Santander Card/Loan

[citizenB]

biscuit, they are not entitled to see bank statements, bills etc. Only a court can insist on seeing those and the Bank wouldnt be privy to the information even then.

 

I havent heard of Viking Services and you are right to not speak to them on the phone. How do you know for sure that they have been asked by Santander to contact you ?

 

Until you receive a copy of the agreement, then there is no proof of liability.

 

Just one thing, are you still continuing to pay them ?

[biscuits42]

I'm paying the £1 per month that we offered them in our initial letter.

[citizenB]

Ah, right.

 

TBH, I am not quite sure what to advise you to do. Will try and get you some assistance.

[biscuits42]

Thanks... that would be most appreciated. I've done a lot of reading about this stuff, and our other couple of debts have been very straightforward, but this one is really confusing me!

[supasnooper]

If you have sent off a SAR to the creditor, there is absolutely nothing that they can do to evade the 40 day limit.

 

Do not speak to Viking on the phone neither. If they want to contact you then they will write to you.

[biscuits42]

This morning I have received a letter from Viking Collection Services debt enforcement dept... which, uncannily, has the same address as Santander! So it would appear that it is an in-house DCA. They have demanded payment in full within 7 days. I have attached a copy of the letter. My thoughts are that I should just write informing them that I am disputing the account until Santander fulfill the SAR... is this right?

 

[supasnooper]

You cannot put an account into dispute due to SAR non compliance.

 

I note steven4064 has commented earlier that the agreement is enforceable.

 

You will need to write again to Sanatander, re-iterate that you are unable to make full repayments and invite them to read the OFT's guidelines on Debt Collection

Edited December 17, 2009 by supasnooper
addition

[biscuits42]

I've sent them a subject access request as the agreement they sent me is for the now non-existent storecard I used to hold with Debenhams. They closed it and changed it to a Mastercard a few years ago but Santander have not provided the agreement for the current account - ie the Mastercard one.

[biscuits42]

I've now received a letter from them in response to my SAR letter (in whch I stated that I was requesting it as I was concerned that my initial request for a copy of the original agreement only got me a copy of the agreement for the storecard account, not the mastercard account). They haven't sent me any info (or cashed my cheque) but have said that they provided the correct information in response to s78 as they only "upgraded" the account to a mastercard so this is covered under FSA guidelines. Does anyone know whether this is correct, or whether they're just trying to pull the wool over my eyes by quoting lots of legal jargon at me.

[citizenB]

I've now received a letter from them in response to my SAR letter (in whch I stated that I was requesting it as I was concerned that my initial request for a copy of the original agreement only got me a copy of the agreement for the storecard account, not the mastercard account). They haven't sent me any info (or cashed my cheque) but have said that they provided the correct information in response to s78 as they only "upgraded" the account to a mastercard so this is covered under FSA guidelines. Does anyone know whether this is correct, or whether they're just trying to pull the wool over my eyes by quoting lots of legal jargon at me.

 

They are attempting to pull the wool over your eyes. The Mastercard would obviously have more benefits than the storecard ie.. You would be able to use it anywhere. Whereas the storecard would be restricted to a store or group.

 

IMHO, I dont think you should have explained WHY you wanted the SAR, it isnt necessary in any case. You may well find that you have difficulty getting them to send stuff to you now.

 

Therefore, a new agreement and terms and conditions should have been issued.. IMHO.

 

Also, the Subject Access Request is a request for ALL data pertaining to you. They do not have to provide a copy of the agreement under the DPA1998 and the ICO will not support you if they fail to provide one as part of the SAR.

 

The DPA request is independant of the CCA1974 request and shouldnt be confused.

[biscuits42]

Thanks CitizenB. I've just checked and I sent two letters within a couple of days of each other, one a straightforward SAR from the link you posted, and the other was from another template and was sent as a complaint that the account number on the CCA received was no longer a valid account, and advising them I needed an appropriate CCA for the curent Mastercard account.

 

Their reply is obviously to the complaint and there's the usual blurb about what constitutes a "true copy" under s78. Then they state the following:

"The account number quoted on the agreement of 6*****5 was the original account number you were supplied when you opened the account. In June 2006 a letter was sent to you advising you had been selected for an upgrade to a new Debenhams account card and a card bearing the new account number was subsequently sent to you. By activating the card you accepted the upgrade.

When upgrading an account it is not a requirement for a new application form to be completed and this has full Financial Services Authority approval. I can therefore confirm that the agreement that you have been provided with is the correct agreement for this account."

