Unenforceable Bank Loan Agreements

[Msafiri]

Very excited to find this group hopefully I may get rid of the loan I have.

I took a loan (£7,500) from a bank in April 2007 and I have paid back some of the money. After reading and researching I found out I can easly ... or may be not get away from it.

Now here I am, asking for help on how to claim or seek a declaration from the court that my loan agreements are unenforceable. I want to deal with the issue by myself because I cant afford to have a solicitor as I depend on job seeker allowance and my wife working only 25 hours a week.

Thanks in advance.

[socleirigh]

What date in April 07 did you take out the loan. If it's before 6th April and the loan agreement does not have all the prescribed terms, then yes it may be unenforceable. But it can be a bit tricky dealing with lenders and there are cases ongoing in the High Court that may have a bearing on your unenforceability claim

[means2anend]

just subbing

 

 

 

means2anend

[Msafiri]

Ok at last I found the agreement letter which dated 3rd March 2007, I found also the insurance policy cancellation letter to inform me about my cancellation dated 2nd April 2007; I have been told that I can cancel it after first payment. The agreement has the heading: Fixed:sum loan agreement regulated by Consumer Credit Act 1974 with 4 section of very small prints that include terms and condition.

Any help I can get from this and where to start?

[maroondevo52]

Hi,

 

This 'link' will help..............

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/105315-my-agreement-enforceable-useful.html

 

Regards.

 

Scott.

[Msafiri]

Thanks for the link given by Maroondevo52! But how come this can be true? I mean it seems to me that the Natwest had it right.

This is the agreement I quote somehow exactly because I want to 100% sure of what I am understanding:

KEY FINANTIAL INFO

Amount & purpose of loan: £7500

Term: 60 Months

Total amount payable: £9,345

Installment repayment: Repayments due monthly intervals from the date the loan was

drawn but where you elected…… the repayment are follows:

60 repayments of £mount.

Annual percentage: 9.4%

OTHER FINANTIAL INFORMATION

Total Charges: £1.845

Annual rate of interest: The amount of interest payable is calculated of the beginning of

agreement is equivalent to a fixed rate of 9.02% over the term

KEY INFORMATION

Charges on default: (Explained)

Right to Settle early: (Explained)

NB No signature

 

[IdaInFife]

i have moved your thread to the natwest forum,

[means2anend]

Thanks for the link given by Maroondevo52! But how come this can be true? I mean it seems to me that the Natwest had it right.

This is the agreement I quote somehow exactly because I want to 100% sure of what I am understanding:

KEY FINANTIAL INFO

Amount & purpose of loan: £7500

Term: 60 Months

Total amount payable: £9,345

Installment repayment: Repayments due monthly intervals from the date the loan was

drawn but where you elected…… the repayment are follows:

60 repayments of £mount.

Annual percentage: 9.4% has this got fixed or variable written after it?

OTHER FINANTIAL INFORMATION

Total Charges: £1.845 Is there a breakdown of these charges in terms of their 'constituent elements ? Does it include an arrangement or administrative or even a brokers' fee.Have they stated that a commission was paid to a broker for arranging this loan if this is the case.Is there a provision on the agreement for you to CHOOSE to purchase PPI,Is it TRULY OPTIONAL on a PROPER CONSTRUCTION of the agreement? IF NOT THEN YOU MAY HAVE BEEN MIS-SOLD THE POLICY AND THE WAY TO GO IS UNFAIR PRACTICE.LOOK INTO YOUR PERSONAL CIRCUMSTANCES AT TIME YOU TOOK OUT PPI.WAS IT THE SITUATION THAT YOU COULD NEVER HAVE BEEN PAID OUT ON THAT POLICY IF AND WHEN THE TIME AROSE IN THE FUTURE.IF SO IT IS AGAIN PROBABLE THAT IT WAS A USELESS POLICY.AND IF YOUR LOAN WAS CONDITIONAL UPON IT THEN THAT MAY BE WRITTEN OFF TOO.ALSO MAKE SURE THAT IF THE POLICY IS OPTIONAL( in the sense that you have taken it out with a different provider) IT IS NOT INCLUDED IN THE TOTAL CHARGE FOR CREDIT AS IT DOES NOT COME UNDER THE MAIN AGREEMENT. IT SHOULD NOT THEREFORE BE INCLUDED IN THE TOTAL CHARGE FOR CREDIT as it is NOT an ELEMENT OF THE COST OF THE LOAN but a separate premium.

