what should I do now - if anything

[diddydicky]

the main reason for not sending a cheque is that they then have your bank aco**** details

 

Postal orders are favourite or a cheque from someone else's account

[flooz]

I was going to send off the letter with a cheque from my bank account (CC is in husband's name), but he thought he was being helpful and wrote out a cheque and sent letter.

 

What (if anything) are they likely to do with account details? I know they could set up a DD, but that wouldn't amount to too much, as obviously I'd we'd be able to claim money taken without consent. Am I missing something?

 

Sorry to be a pain, but I'm getting lost in all this, but still want to keep fighting.

[diddydicky]

don't worry about it too much- its just that the less information they have about you the better

[flooz]

Thanks DD. I'll be back when I get my reply (if I do....)

[diddydicky]

oh you will!!

 

but there will be a star in the east if its a true copy of an executed credit agreement!!

[flooz]

[johnerog]

Hi Flooz

Have you had anything from Wendy Starr or that nice Mr. Bergman yet!!

 

You have so much to look forward too.

[diddydicky]

perhaps you should invite them to withdraw on health and safety grounds lest the strain of it all may make their staff ill!!

[flooz]

As promised....

 

Received the following response today from Cap1.

 

 

Yet again, they have provided (along with copies of the letters I previously posted) the document entitled 'credit agreement' but which does, in fact, appear to be nothing more than an application form.

 

Again the standard printed pages of T&C's which may or may not relate to the agreement (nothing to tie them together with what Cap1 are calling the credit agreement). They have provided no other information as requested in the SAR.

 

So now I'm not sure how to proceed. They are clearly taking the stance that they have provided a copy of a fully executed and enforceable credit agreement, so are unlikely to respond favourably to any request for reimbursement of interest, charges, etc (I'm not sure how that is attained, but believe from another 'famous' thread it is indeed possible).

 

I guess I need to respond and point out that I do not believe that what Cap1 have provided is a correctly drawn up agreement, (regardless of whether they have stated they will not enter into further correspondence about it), but what else should I/do I need to state?

 

Any further assistance is greatfully appreciated.

[diddydicky]

the reason that they have sent you a copy of the "original agreement with the signature boxes and signatures removed" and then sent you a "separate" document comprising the signature page of the (same allegedly) original agreement is because they scanned the front page of your agreement into a microfiche file, didnt bother with the back and then destroyed the original.

 

their letter clearly confirms this since if they had the complete original document why would they go to the lengths aforementioned?

[flooz]

Thanks DD, although I'm not sure i'm 'with you' - my brain just isn't working at the moment.

 

What has recently crossed my mind is scanning/photocopying limitations will possibly mean that T&C's provided on a SEPARATE document to me (copy) may actually be the reverse side of what they are calling the credit agreement. If this is the case (and I'm not totally convinced i'm making sense here, lol) how do I find out if any original they manage to produce in the future IS a correctly executed enforceable agreement?

 

If I've got a case to argue, I'm more than happy to fight this to the bitter end, as I said quite early in my thread, I strongly believe that banks/financial institutions have been getting away with too much for too long. But, if everything i'm doing at the moment is going to come back to haunt me, I'm better off trying to keep my credit rating intact - aren't I?

 

On the other hand, Cap1 appear to be taking the stance that they have provided a CCA, so would I be better challenging the format of it??

 

[diddydicky]

ill try again

 

in order to save storage and because they could not forsee a day when the gravy train might run into the buffers, many creditors , came up with the idea of copying the front of the agreement into microfiche (computer) and then destroy the hard paper copies of the agreement

 

they thought that it wasn't necessary to copy the back of the agreement .

 

many were simply application forms and in their haste to get the cards out and get the customers spending on them they dispensed with the niceites of following up with the actual agreements

 

Now, when people want a copy of their original agreement all they can supply are either a copy of the microfiche of the signature page but no T & C's, or an application form which often did not have the T & C's anyway .

