issues with a property management company fees demand by a debt collector

[andydd]

andy could you please clarify what you mean by 'lease disputes'? I must be thick because I can't see the link here. There isn't a lease in place. My understanding is that leases are for rented properties or perhaps related to the leasehold system in England, neither of which are applicable here.

 

Having investigated I can see that this area of law is completely different in Scotland, although your situation would appear on the face of it to be the same as mine, i.e..excessive managemnet agent costs, mine can be resolved by an LVT who would decide wether the costs are reasonable, however none of this applies in Scotland I'm afraid so I'm at a loss to help further.

 

Andy

[breakanegg]

Having investigated I can see that this area of law is completely different in Scotland, although your situation would appear on the face of it to be the same as mine, i.e..excessive managemnet agent costs, mine can be resolved by an LVT who would decide wether the costs are reasonable, however none of this applies in Scotland I'm afraid so I'm at a loss to help further.

 

Andy

 

I really wish it did Had a look at at the leashold advisory service website and that sounds ideal. Makes me really angry that we don't have something similiar in Scotland, especially when there was an MP running with the petition to parliament for legislation of these thieves! I was in contact with that MP when I was originally complaining about the service and she responded that it's a huge problem in Scotland and legislation is vital, god knows why it was knocked back.

 

I think they'll need to take me to small claims court for it but that's where I get lost. As say the England/Wales system is really clear online, you can find out all about CPR for documentation disclosure and offers of payment on the Ministry of Justice website. I've no clue how it works in Scotland and I really wish we had a more simplistic system. At least one that allowed a proper defense and a taking of these ripping off management companies to task

 

Rant over

[BlurredFX]

Scottish law is proving to be the problem here.

 

If ti was in Eng;land, I would be tempted to let them take you to Court, and they force them to show the docs with a CPR request once they issue proceedings. That is what I have done, and it is progressing ok -

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/213905-county-court-claim-housing.html

 

I would suspect that there must be provision in Scottish law for forcing them to disclose what they intend to rely on in Court - it is a basic principle that you know what you are "accused" of in order that you can defend yourself. If you dispute what they say, they must produce EVIDENCE to support it. Judges make Judgements based on evidence.

 

It may be worth speaking to that MP again, if they will speak to you, which could prove tricky if you are not a constituent.

 

Keep us posted, this is interesting.

 

In ENgland we are entitled to (but it isn't always that easy to obtain) to a free half hour consultation. Try phoning round a few solicitors, they may give you five minutes, and they may just give a nugget of info that can put us on a better track.

 

Keep at it, don't let them grind you down!

 

Blurred

[Guest Old_andrew2018]

Bump

[IdaInFife]

cpr does not apply in Scotland adn there are no pre action protocols in Scotland i'm afraid

 

 

this thread may be of use for you

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/scotland/225337-hacking-paterson.html

[breakanegg]

Not really, but thanks anyway. Post just confirms what I already know, there's not a damn thing you can do about these people, they're a law unto themselves.

 

My concern is specifically related to court action because they are taking me to court because I refuse to pay for sums they have classified as 'miscelleanous' and refuse to disclose information on.

 

SURELY the courts could not force me to pay this? Isn't there something that says I am entitled to know what I am being charged for? What is likely to happen if this goes to court? The Scottish legal system is confusing and there doesn't seem to be any information available to teh public on how it works. This is contrary to the English/Welsh system which has a very informative website (ministry of justice) with details of their CPR.

 

The English/Welsh CPR also applies AFTER action has been taken as well as before.

 

Find it hard to believe (or maybe not since logic doesn't seem to apply north of the border) that there is no equivalent in Scotland.

[Monty2007]

Ida is correct, there are no CPR in Scotland. What type of summons have they issued; small claims, Summary Cause or Ordinary Cause?

 

For the first two you can serve an Incidental Application once you have indicated you wish to defend.

