hacking and paterson

[seriously fed up]

I dont know if this is the right place to post this. In some ways it might be residential and commercial lettings, but this is specifically Scottish. So if this is the wrong place, just move it and let me know.

In any case, I am not posting this for myself (for a change! ) but for my mother in law. She lives in a block of retirement flats which are factored by Hacking and Paterson, who keep hitting them with bills, often seeming for nothing or for something that doesnt seem important. Couple of examples

 

1. there are two "managers" - this is a block of retirement flats and this job is necessary so that if one of the residents is taken unwell they can pull on a chord and the manager will come up to help them (they even have to be up by 9.00 and stand on a pressure mat to show they are still alive in the morning! Sounds nasty to me) - so they have two, so that when one is "on duty" the other is "off". One lives in the block, but the other one- the "relief manager" - is only there when "on", and there is a flat elsewhere that she can live in but which is "tied" to the job. Part of the deal is that the residents pay the council tax for that flat BUT the present "relief" manager doesnt use it - she stays in her own place. BUT H&P still make the residents pay the Council tax for this tied flat. That's bad enough, but they now use the flat to rent out to the family of residents at another block of flats that they factor in the same town to stay overnight. So the residents pay the council tax for this flat and H&P pocket the fees they earn when people use the flat to stay overnight. If that wasnt bad enough, the residents in my mother in law's flat cant use that flat for when their family need to stay overnight.
   
2. the lift in the block (its three stories high, and the residents are all various stages of infirm, so it is necessary) is like a financial black hole. H&P wanted to replace it a year or so ago. Its not easy galvanising a bunch of 70/80/90 year old, not too well people into action, but a threatened bill for 8 grand each for replacement of the lift did - and there are 20 odd flats - I mean more than 100k to replace a lift. But since they couldnt get the residents to cough for a new lift, repairs and upgrades have been about as constant as they have been expensive.
   

That's just two of them. There are others - replacement of a perfectly good door entry system, replacement of a perfectly good emergency call system (which btw, goes through to Edinburgh now and not to the manager/ relief manager - they pull the chord, call goes to Edinburgh who contact the manager who lives in the flat as you come into the block).

I dont imagine for a minute that this is the only example of H&P milking a factoring job for all its worth (and most of the residents are reasonably comfortable without having money to burn). I have googled them and there are similar stories either of H&P or similar, but little in the way of advice on how to deal with them. If someone could either provide advice or point me in the direction of this, I would be grateful. You will be contributing to about 20 old people not getting ripped off any more.

Thanks

[Ell-enn]

Hi there, you say they are having a residents meeting tomorrow - have they invited their local MP and a representative from the council. I think that getting MP involved would be a good move.

[seriously fed up]

thanks for this and I have done that.

Interestingly there is a bill going through the Scottish Parliament to control these people - I dont know if they have an equivalent in England, which was why I posted on the Scotland site - and she is going to contact the bill's sponsor. I would have thought a picture of a whole bunch of OAPs with their zimmers, wheelchairs and walking sticks along with a caption saying "H&P are exploiting these pensioners" would be pretty good.

Thanks again. But if anyone with knowledge of Scottish law has any information factors - or where to look (particularly re how to get rid of them), I would be grateful.

[Ell-enn]

Have you invited the press ? this is ripe for the Sunday Post I would have thought

[seriously fed up]

didnt know the Sunday Post got as far as Yorkshire?

I think you are right - whether they are "up for it" though is a different matter - I would think the average age must be well into the 80s. I will pass on the advice though. thanks

[IdaInFife]

Govan law centre has someone that actually deals with these and i know that you have already contacted them so should help you there

 

BBC NEWS | Scotland | Scotland's Property Nightmare

 

Property Management Problems? | free legal help from Govan Law Centre, Glasgow, UK

 

Shelter Scotland - Property managers and factors

 

 

i've put these links up for relevvance and maybe help others

 

ellen has certainly made a good point and you should contact your local Mp and the sunay post would be interested in this i think as well

 

 

are they members of the PMA?

 

ida x

[Ell-enn]

didnt know the Sunday Post got as far as Yorkshire?