 

so now they have to resort to printing off the microfiche of the signature (front) page - which is why they always look so poor quality and unreadable, and then copy onto the back of that some T & C's from the time the agreement was signed from their file of templates from the time

 

why else would your creditor have sent you two seperate documents

 

if they had the original agreement in its original form they could simply have bunged it into their two sided photocopier and sent you a copy of it

 

The wording of the letter you quote is carefully constructed so as not to give an admission that this is the same document lest they be accused of making a false statement

[gezwee]

Semantics I know but...... reading their first paragraph Flooz has apparently got 2 agreements in existance...... a current agreement for Oct 2009 and an original from the past

 

I'd write back and ask them to explain the apparent discrepancies and ask them if they are prepared to issue a compliant response to a S.77/79 request in light of HHJ Waksmans ruling in Manchester 23.12.09

 

They say this is their last response but they will respond again

 

Gez

[flooz]

Thanks for explaining DD - sometimes I need things explained to me in a simple manner as my brain doesn't always do what it should, lol. Other times I seem to decipher reasonably well. I appreciate your taking time with me.

 

With that in mind, I guess what I need to do is write (again) still insisting my account IS in dispute, as the 'agreement' they have provided does NOT conform to -whatever regulation it is-? Will I be able to tackle that more - i.e. if the agreement doesn't conform, then they had no right to charge interest etc?

 

Gezwee - 2 agreements? Current and original, right? Wouldn't that be covered by any leaflet sent to me under the guise of 'variations to your existing agreement'?

 

Is there a specific step I need to take next?

 

Thank you all.

[gezwee]

Hi Flooz

 

There can be but a single true copy of originating executed agreement with historical T&C's and current T&C's (See carey) to remain compliant within S.77/79.

 

Re - read their second paragraph as it implies that you have 2 agreements in place at differing periods of time.

 

You may have one agreement with variable T&C's but certainly ( from the info on this thread) not 2 individual agreements.

 

If nothing else it'll force them to amend their template responses so that its grammatically correct and without any margin for misrepresentation of the (read their) facts.

 

Gez

[diddydicky]

Thanks for explaining DD - sometimes I need things explained to me in a simple manner as my brain doesn't always do what it should, lol. Other times I seem to decipher reasonably well. I appreciate your taking time with me.

 

With that in mind, I guess what I need to do is write (again) still insisting my account IS in dispute, as the 'agreement' they have provided does NOT conform to -whatever regulation it is-? Will I be able to tackle that more - i.e. if the agreement doesn't conform, then they had no right to charge interest etc?

 

Gezwee - 2 agreements? Current and original, right? Wouldn't that be covered by any leaflet sent to me under the guise of 'variations to your existing agreement'?

 

Is there a specific step I need to take next?

 

Thank you all.

 

thats good then- they dont come any simpler than me:D

[flooz]

I think i'm with you both (hopefully, lol).

 

Is there a standard reply pointing out that the signed agreement is not in the correct format - at which point I could antagonise further and point out that there can only be one valid agreement?

 

And is there a legal standpoint on this? In Cap1's eyes, they have a valid enforceable agreement and obviously want me to believe that's true. Is there a way of responding that will make them realise that they can bluff some, but not all (if that is indeed the case)?

 

As I mentioned, I'm quite happy to fight this all the way, and although I'm aware of the DJ lottery, if I can retaliate enough to make Cap1 think I know what I'm talking about (which I don't, lol) it could put me in a position where they would be likely to accept an offer to settle the account (preferably after I've had interest and charges deducted from balance)?

 

[flooz]

I'm trying to compose a suitable letter to Cap1, by trawling through the success threads (as well as those still in progress), but I'm just coming up with more and more questions.

 

I.e. Cap1 have responded to my SAR as above, but have not provided any other information requested. Obviously it could be that there is no further information, e.g. notes of telephone calls, copies of assignments, etc. in which case, should they confirm that there is nothing to declare? Also, I've requested copies of statements and a breakdown of any interest/default charges that have been applied, and again, nothing has been provided. Their reply came very quickly, so they still have 30 days in which to provide the information. BUT, what is the legal situation if they don't provide what has been requested? Especially in light of their insistance that they are not prepared to converse further on this matter!

 

I appreciate all your help guys but I am mindful that you have your own issues to deal with. This site is so vast, it's nearly impossible to find the exact information required in order to read up and digest. Might I ask if there is a particular place I can look to get many of the answers I am going to need? At least then I wouldn't have to keep bugging you lot for what is probably a simple answer - if you know where to look. :-s

[gezwee]

I'm trying to compose a suitable letter to Cap1, by trawling through the success threads (as well as those still in progress), but I'm just coming up with more and more questions.