In the case of an Ordinary cause you will need to serve a Motion which can be complicated since you need to get the format correct and have it served on the Pursuer through a solicitor or certified Bailiff.

 

 

You will also need to complete form O7 (notice of Intention to defend) if it is an Ordinary Cause action.

 

Can you post up some more information on the type of writ and the details of their claim?

[breakanegg]

Been looking here Small Claims Guidance Notes, looks like this is about as good as it's gonna get in terms of advice. I imagine I will be in the category of disputing the amount owed.

 

What I'm unsure about is will this go to Summary Cause or Small Claims? The Amount is £2500 so it would be covered by small claims. Are there any advantages/disadvantages to either route?

 

The main dispute I have is the miscelleanous fees, which are several hundred.

I am disputing them and since I've had no evidence of what they are then I don't think it's unreasonable I should dispute it.

 

 

Can I ask the courts to allow me to view the 'evidence' of what these fees are or will the sherrif just review it and decide on his own merit if it is justified? Seems bit unfair if I'm not given opportunity to review it.

 

I'm also disputing other fees for work that

a) I do not believe was carried out like £300 for carpet shampoos. The carpets are filthy and I have photographic evidence of this, even if shampoos were conducted (which I've seen no evidence of) the issue then becomes satisfactory quality.

 

Other issue is cleaning, cleaning is ridiculous, the communal hallway is absolutely filthy and again I've disputed this and have photographic evidence.

 

Finally things like £300 for dummy cameras which residents were not consulted on prior to fitting. I'm disputing they're useless, better nothing or the real thing and can show crime rates have not improved.

 

 

My car keeps getting vandalised in the private underground car park. It's been reported to the police so I was going to produce some form of police report.

 

I'm actually out of work at the moment, i was made redundant

 

 

I'm going to call CAB on Monday but does anyone know if I can get any form of assistance on this? I want to have proper legal representation from someone that's going to fight this for me.

 

Ida is correct, there are no CPR in Scotland. What type of summons have they issued; small claims, Summary Cause or Ordinary Cause?

 

For the first two you can serve an Incidental Application once you have indicated you wish to defend. In the case of an Ordinary cause you will need to serve a Motion which can be complicated since you need to get the format correct and have it served on the Pursuer through a solicitor or certified Bailiff. You will also need to complete form O7 (notice of Intention to defend) if it is an Ordinary Cause action.

 

Can you post up some more information on the type of writ and the details of their claim?

 

I'm a bit premature here guys for which apologise, so far haven't received a summons.

 

I sent a letter, disputing the debt based upon miscelleneous fees, work that is of unsatisfactory quality and doubt that some charged work was actually carried out.

 

Response I received from property factor was "our agreement doesn't require us to provide you with this information", pay up or they'll take me to court.

 

I then received few days later letter from their solicitor saying if I don't pay full amount within 7 days they'll proceed to court.

 

So I guess I'm trying to second guess what will happen here so I can take proper action. I want to defend this to the fullest, I feel really strongly about it.

 

I'm happy to defend it myself if I get proper advice from in the know peeps on here money advice Scotland, CAB etc.

 

If it's small claims, I THINK, according to that site, I can't get legal advice I think value puts it into small claims category but don't know if TYPE of debt makes it summary cause.

 

If you peeps don't mind I'll post up here when I get the paperwork through. Any advice appreciated.

 

I also thought about saying in my initial defence letter to court after summons that I believe pursuer has acted unreasonably and believe court should take this into consideration.

 

 

I have letters showing I have tried to resolve this issue with them but they've just totally blanked me and demanded full payment without producing any of the requested proof.

[breakanegg]

Scottish law is proving to be the problem here.

 

If ti was in Eng;land, I would be tempted to let them take you to Court, and they force them to show the docs with a CPR request once they issue proceedings. That is what I have done, and it is progressing ok -

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/213905-county-court-claim-housing.html

 

I would suspect that there must be provision in Scottish law for forcing them to disclose what they intend to rely on in Court - it is a basic principle that you know what you are "accused" of in order that you can defend yourself. If you dispute what they say, they must produce EVIDENCE to support it. Judges make Judgements based on evidence.