 

My problem with the above is that no-one was disputing whether or not a new application form should have been completed... but whether the prescribed terms of the storecard were sufficiently different to those of the Mastercard so as to require a new account and CCA. I suspect the quote about FSA approval has been added to try and make it look like the whole thing is completely ok by the FSA. This just makes me suspicious so I will ignore the letter for now and remind them that they only have x days left to comply with the SAR. I can then see whether or not anything in the SAR shows that the original account was closed. If so I will assume that a new CCA would have been necessary. What do you think?

[biscuits42]

Is it worth writing to the FSA for clarification on whether or not the lack of new agreement was approved along with them not requiring a new application form?

[citizenB]

I doubt the FSA would help you:) However, you could try either the FOS or the OFT.

 

I think if there were significant changes/alterations to the prescribed terms and terms and conditions a modifying agreement SHOULD have been provided.

 

You would be able to withdraw cash on a Mastercard but not on a store card. There are significant differences.

[biscuits42]

cool... thanks. There's only 11 days til the SAR deadline so look forward to seeing what they provide.

[biscuits42]

These demands from Viking are just daft.... they're obviously the same people as Santander - same address, same people, one even forgetting for a moment exactly which she was calling from - so why they bother sending letters demanding payment in full within 7 days is beyond me... they've already had enough letters telling them we can't afford minimum payment so where do they think we'll find the full balance? They've now sent one for the Asda loan.

I read something in the OFT guidelines that when a company passes on a debt, they have to pass on enough information to avoid repetition... surely if I have to go back to square one and send the information I've already sent Santander that we can't pay the minimum payment, then they're not working within the guidelines, as they should already have this info from Santander across the desk? Or am I barking up the wrong tree.

I wouldn't mind, but I only want them to accept the token payment for 6-12mths til we're back on our feet then we can go back to sensible payments! All our other creditors were happy to help!

 

We have also noticed that the default notices sent by Santander did not have a resolution date on them - just stated that arrears must be paid within 14 days of receipt of the letter, which I gather is a bit naughty.

Edited January 2, 2010 by biscuits42

[citizenB]

 

We have also noticed that the default notices sent by Santander did not have a resolution date on them - just stated that arrears must be paid within 14 days of receipt of the letter, which I gather is a bit naughty.

 

It certainly is:D You may never receive the letter ?

[biscuits42]

It certainly is:D You may never receive the letter ?

My thoughts exactly

[biscuits42]

Can anyone confirm whether the 40 days quoted in a SAR includes service time? If so, Santander have about 3 days to comply, if not time is up tomorrow. If they don't get service time and if I don't receive the results of my SAR request tomorrow, what is the next step?

[biscuits42]

Can anyone please advise what the next step is if a creditor fails to comply with a subject access request within the 40 day limit?

[citizenB]

Can anyone please advise what the next step is if a creditor fails to comply with a subject access request within the 40 day limit?

 

Hi ibscuits, if you sent the original request via Special or recorded delivery then you can check on the RM website and see when it was delivered. You then count 40 calendar days from the date of receipt and that is when you should have the data in your possession by.

 

If not, then you can send them a Letter before Action. This gives a further 7-14 days before which you will a) take them to court or b) make an official complaint to the Information Commissioner.

 

This is the process when you take them to court...

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/lloydstsb-successes/208966-me-them-sar-non.html

 

 

Short thread but successful outcome.

[biscuits42]

Thanks CitizenB... much appreciated as always.

[biscuits42]

The second account under Santander, for the Asda loan, has since been passed to Viking also, and we have today received a demand for payment of the account in full. The OFT guidelines for fair practice during debt collection state that it is unreasonable to expect a debtor to repeatedly send the same information regarding a debt when it is passed from one party to another - does this mean that when the debt was transferred from Santander to Viking (ie across to the next desk!) they should have transferred with it all my previous correspondence explaining why we cannot make the minimum payments? If so is it reasonable and fair for them to be demanding full payment in the knowledge that we can't even afford the minimum payment?

 

For the Debenhams account, they replied to my SAR 2 days after the deadline with a letter saying that they complied with it on the 23rd of December, despite the fact that the £10.00 cheque was never cashed and I have received nothing but yet another letter demanding an income and expenditure form be completed - from Santander, not Viking... even though they claim to have already passed the debt to Viking!

 

Like a wally, I forgot to send the original SAR by recorded delivery (I was sending lots of letters and just stamped and posted them all without thinking that one should go to PO) so I just assumed that with the cheque not being cashed, it had either got lost or been ignored - maybe they realised it wasn't recorded so dumped it. So I've sent a second one via recorded delivery.