Annual rate of interest: The amount of interest payable is calculated of the beginning of

agreement is equivalent to a fixed rate of 9.02% over the term

KEY INFORMATION

Charges on default: (Explained)

Right to Settle early: (Explained)

NB No signature THIS IS IRRELEVANT/DOES NOT MATTER ON YOUR OWN COPY

 

N.B HAVE THEY STATED THAT THE APR ASSUMES NO VARIATION.IF NOT THEN IT SHOULD BE VARIABLE AND STATED TO BE SO.

DOES THE AGREEMENT HAVE YOUR NAME

 

If at the time of the agreement this was your COPY for your own keep...then there needs to be NO signature..ONLY on the one you SENT BACK to them...this would satisfy the requirement in s61(1)...IF there is NO signature ALSO on the one you sent back...THEN it has not been properly executed according to s61(1) and can only be enforced through Courts by courtesy of section 65.

 

The powers of the court are contained in s127

 

IF your agreement was made AFTER the repeal of s127(3) then unless there has been no prejudice to you even IF there are prescribed terms missing it may still be enforceable under 127(1)...This is because the Court's now have a DISCRETION to enforce whereas before they were BOUND not to.

 

Agreements made before the repeal and in which there ''is a sum that is or may or will become payable'' before and at the time and after the repeal will still be able to call upon the protection under s127(3)

 

Your agreement will be regulated by both Consumer Credit Agreement Regulations 1983 SI 1553 AND Consumer Credit Agreements (Amendments) Regulations 2004 And Consumer Credit( Notices of Cancellation and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983

in relation to FORM AND CONTENT of Agreements. These regulations tell you what MUST be included in the agreements AND what information can be omitted under the powers given to Secretary of State under s180 Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

Look up into your message I have highlighted ''WHAT YOU SHOULD BE LOOKING FOR''

 

LOOK FIRSTLY TO CCA 1974.

 

AS YOURS IS A RELATIVELY RECENT AGREEMENT THE LEGAL DRAUGHTSMEN SHALL HAVE LEARNT BY NOW FROM THEIR PREVIOUS MISTAKES.DO NOT BE SURPRISED THAT YOUR AGREEMENT IS FIT FOR PURPOSE.

 

THE OLDER THE AGREEMENT THE MORE LATITUDE EXISTS FOR NON-COMPLIANT COPIES.

 

 

m2ae:cool:

Edited February 9, 2010 by means2anend
correction of 'will' to 'may' in 3rd paragraph

[means2anend]

i have moved your thread to the natwest forum,

 

 

IdaInFife

 

Could you possibly move my response to Nat West Forum in order that Msafari can benefit from it.I only just realised AFTER posting my response that you had in fact moved him to other thread otherwise s/he will not see my advice..ONLY IF THAT IS NECESSARY.

 

many thanks

 

m2ae

Edited February 9, 2010 by means2anend

[IdaInFife]

when they come back they will see your response

[means2anend]

when they come back they will see your response

 

 

Thank You

 

 

rgds

 

m2ae

[tedney]

subbing thanks

[Msafiri]

If at the time of the agreement this was your COPY for your own keep...then there needs to be NO signature..ONLY on the one you SENT BACK to them...this would satisfy the requirement in s61(1)...IF there is NO signature ALSO on the one you sent back...THEN it has not been properly executed according to s61(1) and can only be enforced through Courts by courtesy of section 65.

 

The powers of the court are contained in s127

 

IF your agreement was made AFTER the repeal of s127(3) then unless there has been no prejudice to you even IF there are prescribed terms missing it may still be enforceable under 127(1)...This is because the Court's now have a DISCRETION to enforce whereas before they were BOUND not to.

 

Agreements made before the repeal and in which there ''is a sum that is or may or will become payable'' before and at the time and after the repeal will still be able to call upon the protection under s127(3)

 

Your agreement will be regulated by both Consumer Credit Agreement Regulations 1983 SI 1553 AND Consumer Credit Agreements (Amendments) Regulations 2004 And Consumer Credit( Notices of Cancellation and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983

in relation to FORM AND CONTENT of Agreements. These regulations tell you what MUST be included in the agreements AND what information can be omitted under the powers given to Secretary of State under s180 Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

Look up into your message I have highlighted ''WHAT YOU SHOULD BE LOOKING FOR''

 

LOOK FIRSTLY TO CCA 1974.