 

Blurred

 

You'd think! Got another thread going specific to the Scottish law aspects. Been told that there's no CPR for disclosure prior to action in Scotland, unfrigginbelievable! Think my next step is to contact the in-court advisor on Monday to discuss what the court procedures are for disclosure of information. Like you say, surely they have to produce evidence? They seem to be relying on the fact that the Deed of Conditions says they must be appoitned as property manager. However I think that only relates to their actual management fee, it's all the other fees including miscelleanous that I'm disputing.

 

Been reading your thread with interest. Followed Bazaar's link on the Sale of Goods & Services Act, that's quite interesting but again, I'm not sure, does this Act apply in Scotland?

 

I think it really applies in my case because my whole case goes to the quality of services. So I might well be making that part of my defence.

 

However I am wondering here if I need to put in a claim myself against the developer.

 

I'll use one example to try and explain, the carpets in the communal hallway. They're terrible, a really light cream colour, wholly unsuitable for a communal hallway with constant traffic. So that would come under the 'goods' part of the act in terms of fitness for purpose, durability etc. However that would need to be a claim against the developer?

 

The other issue is the cleaning which is a service provided by the factor. I think the act also mentions quality of service but also, does it not have provisions for negotiation on services? Our Deed of Conditions I think only applies to their appt as Management Company, it doesn't say that we need to put up with their sub-standard cleaning service. Would that be subject to the act you think?

[breakanegg]

Me again

 

One of the main issues is getting them to disclose details of the debt.

 

Couldn't I send them a DPA subject access request? Are calculations and documentation such as invoices from sub-contractors, deed of conditions etc not information they hold on me since it is for purposes of determining what I owe them?

 

Also, could part of my defence be that charges are Unfair under Unfair Terms in Consumer Contract Regulations 1999? Govan Law Centre have recommended here that I could use a SAR letter and also that could challenge charges under the Unfair Terms regs. Where I'm unsure though is this seems to be specific to administration charges.

 

I'm confused though because I thought DPA was about information they hold on me, I could pay the statutory fee and they might be cheeky and send information they hold on me, I already know that, I need information on how they've arrived at their charges and what these miscelleneous fees are for.

 

Finally, can I challenge the jurisdiction of the courts (when summons comes through) on basis that debt is reasonably disputed and OFT Debt collection guidelines prohibits pursuing reasonably disputed debts? I did send them a Notice Pursuant to s10 of DPA and also advised them of the OFT Guidelines in my latest letter. Tehy ignored it and sent my details to DCA anyway.

 

Could I not say that whilst the debt is reasonably disputed and until such time as the factor satisfies me as to what I owe the court has no jurisdiction?

 

If they continue in effect the courts would be deciding if the debt is fair and reasonable without me being given the opportunity to do so since they refuse to disclose any information.

 

Gawd this would be so much easier in England, I could just ask for them to disclose under CPR. Why on earth don't we have any laws or procedure that forces a debtor to disclose details of a debt they claim someone owes?

[breakanegg]

Scottish law is proving to be the problem here.

 

If ti was in Eng;land, I would be tempted to let them take you to Court, and they force them to show the docs with a CPR request once they issue proceedings. That is what I have done, and it is progressing ok -

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/213905-county-court-claim-housing.html

 

Keep at it, don't let them grind you down!

 

Blurred

 

EEEEEK! Well I've got my small claims summons through and now I'm bricking it.

 

here's wording of their claim "The pursuers claim from the defender the sum of £2,503.73 with interest on that sum at the rate of 8% annually from the date of service, together with the expenses of bringing that claim."

 

I'm at an utter loss as to how they can get away with this. I can't afford a solicitor coz I'm currently unemployed so need to try and defend this myself. I know courts operate on legalities not what's fair so would really appreciate some help putting together my response.