I received the letter saying that they'd already complied with it on the same day they received my second request (checked POD) so I know it's in response to the original one.... so why didn't they cash the cheque if they think they've sent the information??

And to top it all off they've sent ANOTHER income and expenditure form despite me writing twice already to tell them I'm not completing one as it's not a requirement! GRR!

 

They end the letter with the line "I trust this clarifies the situation."

 

No it bloomin' well does not!

[biscuits42]

Ok... I need some advice now as I'm not sure how to proceed (although I expect it will involve a lengthy letter).

 

Following my Subject Access Request to Santander re: the Debenhams card account (storecard opened in April '99, converted to mastercard June '06 and reissued with a third account number in April '09)... I've received a package today stating that the contents were originally posted to me on 23rd Dec 09 so they've returned my second cheque (but haven't cashed the first yet). They've sent me the following stating on the letter that the DPA only requires them to send information that they hold!

 

-Two copies of the original application at the beginning of this thread

-A set of Asda card T&Cs

-Two copies of "Notes" from the most recent account number but dating from 04/07/06-23/12/09 (Do not include details of most of the letters sent to and forth, and only two of the multitudes of phonecalls - also no mention of the account being passed to Viking)

-Three copies of transaction lists for the most recent account number (again dating from July 06-Dec 09)

-Three copies of transaction lists for the storecard account number from July 05-Dec 09 (it was opened in 1999!)

-A copy of the storecard account statements (Nov 03-Jun 06)

-A copy of the mastercard statements for original mastercard account number (July 06 - April 09)

-Two copies of the mastercard statements for the most recent account number for Oct and Nov 09 only.

-Two copies of the same 'Notice of Sums in Arrears'

 

They claim to have included all the information they hold and have also included a copy of the letter they say was sent on 23rd Dec 09 in response to my original SAR request. On this it states they have sent:

- Credit Agreement

- T&Cs

- List of Transactions

- Copy Statements

- DSA Form (although not sure what this is so don't know if I've been sent it)

- Notes

 

They then list 17 separate months between Aug 04 and Sept 09 for which they are unable to provide statements, stating that the data is not available.

 

My main concern is that I've changed my address 4 times since taking out the card and none of this is recorded on the notes, I've had my card changed 'due to suspected security breach on the account' and this isn't in the notes, I've had the card changed from storecard to mastercard and this isn't mentioned once in all of the paperwork sent to me. In my original request I asked for copies of all correspondence and have received nothing. I'm assuming the many duplicates are to pad out the envelope to make it look like they've sent me loads, when in actual fact there's little or no real information here! What do I need to do next?

[biscuits42]

Hope someone can help with this as it's getting more tangled the more I look at it!

 

Please tell me if any of it doesn't make sense

 

I've now noticed that the letter they claim was sent with the original SAR response in Dec 09 states:

"With regard to the default notice I have provided you with the Notice of Default Sums and Notice of Sums in Arrears. I can see your account has not defaulted however there are numerous later payments recorded"

 

Firstly they've sent two copies of the Notice of Default Sums, but no copy of the Notice of Sums in Arrears - are these the same thing? Are Santander just trying to confuse me?

 

And secondly, if they're stating in this letter that my account has not defaulted, why have they issue me with a DN (albeit a faulty one). I've made my token payments regularly on the promised date every month even though they have yet to acknowledge or accept my offer.

 

Confused ??? Me ???? Course not :-?

[citizenB]

So, Santander have taken over the accounts (both of them) from the original lender who were Debenham and Asda, is that correct ?

 

Santander will only be able to provide you with information that they have from the time they took the accounts over.

 

In which case if any of the information missing is from before the date Santander acquired the accounts you will need to request that information from the original lenders.

 

There should be something like a diary of events/ call log type sheet. This should detail everything that has happened ie if they telephoned you, letters sent, etc. If they havent kept hard copies of letters then how will they know they sent you a Letter on such and such a date ?

 

Your personal information should be recorded accurately, so if it isnt then that is a breach of the Data Protection Act. If it isnt accurate then they are not reporting it accurately.

 

So you need to ask to see some indication that they have amended your details when requested.

 

IMHO I would write back and say that no information was provided to you in December. Remember that was the time of postal disputes and very bad weather.. this information could have been lost.

 

Say they didnt cash your cheque number, dated.. so you find it strange they would have provided information without the fee.

 

Tell them you want the items they say they sent out in December - resent. You dont have that information and you want it.

 

See what happens