 

AS YOURS IS A RELATIVELY RECENT AGREEMENT THE LEGAL DRAUGHTSMEN SHALL HAVE LEARNT BY NOW FROM THEIR PREVIOUS MISTAKES.DO NOT BE SURPRISED THAT YOUR AGREEMENT IS FIT FOR PURPOSE.

 

THE OLDER THE AGREEMENT THE MORE LATITUDE EXISTS FOR NON-COMPLIANT COPIES.

 

 

m2ae:cool:

 

Is there a breakdown of these charges in terms of their 'constituent elements ? There is no any break down regarding the Total Charges of £1.845

Does it include an arrangement or administrative or even a brokers' fee. No arrangements or broker fees which am aware of. Have they stated that a commission was paid to a broker for arranging this loan if this is the case. No statement about fees paid to the brokers. Is there a provision on the agreement for you to CHOOSE to purchase PPI,Is it TRULY OPTIONAL on a PROPER CONSTRUCTION of the agreement? The PPI: I was just told it’s compulsory to take otherwise I will not be given the loan. The loan advisor told me that I can take it and drop it after one month. IF NOT THEN YOU MAY HAVE BEEN MIS-SOLD THE POLICY AND THE WAY TO GO IS UNFAIR PRACTICE.LOOK INTO YOUR PERSONAL CIRCUMSTANCES AT TIME YOU TOOK OUT PPI.WAS IT THE SITUATION THAT YOU COULD NEVER HAVE BEEN PAID OUT ON THAT POLICY IF AND WHEN THE TIME AROSE IN THE FUTURE. My circumstance that time I was doing agency works with no future to have permanent post but they cook it up so that the loan will be easily accepted. IF SO IT IS AGAIN PROBABLE THAT IT WAS A USELESS POLICY.AND IF YOUR LOAN WAS CONDITIONAL UPON IT THEN THAT MAY BE WRITTEN OFF TOO.ALSO MAKE SURE THAT IF THE POLICY IS OPTIONAL( in the sense that you have taken it out with a different provider) IT IS NOT INCLUDED IN THE TOTAL CHARGE FOR CREDIT AS IT DOES NOT COME UNDER THE MAIN AGREEMENT. IT SHOULD NOT THEREFORE BE INCLUDED IN THE TOTAL CHARGE FOR CREDIT as it is NOT an ELEMENT OF THE COST OF THE LOAN but a separate premium.

[means2anend]

Is there a breakdown of these charges in terms of their 'constituent elements ? There is no any break down regarding the Total Charges of £1.845

Does it include an arrangement or administrative or even a brokers' fee. No arrangements or broker fees which am aware of. Have they stated that a commission was paid to a broker for arranging this loan if this is the case. No statement about fees paid to the brokers. Is there a provision on the agreement for you to CHOOSE to purchase PPI,Is it TRULY OPTIONAL on a PROPER CONSTRUCTION of the agreement? The PPI: I was just told it’s compulsory to take otherwise I will not be given the loan. The loan advisor told me that I can take it and drop it after one month. IF NOT THEN YOU MAY HAVE BEEN MIS-SOLD THE POLICY AND THE WAY TO GO IS UNFAIR PRACTICE.LOOK INTO YOUR PERSONAL CIRCUMSTANCES AT TIME YOU TOOK OUT PPI.WAS IT THE SITUATION THAT YOU COULD NEVER HAVE BEEN PAID OUT ON THAT POLICY IF AND WHEN THE TIME AROSE IN THE FUTURE. My circumstance that time I was doing agency works with no future to have permanent post but they cook it up so that the loan will be easily accepted. IF SO IT IS AGAIN PROBABLE THAT IT WAS A USELESS POLICY.AND IF YOUR LOAN WAS CONDITIONAL UPON IT THEN THAT MAY BE WRITTEN OFF TOO.ALSO MAKE SURE THAT IF THE POLICY IS OPTIONAL( in the sense that you have taken it out with a different provider) IT IS NOT INCLUDED IN THE TOTAL CHARGE FOR CREDIT AS IT DOES NOT COME UNDER THE MAIN AGREEMENT. IT SHOULD NOT THEREFORE BE INCLUDED IN THE TOTAL CHARGE FOR CREDIT as it is NOT an ELEMENT OF THE COST OF THE LOAN but a separate premium.

 

 

Does your APR have fixed or variable written after it?-If not then these are prescribed terms that are missing from the agreement.