 

I have 4 options according to form:

 

1. Challenge jurisdiction of the court

2. State a defence

3. State a counterclaim

4. Dispute the amount of the claim.

 

I think for me it's 2 and 4 but how to word that in legal speak I'm unsure about. My main issues are as follows:

 

1. They state that in deed of conditions I must pay them. I have not received a copy of this deed but I believe it only refers to their management fee, not all other fees that they do not consult on like 'bin fee' (council empty bins), miscellaneous etc. I also wonder if there's any comeback as per Unfair Terms Contract Regulations in that this was never negotiated and they have an unfair advantage in that builder insists you use them I think is unfair?

2. They have refused, from word go to respond to my letters requesting an explanation of their charges. I hav requetsed details of miscellaneous fees, they refused, I requested details of other charges such as 'dummy cameras' when I didn't agree to that and can prove crime has not improved since their installation (my vehicle has been damaged for one).

3. Standards of work, cleaning has always been an issue. The residents committee recently met with them and gave them a proper ar$e kicking on cleaning, something I've been doing for years but gotten nowhere. They promised to resolve it, nothing's happened yet but I have always disputed cleaning fees on the basis that the standard of workmanship was unacceptable. I have photographic evidence of this.

4. This debt has been disputed for some time but they have refused to enter into dialogue with me on this and have instead proceeded straight to court without first trying to resolve it with me, do courts have any opinions on this sort of action? I can show all the letters and emails including their responses refusing point blank to acknowledge my complaints.

5. Can they claim interest on a debt that's been disputed whereby the defender has been trying to resolve the matter with them?

 

Many thanks in advance and excuse my obvious lack of knowledge in this matter! I don't understand the legal aspects, I just know what about this company p1sses me off and seems wrong and corrupt!

 

I've also tried calling the incourt advisor, waiting on them calling me back.

 

Interestingly I don't think I was properly 'served'. The summons Form 1a was put through my door today, no envelope, nothing. For all they know I could be in the Bahamas, chance would be a fine thing!

[andydd]

EEEEEK! Well I've got my small claims summons through and now I'm bricking it.

 

here's wording of their claim "The pursuers claim from the defender the sum of £2,503.73 with interest on that sum at the rate of 8% annually from the date of service, together with the expenses of bringing that claim."

 

I'm at an utter loss as to how they can get away with this. I can't afford a solicitor coz I'm currently unemployed so need to try and defend this myself. I know courts operate on legalities not what's fair so would really appreciate some help putting together my response.

 

I have 4 options according to form:

 

1. Challenge jurisdiction of the court

2. State a defence

3. State a counterclaim

4. Dispute the amount of the claim.

 

I think for me it's 2 and 4 but how to word that in legal speak I'm unsure about. My main issues are as follows:

 

1. They state that in deed of conditions I must pay them. I have not received a copy of this deed but I believe it only refers to their management fee, not all other fees that they do not consult on like 'bin fee' (council empty bins), miscellaneous etc. I also wonder if there's any comeback as per Unfair Terms Contract Regulations in that this was never negotiated and they have an unfair advantage in that builder insists you use them I think is unfair?

2. They have refused, from word go to respond to my letters requesting an explanation of their charges. I hav requetsed details of miscellaneous fees, they refused, I requested details of other charges such as 'dummy cameras' when I didn't agree to that and can prove crime has not improved since their installation (my vehicle has been damaged for one).

3. Standards of work, cleaning has always been an issue. The residents committee recently met with them and gave them a proper ar$e kicking on cleaning, something I've been doing for years but gotten nowhere. They promised to resolve it, nothing's happened yet but I have always disputed cleaning fees on the basis that the standard of workmanship was unacceptable. I have photographic evidence of this.

