PCN I recieved, have I got a chance of appealing?

[JimmySpangle]

I can accept what you are saying buzby. I am basing my thought process on logioc I must admit, not law. I think this is one for the Op to decide on, but the fact they read the sign, paid by phone and crucially were told it was free after 6:30pm would I think be grounds. I understand what you are saying about car signs being on the road too.

 

It is certainly worth an appeal I feel. I would suggest a politely worded letter appealling to their better nature on this occasion may help, but you and I know what councils are like.

[danielr]

... but the fact they read the sign, paid by phone and crucially were told it was free after 6:30pm would I think be grounds. ...

it is free parking after 6:30... right up until 7 when it is then loading only...

 

just like it's free parking in the morning from 7, (when the loading only restriction ends), right up until 8:30 when the 4 hours no return within 1 hour paid parking restriction start.

 

or have I just read it all wrong?

[JimmySpangle]

No you have it spot on. You can have my car FREE if you like (within the next 3 seconds after which it will cost you £20,000)

[TheBogsDollocks]

There are errors in the signing that will win this for you. As G&M is highly competent, I expect his draft will suffice.

[green_and_mean]

Dear Sir

 

The sign you have alledged I have contravened is a 'loading only' sign TSRGD diag 660.4. Direction 25 in the TSRGD clearly states the type of bay I parked in must be marked with the legend 'loading only' if this sign is used to restrict the bay.

In addition the pay by phone signage on the same bay has no hours of operation on it, standard practice would infer that the bay then operates 24/7. I phoned the number only to be told the restriction ended at 18.30 before I parked.

When a bay has more than one restriction it is common practice to place all the restrictions on the same timeplate to avoid confusion in this case I read the pay by phone sign and failed to notice the 'loading only' sign placed further up the pole.

I therefore request this PCN is cancelled forthwith due to non compliant signage. If you fail to do so can you provide with the notice of rejection a copy of D of T approval for the use of the pay by phone sign without hours of operation in a bay that is not 'at any time' and approval for the use of the 'loading only' sign without a legend on the road.

[djsyxx]

Thank you G&M. When I write to them should I attach the pictures I have taken of the bays and the signs?

[green_and_mean]

Thank you G&M. When I write to them should I attach the pictures I have taken of the bays and the signs?

 

Yes you may as well but they will probably just try to call your bluff at first but when they do reply and most likely reject the appeal come back and we can take it from there.

[djsyxx]

Yes you may as well but they will probably just try to call your bluff at first but when they do reply and most likely reject the appeal come back and we can take it from there.

 

Ok thats what I will do, thank you very much G&M I will get this drafted up tomorrow and send it on monday, I will reply back soon as I get a response.

[TheBogsDollocks]

In addition to what G&M has correctly advised you can include that the TSRGD 2002 makes it impossible to have a combination where a bay is "Loading Only" outside "Limited Waiting" hours unless the bay is marked to diagram 1033.

 

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2002/023113bn.gif

[djsyxx]

Hi there guys have an update to this situation, I just recieved a response from the Parking services here is there response to this:

 

"Thank you for your correspondence regarding the above Penalty Charge Notice issued by the Civil Enforcement Officer believed the vehicle to be parked in a bay designated for loading only.

 

Your challenge against this PCN has been rejected because the road markings and signage are correct and compliant to the regulations.

 

As the bay is not a dedicated loading bay in force 24 hours and has a seperate use during the Controlled Parking Zone hours, the legend "Loading" is not required on the road. During the CPZ hours of control the parking bay is a Pay by Phone bay. The signs that advise of the CPZ are located at the entrance at the entrancve to each parking zone unless the restrictions remain the same as the zone you are leaving.

 

It is the drivers responsibility to ensure they check all local road markings and signage to ensure they are fully aware of the restrictions in force.

 

After reviewing all the evidence submitted by the CEO and yourself, I can confirm that the PCN was issued correctly."

 

They enclosed two pics printed on the letter one of the car with the ticket and one of the signage which I have already taken a picture of and shown on here.

 

Two options pay at discounted rate from date of letter or make a formal representation.

 

So the question is what now? "green&mean?"

[buzby]

Haven't you already made a formal Representation? If not, their considered response was pretty well detailled for an informal response. As they have restarted the discount period, I would take it. Since you are really only appealing on the fact the sign cannot be read from the pavement, this cannot be sustained as a requirement in law - so the pragmatic approach would be to take the extended discount, as a subsequent Adjudication supporting this point woul be slim.

[Jamberson]

I don't think a formal rep has been made yet - he only got the PCN at the start of the month so no NTO will have gone out yet.

[djsyxx]

Haven't gotten to that stage all I have done so far is right to them and sent a letter via email and wrote exactly what green&mean said I should write. Just got the response from them today telling me what i've written in my post.

[green_and_mean]

Await Notice to owner and send same thing back if they take it to adjudication which is highly unlikely for Westminster I will come with you or represent if you cannot attend. You can use same letter for formal reps I will draft a better more detailed one for the adjudication. They may have authorisation for the bay but the bit about the CPZ is complete bull a CPZ only covers bays without signs and yellow lines.