 

Find the EXACT date of your agreement.

yOU SHOULD BRING YOU COMPLAINT UNDER s140a CCA 1974 INSERTED BY s19 cca 2006 unfair relationship.

 

yOU SAID THAT YOU WERE NOT ENTITLED TO THE LOAN unless YOU ALSO TOOK OUT THE INSURANCE POLICY FROM THEM.

 

yOU HAD NO FREEDOM TO CHOOSE AND IF YOU ALLEGE THIS THE burden IS ON THEM To prove they did not do this.

 

iF YOU GO THIS ROUTE YOU WILL HAVE more chance of rescinding your contractual obligations AND write off THE REMAING DEBIT BALANCE.

 

iF YOU GO DOWN THE PRESCRIBED TERM ROUTE you WILL NEED TO SHOW THAT YOU SUFFERED PREJUDICE...BECAUSE IT APPEARS YOUR AGREEMENT WAS MADE AFTER REPEAL OF S127(3).

 

My ADVICE IS TO WRITE A LETTER UNDER S140A CCA 1974 and in your own words put in that letter what u c up there in red...but check your agreement again!!!

 

m2ae

Edited February 10, 2010 by means2anend

[Msafiri]

Thanx Means2anend

The APR does not have fixed or variable written after it the only fixed word can be seen on the heading:Fixed - sum loan agreement regulated by CCA 1974 if this will have an impact.

Otherwise I will follow your advise to write. Question is to whom I have to write?

[means2anend]

Write to both the Original Lender AND any company that has/or purchased that debt from your lender.The same argument applies to both.BUT DO THIS LATER...see below first step to take.

 

Do a little test and see if the copy they send you matches the one you have.This could expose fraud and help the many of us out there to KNOW exactly that this is rife in the industry.

 

Send a section 77 request under Consumer Credit Act 1974 and pay them £1.00 postal order for the charge.

 

Do this FIRST before you write to them ABOUT PRESCRIBED TERMS.

 

When you receive the copy they send you see if there are any material differences in that copy and the one you have now.This will give us all an insight into the probability that they have problems re-constituting agreements even as recent as yours.

 

Then post your experience on this thread and I will get back to you.BUT do in these steps first.

 

m2ae

[Msafiri]

Appreciate that!

But I started to pay £1 by outstanding order (one payment done start 1st of every month) but the did ask me that we never set any payment arrangement. After exchanging of words and them insisting that they don't accept a £1 settlement the lady hanged up the phone before telling me that they are going to take further steps. So do you think is still worth it sending them a post order and see their reaction?

[means2anend]

Appreciate that!

But I started to pay £1 by outstanding order (one payment done start 1st of every month) but the did ask me that we never set any payment arrangement. After exchanging of words and them insisting that they don't accept a £1 settlement the lady hanged up the phone before telling me that they are going to take further steps. So do you think is still worth it sending them a post order and see their reaction?

 

 

 

No Msafiri

 

I think you misunderstand me.I did not say that you OFFER them £1.00 a month minimum payment (heee! heee!) every month.I am not talking about payment arrangements.

 

I said put in a section 77 consumer credit act 1974 request for a copy of the agreement.Let them send a copy and we see if that copy matches copy you already have.This is a totally different thing.It has been 2 yrs since the agreement was made it would be interesting to see if the copy they send you matches your copy that you have in your possession.

 

Then we take it from there. READ s77 you will understand what I mean.We may be able to temporarily suspend activity on your account giving us time for your next move.It appears as you have nothing to lose now as they are probably already reporting you to CRA.

 

Take your personal details out of your copy agreement and post the agreement up on this thread.I will be better able to look at the terms and can advise you more accurately.BUT leave your name/address/account details off.

 

use this link it's easy

 

http://www.photobucket.com

 

Scan the agreement into your computer then edit your personal details then upload image from your computer edit it before you upload it to this thread.You may need to register before you can use it but it is simple and FREE.

 

m2ae

Edited February 11, 2010 by means2anend

[Msafiri]

There you have it hopefully will be a window to see the big picture.

agreement1.jpg picture by msafiri_2010 - Photobucket

It has very small letters but its better when you save image, open and zoom.

[means2anend]

I have looked at your agreement?

 

If that is the ONLY page then WHERE is THE NOTICE OF CANCELLATION....

 

It should begin with something like 'YOUR RIGHTS TO CANCEL' and then tell you what and how and who to take the written notice of cancellation to???