4. This debt has been disputed for some time but they have refused to enter into dialogue with me on this and have instead proceeded straight to court without first trying to resolve it with me, do courts have any opinions on this sort of action? I can show all the letters and emails including their responses refusing point blank to acknowledge my complaints.

5. Can they claim interest on a debt that's been disputed whereby the defender has been trying to resolve the matter with them?

 

Many thanks in advance and excuse my obvious lack of knowledge in this matter! I don't understand the legal aspects, I just know what about this company p1sses me off and seems wrong and corrupt!

 

I've also tried calling the incourt advisor, waiting on them calling me back.

 

Interestingly I don't think I was properly 'served'. The summons Form 1a was put through my door today, no envelope, nothing. For all they know I could be in the Bahamas, chance would be a fine thing!

 

Surely legal aid would be available for you ?

 

I've just started my LVT court case against my landlord (I know we've discussed that this doesnt apply in Scotland), and being unemployed I had the £250 court fees waived (quite lucky i got in there in time) as Ive just been offered a job (for the next 3 month at least anyway).

 

Andy

[breakanegg]

Surely legal aid would be available for you ?

 

I've just started my LVT court case against my landlord (I know we've discussed that this doesnt apply in Scotland), and being unemployed I had the £250 court fees waived (quite lucky i got in there in time) as Ive just been offered a job (for the next 3 month at least anyway).

 

Andy

 

Nope, according to Scottish Courts Home Page legal aid isn't available for small claims which f..ks me right off (excuse language, I'm furious with this lot and with the STUPID, IDIOTIC ARCHAIC system in Scotland), grrrrrr

 

So I guess I have two options; allow property management cowboys to shaft me for the full amount, interest and court fees or defend myself (since I cannot afford a solicitor).

 

So I'd really appreciate some help putting together a reasonable defence, just haven't a clue where to start.

 

P.S. Congrats on the job

[andydd]

Nope, according to Scottish Courts Home Page legal aid isn't available for small claims which f..ks me right off (excuse language, I'm furious with this lot and with the STUPID, IDIOTIC ARCHAIC system in Scotland), grrrrrr

 

So I guess I have two options; allow property management cowboys to shaft me for the full amount, interest and court fees or defend myself (since I cannot afford a solicitor).

 

So I'd really appreciate some help putting together a reasonable defence, just haven't a clue where to start.

 

P.S. Congrats on the job

 

Actually many in England have strongly protested against our current leasehold system and suggest we move to a system closer to... eerr Scotland

 

I dont know much about the Scottish system but from what you have said it appears to operate in the same way as far as managemnet fees go, the difference is, here, that the management company is 'backed' by a landlord who effectively owns the land, and there is the benefit of having a low-cost LVT court, although its worth remembering that LVT courts (and recent changes in law) only came into existence after many years of homeowners beiong ripped off and bullied by (management agents)/landlords.

 

Andy

[breakanegg]

EEEEEK! Well I've got my small claims summons through and now I'm bricking it.

 

here's wording of their claim "The pursuers claim from the defender the sum of £2,503.73 with interest on that sum at the rate of 8% annually from the date of service, together with the expenses of bringing that claim."

 

I'm at an utter loss as to how they can get away with this. I can't afford a solicitor coz I'm currently unemployed so need to try and defend this myself. I know courts operate on legalities not what's fair so would really appreciate some help putting together my response.

 

I have 4 options according to form:

 

1. Challenge jurisdiction of the court

2. State a defence

3. State a counterclaim

4. Dispute the amount of the claim.

 

I think for me it's 2 and 4 but how to word that in legal speak I'm unsure about. My main issues are as follows:

 

1. They state that in deed of conditions I must pay them. I have not received a copy of this deed but I believe it only refers to their management fee, not all other fees that they do not consult on like 'bin fee' (council empty bins), miscellaneous etc. I also wonder if there's any comeback as per Unfair Terms Contract Regulations in that this was never negotiated and they have an unfair advantage in that builder insists you use them I think is unfair?