[djsyxx]

Await Notice to owner and send same thing back if they take it to adjudication which is highly unlikely for Westminster I will come with you or represent if you cannot attend. You can use same letter for formal reps I will draft a better more detailed one for the adjudication. They may have authorisation for the bay but the bit about the CPZ is complete bull a CPZ only covers bays without signs and yellow lines.

 

So I don't need to write to them to say I want to make a formal representation so shall I just sit on it and wait till the notice to owner comes?

[buzby]

Heck no. You need to raise an appeal with the correct PArking Adjudicator. YOu don't have to tell the Council if you don't want to as your discount will auto-expire anyway.

 

If you do nothing, the next step will be bailffs.

[Jamberson]

Heck no. You need to raise an appeal with the correct PArking Adjudicator. YOu don't have to tell the Council if you don't want to as your discount will auto-expire anyway.

 

If you do nothing, the next step will be bailffs.

 

Buzby - he's not had an NTO yet. He SHOULD wait for the NTO then make a formal rep. It's too soon for the adjudicator and bailiffs are a long way off.

[buzby]

The OP said;

 

"So I don't need to write to them to say I want to make a formal representation so shall I just sit on it and wait..."

 

 

The OP needs to MAKE a formal representation (on receipt of the NTO) not 'sit and wait'' - there's no mileage in telling the Council you intend making a formal representation, this has no relevance.

[Jamberson]

You need to raise an appeal with the correct PArking Adjudicator.

 

If you do nothing, the next step will be bailffs.

 

Hmm...

 

Your subsequent post is correct.

[buzby]

They're ALL correct.

[TheBogsDollocks]

Await Notice to owner and send same thing back if they take it to adjudication which is highly unlikely for Westminster I will come with you or represent if you cannot attend. You can use same letter for formal reps I will draft a better more detailed one for the adjudication. They may have authorisation for the bay but the bit about the CPZ is complete bull a CPZ only covers bays without signs and yellow lines.

 

I'd snap that offer up if I were you. That's a kind offer Green & Not So Mean.

[green_and_mean]

Ignore all the waffle, formal reps are made to the notice to owner await that then send the same appeal but expand it a bit.....

 

The sign you have alledged I have contravened is a 'loading only' sign TSRGD diag 660.4. Direction 24 in the TSRGD clearly states the type of bay I parked in must be marked with the legend 'loading only' if this sign is used to restrict the bay. There is no provision for the 660.4 signage to be used in a part time bay without the road marking 'LOADING ONLY'. If the intention was to allow loading but restrict parking a single yellow line should have been used 7pm-7am.

In addition the pay by phone signage on the same bay has no hours of operation on it, standard practice would infer that the bay then operates 24/7. I phoned the number only to be told the restriction ended at 18.30 before I parked. Your notice of rejection incorrectly states that the hours of the pay by phone are indicated by the CPZ, as you should well know CPZ signage only covers single yellow lines and bays that have a legend on the road but no time plate, the lack of time on a sign clearly indicates the restriction is at 'anytime'. The pay by phone signage is therefore non compliant and misleading due to its lack of the correct hours of operation.

In addition when a bay has more than one restriction it is common practice to place all the restrictions on the same timeplate to avoid confusion in this case I read the pay by phone sign and failed to notice the 'loading only' sign placed further up the pole.

I therefore request this PCN is cancelled forthwith due to non compliant signage. If you have also failed to provide with the notice of rejection a copy of D of T approval for the use of the pay by phone sign without hours of operation in a bay that is not 'at any time' and approval for the use of the 'loading only' sign without a legend on the road.

I will advise you that if this PCN is not cancelled I will be taking it to adjudication and will be seeking costs due to the Councils failure to accept that the signage is non compliant with the statutary requirements.

[djsyxx]

Hi there Green & Mean. Just been waiting for the Notice to Owner to come in and arrived this morning. So shall I just copy what you have written above and also is there anything else you can think I could add?

 

Also found something interesting too, they have recently changed the sign plate and now everything is written on one plate and also they have changed the loading hours as well!

 

So now the loading hours are now from 6.30pm till 8.30am monday to sunday.

 

 

So it must have been wrong in the first place as they didn't erect the correct signage.

 

Also you know you mentioned about the legend loading only in the bays, that still isn't present in the bays!

[green_and_mean]

How strange they are millions in the red and still find £100 for a nice new sign to replace the perfectly legal one that was there before?!

 

Yes just stick with what we have already, the TMO (traffic order) may have been wrong unless they changed it for the new signs but you should get a copy if it goes to appeal in the evidence pack. You can add the signage has been changed and was wrong to try and convince them but Westminster tend to treat parking like Poker and will usually call your bluff only fold at the last minute. Note that they have now put the times on the phone sign aswell, lol I sometimes wonder how they get their jobs??

 

You could be cheeky and send them the new photo with the background cropped and say this is what the sign should look like and don't mention its been changed and see what they say.

Edited January 22, 2010 by green_and_mean

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

If this goes to the adjudicator, remember to ask for costs on the basis of the LAs unreasonable behaviour in handling your representations.

 

PS Let me know when it is, I'd love to come along for the entertainment!