 

Also if they told you to take out the insurance where is that Information on the page .

 

I am gonna check to see whether your agreement after APR 9.4% must state fixed or variable.Get back on Sunday.

 

I need to know the circumstances of how you got interested in this loan and where you signed the unexecuted agreement for example at home ,on trade premises etc... and what sort of discussions you had and with who and how did you learn of this loan.I need to ascertain whether this is in fact a cancellable agreement OR not.

 

m2ae

Edited February 12, 2010 by means2anend

[Msafiri]

---Deleted---

Edited February 13, 2010 by Msafiri

[means2anend]

Msafiri can you get rid of all that CRAP!!! it makes reading your post difficult.

 

Getting back to the point.Upgrading is not wrong in itself.It is only when you HAVE TO TAKE OUT INSURANCE POLICY WITH THEM in order to take the loan that there may be a problem.

 

The terms and conditions of the insurance must be that if you DID become SICK,UNEMPLOYED,DEATH (God Forbid) and THEN you COULD NOT CLAIM ON THAT POLICY then you were mis-sold.AND THEN THE LOAN CAN BE WRITTEN OFF AS WELL BECAUSE IT WAS CONDITIONAL.

 

Also if your circumstances at the time that you took out the policy were that you were not really eligible to take out that policy then that also means you have been mis-sold.

 

You need to PROVIDE EVIDENCE THOUGH.

 

Anyway I cannot help you anymore UNTIL YOU YOURSELF START PUTTING INTO PRACTICE WHAT WE HAVE DISCUSSED!!!

 

m2ae

[means2anend]

Msafiri can you get rid of all that CRAP!!! it makes reading your post difficult.

 

Getting back to the point.Upgrading is not wrong in itself.It is only when you HAVE TO TAKE OUT INSURANCE POLICY WITH THEM in order to take the loan that there may be a problem.

 

The Insurance is put in place to make the monthly repayments on your loan..if you fall sick,unemployed...etc. as there is a link between the two and if the Insurance is truly invalid then the loan starts racking up interest for missed payments ,default charges and then this is compounded by the fact that lenders have what is known as an 'allocation of payments' which means that any money that goes into your account to pay off the loan does not pay off what you actually borrowed but first goes toward paying off charges and interest so that you are always paying these off and never what you ACTUALLY BORROWED.

 

The terms and conditions of the insurance must be that if you DID become SICK,UNEMPLOYED,DEATH (God Forbid) and THEN you COULD NOT CLAIM ON THAT POLICY then you were mis-sold.AND THEN THE LOAN CAN BE WRITTEN OFF AS WELL BECAUSE IT WAS CONDITIONAL.

Also if your circumstances at the time that you took out the policy were that you were not really eligible to take out that policy then that also means you have been mis-sold because the policy is null and void from the beginning and you are simply wasting your money on the insurance which is what you can reclaim.But if the Loan is NOT conditional on the Policy then you would not be able to write that off UNLESS it WAS because this comes under the UNFAIR RELATIONSHIPS TEST in Consumer Credit Act 2006 s19 and Sectrion 140A Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

You MUST START READING THESE MSAFIRI.

 

It would be GREAT if YOU could PROVIDE EVIDENCE that there was as UNFAIR RELATIONSHIP but the BURDEN is on THEM to SHOW THAT THERE WAS NOT!!!

 

I HAVE told you to read s77.You obviously cant be bothered otherwise you would understand what to do.

Anyway I cannot help you anymore UNTIL YOU YOURSELF START PUTTING INTO PRACTICE WHAT WE HAVE DISCUSSED!!!

 

Write to them asking of them the type of questions I asked of you IN RED above.

 

If and when you receive a reply post it up and I shall take a look.

 

Then we shall take the appropriate course of action... .at the moment we are testing their strength and the waters.

 

Good Luck

 

Once again you HAVE REALLY GOT TO START READING THESE SECTIONS in order to get a feel for the strength and merits of your own case.When it comes down to it at the end of the day ONLY you KNOW the TRUE FACTS and CIRCUMSTANCES of your own case.

 

Rgds

 

m2ae

Edited February 13, 2010 by means2anend

[Msafiri]

I don't know why what I wrote came up this way! I deleted it!

 

Anyway the Life Cover Benefit says: "Payable on death within the terms of the policy or when a claim for terminal illness benefit has been accepted by Natwest Life"

I will go and read as you suggested.

Thanx