2. They have refused, from word go to respond to my letters requesting an explanation of their charges. I hav requetsed details of miscellaneous fees, they refused, I requested details of other charges such as 'dummy cameras' when I didn't agree to that and can prove crime has not improved since their installation (my vehicle has been damaged for one).

3. Standards of work, cleaning has always been an issue. The residents committee recently met with them and gave them a proper ar$e kicking on cleaning, something I've been doing for years but gotten nowhere. They promised to resolve it, nothing's happened yet but I have always disputed cleaning fees on the basis that the standard of workmanship was unacceptable. I have photographic evidence of this.

4. This debt has been disputed for some time but they have refused to enter into dialogue with me on this and have instead proceeded straight to court without first trying to resolve it with me, do courts have any opinions on this sort of action? I can show all the letters and emails including their responses refusing point blank to acknowledge my complaints.

5. Can they claim interest on a debt that's been disputed whereby the defender has been trying to resolve the matter with them?

 

Many thanks in advance and excuse my obvious lack of knowledge in this matter! I don't understand the legal aspects, I just know what about this company p1sses me off and seems wrong and corrupt!

 

I've also tried calling the incourt advisor, waiting on them calling me back.

 

Interestingly I don't think I was properly 'served'. The summons Form 1a was put through my door today, no envelope, nothing. For all they know I could be in the Bahamas, chance would be a fine thing!

 

Ok, so LVT Claims, Leasehold law etc are not relevant in this case as it's in Scotland. Also I can't claim legal aid for small claims cases apparently, so..... it's let them away with it or defend.

 

I'd like to defend and am looking for any advice on putting together a resonable defence. No clue where to start. Incourt advisor will only advise on court procedure. I could try citizen's advice but must reply by 21st January and doubt will be able to talk to anyone until at least 3rd January and would like to get an idea in my head beforehand. Many thanks in advance

[breakanegg]

Hi peeps,

 

First off apologies for the urgency of the post but I've just received an email this morning advising action is going to be taken tomorrow

 

Will try to make a long story short:-

 

I've been in dispute with property management company regarding their fees for a flat I owned in Scotland. They took me to small claims and were going to lose since I successfully defended when they panicked and announced they were instructing other solicitors and would be in touch in due course. As they took the action nothing happened with the court case.

 

I put the property on the market and got a buyer. When did search on some sort of title deed register this property management company had noted a debt against the deeds. The buyer's solicitor wanted to go ahead with the purchase and agreed if they withheld the amount of debt the property management company had registered against the deed as assurance until the matter was resolved in court.

 

I was very shocked when this property management company and their solicitor then wrote to the buyer's solicitor saying they were going to sue them for the debt which apparently they can do. This is disgusting and really underhanded but there doesn't seem to be anything I can do about it.

 

Got an email this morning from the buyer's solicitor saying if the matter is not resolved by tomorrow they are going to use the money and pay the debt in full.

 

Any help would be much appreciated.

 

Thanks in advance.

[IdaInFife]

debt against the deeds? do you mean an inhibition order? we need to know exactly what it is

[breakanegg]

debt against the deeds? do you mean an inhibition order? we need to know exactly what it is

 

No it's not an inhibition order. As far as I know an inhibition order can only be granted in court and if awarded would have prevented me from selling without paying the debt.

 

The factors solicitors have not taken any legal action, from what I can gather they have registered a debt against the property on the land registry and the law apparently allows them to pursue the buyer for that debt.

 

It's a very sneaky and underhanded way of trying to get the money paid without going through court because they know they will not win since they were not able to prove the debt. Some of their factoring fees were complete fiction and the small claims court told them to provide proof. So they stalled court action, registered a debt against the property on the land registry, waited until I sold it and are now going after the buyer who has retained funds from the sale to cover this (so it's MY money) and threatening them with court action if they don't use my money to pay the debt.

 

Actually makes me sick what they're doing.