuming still to be quite honest. I don't understand Court etiquette. The barrister seemed to get what he wanted to get across and I was jotting points down to come back to him on......but my time didn't seem to come!! Forgot to mention on my last post re court, the barrister and I had a chat after we got outside the court room. He said not to be surprised if shoos got in touch re a settlement. When we had come outside during our hearing time, the barrister made a call to shoos. He had tried to get me to go back into the court room, but I stayed around and tried to hear what he was saying. I knew he was discussing what had happened re the latest ws of mine, but didn't quite hear what he was saying in his whispering!

I have been thinking it might be best if I get my own barrister for the day. I think I have a very good case backed with evidence re the emails I found and the court have allowed the ws with attached emails to be used next time. My defence isn't just about the bad default notice, that is relatively a new issue. Keep in mind I have an embarrassed defence with 3 WS added to that. This guy said his charge for each hearing is £300 plus VAT, then I must be able to get one for similar sort of money. I honestly don't think a LiP has a good chance as he/she would if a barrister presented the case for them. Any one got any views on this? My family and a friend said they would help with the cost for one. Also can you just swop from representing yourself to getting representation if needed?

SB

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You can swap.

You could look up direct access barristers in your area and ask if they specialise in the CCA.

Alternatively ring local chambers, see if they do direct access and CCA. I did this before I went to court with Rob Way and sent WS etc. They came back with a price but said that as it was SC (and I wouldn't get my costs) plus all the preparation that I had done they thought that I could do it myself. I did and luckily the DJ knew the law.

However if I was going to my other local court I would do my best to find a direct access barrister!

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You can swap.

You could look up direct access barristers in your area and ask if they specialise in the CCA.

Alternatively ring local chambers, see if they do direct access and CCA. I did this before I went to court with Rob Way and sent WS etc. They came back with a price but said that as it was SC (and I wouldn't get my costs) plus all the preparation that I had done they thought that I could do it myself. I did and luckily the DJ knew the law.

However if I was going to my other local court I would do my best to find a direct access barrister!

 

Thanks for that Cymruambyth.........I am going to look into it. There is no harm making enquiries. You say they came back with a price but said that it was SC????? What is SC??

SB:???:

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Sorry SC = small claims court

 

 

" except for the court fees and fixed costs the other side cannot recover their legal costs (the maximum is about £300-£500). Similarly if you paid for representation and won you could not recover it either. Given the fairly small sum we are talking about therefore it may not be financially viable for you"

 

Hope this helps.

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Just popping on to see the new posts.....took a few days away with anything to do with law!! Fuming still to be quite honest. I don't understand Court etiquette. The barrister seemed to get what he wanted to get across and I was jotting points down to come back to him on......but my time didn't seem to come!! Forgot to mention on my last post re court, the barrister and I had a chat after we got outside the court room. He said not to be surprised if shoos got in touch re a settlement. When we had come outside during our hearing time, the barrister made a call to shoos. He had tried to get me to go back into the court room, but I stayed around and tried to hear what he was saying. I knew he was discussing what had happened re the latest ws of mine, but didn't quite hear what he was saying in his whispering!

I have been thinking it might be best if I get my own barrister for the day. I think I have a very good case backed with evidence re the emails I found and the court have allowed the ws with attached emails to be used next time. My defence isn't just about the bad default notice, that is relatively a new issue. Keep in mind I have an embarrassed defence with 3 WS added to that. This guy said his charge for each hearing is £300 plus VAT, then I must be able to get one for similar sort of money. I honestly don't think a LiP has a good chance as he/she would if a barrister presented the case for them. Any one got any views on this? My family and a friend said they would help with the cost for one. Also can you just swop from representing yourself to getting representation if needed?

SB

 

Good evening Mrs SB

 

If the claimant offers to discontinue, then you should accept on the condition that he do pay your costs in defending the claim. You are not liable for his costs since there was no case to answer.

 

Can you please remind me of how much is remaining on the account and what amount you are still paying each month towards the debt.