 

I.e. Cap1 have responded to my SAR as above, but have not provided any other information requested. Obviously it could be that there is no further information, e.g. notes of telephone calls, copies of assignments, etc. in which case, should they confirm that there is nothing to declare? Also, I've requested copies of statements and a breakdown of any interest/default charges that have been applied, and again, nothing has been provided. Their reply came very quickly, so they still have 30 days in which to provide the information. BUT, what is the legal situation if they don't provide what has been requested? Especially in light of their insistance that they are not prepared to converse further on this matter!

 

I appreciate all your help guys but I am mindful that you have your own issues to deal with. This site is so vast, it's nearly impossible to find the exact information required in order to read up and digest. Might I ask if there is a particular place I can look to get many of the answers I am going to need? At least then I wouldn't have to keep bugging you lot for what is probably a simple answer - if you know where to look. :-s

 

Hi Flooz

 

I 'think' they are a good few weeks behind with correspondence, the letter you received above is a response to your CCA query not the SAR.

 

I'd send them something short and sweet in response to the above, something along the lines of ...........'I refer to your correspondence of 7th January 2010. Please confirm which of the 2 documents served on ............. and ............ is the alleged true copy?'

 

Always best to have the last word in the chain of letters as they may at a later date attempt to imply that you acceded to their position.

 

As for the SAR......... they'll stretch the response to day 40 and beyond

 

Gez

[flooz]

Actually Gez, I think you're right - looking at the date(s) they have simply replied to my insistence that what they supplied is NOT a valid CA, and therefore I reiterated my request.

 

Now I think I need to ensure there isn't 2 lots of correspondence going, as it will get too confusing, so it might be wise for me to wait until I receive a response from my SAR before I answer. Do you agree?

 

This 'two agreements' thingy, aren't they just saying that I have been provided with a copy of the 'original T&C's' and the 'current T&C's' - so a grammatical error? The copy of the 'signature' page, which has been supplied to me twice now - is the same - althought it's entitled 'credit agreement' it appears to be nothing more than an application form.

 

I've got an awful feeling that somewhere there was a case where a Judge ruled that this was acceptable, as the original application form would have been written in such a way to include the T&C's, with something along the line of 'only sign here if you agree to the T&C's'.

 

By the way, what happens if they go outside of the time limit? They are already well outside for providing a CA, although they will argue that they have conformed. But what about if they go outside the 40 days too? Or does that just give me cause to complain to the ombudsman?

 

Appreciate your help.

[gezwee]

Hi Flooz

 

Up to you if you want to send them another CCA dispute, may just be me but I like to have the last word in any chain of correspondence

 

Nothing wrong with picking them up on their grammar, their response definitely implies that you have 2 agreements. Doesnt matter what their intent was its still your lawful right to have clarity in any dispute. Chances are that they won't bother replying again on the subject but you'll have made your point and if it ever escalates to litigation you can show that you have attempted to resolve.

 

As for the SAR, just see how things progress - you can of course send them a gentle reminder near to the end of the 40 days and if they exceed this you can send them another one at say day 60 ....... if they still havent complied by the end of 2 months you could send them an LBA giving another 14 days. All things to think about in the future and wouldnt get too hung up on it for now.

 

Have a read of others threads where the creditor has not complied with SAR and you'll have a better idea of how to handle things if needed.

 

Gez

[flooz]

Ok. Now I'm really really confused. I've been reading http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt-issues/162851-consumer-credit-agreements-guide.html

 

and found this in it....

 

However, credit card companies usually send a copy of the application form (often without a signature) and a copy of current Terms and Conditions, which fully complies with the 1983 regulations.

 

How does that affect things? If it fully complies with the regulations, how does that affect the situation?

[diddydicky]

complies with the regulations to provide the information to you under s78

 

does not mean that what is provided is necessarily admissable in court in support of a claim against you

 

in that case they should produce the original agreement not a reconstitited document

[flooz]

Ah Ok - that makes sense. Is there a way to force them to disclose to me whether they have a FULL signed fully enforceable agreement?

 

I just want to make sure I do this properly and cover all avenues.

[diddydicky]

Ah Ok - that makes sense. Is there a way to force them to disclose to me whether they have a FULL signed fully enforceable agreement?

 

I just want to make sure I do this properly and cover all avenues.

 

no, and i would strongly advise against taking any action against them