 

Don't worry about finding council to represent you, you simply do not need legal representation.

 

Straight forward case of variation in the contract as to your obligation to make the required monthly payments, you have not defaulted upon said obligation and so the claimant has no case against you.

 

Kind regards

 

The Mould

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  • 3 weeks later...

Hi Mr Mould,

 

I still haven't heard from the cobblers or the court re the order from the last hearing. I am lost as to what is owed on either accounts (loan/overdraft) but if you recall, they had chosen to use the CTC payments towards the OD, which means nothing off the loan.

 

I feel I do need to be represented and have located a barrister; although I have not contacted him yet. I have to wait for the Brandon case to be heard which is floating for the 12th/13th July. Then I have to call the court to have this case relisted. The judge said he would decide this case on the Brandon outcome. I have to pay the costs for one of the hearings which was an order at the last hearing, but have not had the court order through yet. This is to include VAT. I am unsure if Brandon has any chance of success with his appeal. Would appreciate anyone's views on this or any updates as to where he is at with it all!

 

The last hearing had me totally lost as I didn't get a chance to put my case across untill the DJ had already decided the way forward. I feel I would be better off with a barrister as I felt intimidated and out of my depth!

 

Regards,

 

SB.

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  • 3 months later...

Have been reading through my thread to refresh my memory as it has been a long time since my last post. Now that Mr B has won his appeal, my case can now proceed and an application to have my case relisted is to be made.

Mr B's appeal has gone in my favour, which means that the bad DN in my case should be looked at as BAD. I still have all sorts of questions floating around in my head as where that actually leaves me in this instance. So now the DJ will have to also accept that it is a 'bad DN' and act accordingly. The application of the OC to have the stay lifted and have a summary judgement brought against me should not be granted by the court. However, what happens next?

 

SB

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Have been reading through my thread to refresh my memory as it has been a long time since my last post. Now that Mr B has won his appeal, my case can now proceed and an application to have my case relisted is to be made.

Mr B's appeal has gone in my favour, which means that the bad DN in my case should be looked at as BAD. I still have all sorts of questions floating around in my head as where that actually leaves me in this instance. So now the DJ will have to also accept that it is a 'bad DN' and act accordingly. The application of the OC to have the stay lifted and have a summary judgement brought against me should not be granted by the court. However, what happens next?

 

SB

 

If the stay is lifted but the summary judgement not granted then it goes to trial as normal I would imagine.

 

S.

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don't recall the initials atm. but, accepting a 'termination' re the so called 'unlawful rescission' argument that has previously been expounded would not be a way forward. if they have terminated, then there is no need to 'accept' it.

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Ah thank you Ford. They say they have terminated....documented on their WS's. As we are in the process of court action, then yes they must have terminated, or we wouldn't be at court! But I thought as I haven't officially accepted the termination in writing.....just assuming that that is the case, I thought it might be of benefit to accept in writing. However, after reading what you say above, guess that move would not be the right way forward after all!

 

Thank you :-)

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if they have terminated, then why the need to 'accept'? they have terminated!

agreements are usually ended once they demand the full amount outstanding, or say so, and by following the correct cca procedure. an agreement provides that the full amount is payable once it is ended. they go to court to try and enforce this by way of specific performance.

Edited by Ford
typo
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Whoa!!!

 

hold on a second...WHERE have I been.???

 

Mr Brandon has won appeal ???

 

where can I find case and what were the issues and how does this affect de-minimus which is what those DJ's was expounding..

 

...and does this mean that those who lost because of de-minimus should now appeal????????

 

rgds

m2ae

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It would appear that the DE-MINIMUS rule has been BUSTED!!!

 

And also..

 

It appears that alternative pleadings of Default and Non-Default terminations are allowed provided it is done so early enough and NOT as late as it was in this case on APPEALS....

 

I have only skimmed read but if I am wrong I am sure that Iwill be humbly corrected!!!

 

nm2ae

Edited by means2anend
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