 

Yep, my local newsagent sells the Sunday Post, along with the Daily Record and Scotland on Sunday

[seriously fed up]

Thanx folks for your efforts - especially the link to Govan Law Centre, as it gave me a phone number for a Law Centre that covers their area, as they live out in the sticks.

And yes, quite shockingly they are not just members of PMA, but "stalwarts". I dare say there are worse examples (in fact I know there are), but they seem to me to be bad enough. The problem witih what they are doing is that often it can be explained by "admin error", but its too frequent for that. Or doing work which just doesnt seem needed (a few weeks ago they ripped out and replaced a perfectly good door answer system) - that sort of thing. And its probably not a surprise they are dealing with old people who just want a quiet life.

Good to hear that the good old Sunday Pest gets that far over the border. I always go by the Tom Nairn quote that "Scotland will never be free till the last Church of Scotland minister has been strangled with the last copy of the Sunday Post"

[Ell-enn]

I always go by the Tom Nairn quote that "Scotland will never be free till the last Church of Scotland minister has been strangled with the last copy of the Sunday Post"

 

[sharkfin]

Hmm. I've had big problems with various factors in the past, and there is little you can do about them, other than sack them and replace them with another factoring company, who will like as not be every bit as bad as the original ones. I've yet to find a half decent one.

 

Are the old folks' flats owner occupied, or do they rent them? I think if they are rented then the owner of the flats has final say over apppointing a factor, but if the flats are actually owned by the oldsters then I would try to do one of the following:

 

1. Self factoring. Do It Yourself. Have a meeting of all the residents, agree to sack Hacking & Paterson, agree that someone (perhaps family member of one of the oldsters?) will take over the responsibility for doing it, agree who it's going to be and draw up a rough plan of management. It'll be a time consuming and probably thankless task, but it'll resolve the problem immediately.

 

2. Arrange a residents' meeting and invite a representative from Hacking & Paterson along. Make sure there will be someone there who knows enough about property factoring to assert the rights of all the residents and explain to H&P that unnecessary repairs will not be tolerated. If H&P have a contract that allows them to carry out arbitrary repairs without running them by the residents and getting the go-ahead first, insist that it be revised immediately.

[seriously fed up]

Yes I know what you mean about going to all the trouble of getting rid of one shower of bandits and then appointing another one just as bad if not worse

The flats are owned by the residents, though the way that H&P just happen along and say "we are doing x and you will have to pay £y for it" you sometimes wouldnt think so.

I dont think they would be up for self factoring. An effective residents committee is probably the way forward, but that's against a background of about 30 flats with upwards of half of them just wanting a quiet life (either because of time of life or illness, or both). But yes, a residents committee that keep them on a short lead is the way to do it. And you know what its like with old people - some of them just want a quiet life, others are still fighting WW2.

[George1958]

I know a wee bit about lifts, if you can post up the report that says it needs to be replaced then I'll be happy to look at it.

 

Usually these reports come from the lift service company who have seen there historical income stream dry up due to the lack of new builds etc, so they are now targeting established buildings to try and make up that short fall.

 

They may try to fob you off by saying it does not meet current regulations, but usually by that they will mean LOLER and PUWER which are workplace regulations. Domestic premises are not covered by any workplace regulations.

 

It is a huge grey area under UK law, as they are probably quoting workplace regulations Scottish or English Law will not apply. These regulations are passed by Act of Parliament brought about by The Sectretary of State for Trade and Industry.

 

As I said post up the report and I'll take a look.

 

Because a lift is old and does not meet current build standards does not mean to say it is unsafe and requires replacement.

 

In fact I know a couple of companies who will come in and upgrade for a lot less than £100K.

 

Regards

 

G

 

Yes I know what you mean about going to all the trouble of getting rid of one shower of bandits and then appointing another one just as bad if not worse

The flats are owned by the residents, though the way that H&P just happen along and say "we are doing x and you will have to pay £y for it" you sometimes wouldnt think so.

I dont think they would be up for self factoring. An effective residents committee is probably the way forward, but that's against a background of about 30 flats with upwards of half of them just wanting a quiet life (either because of time of life or illness, or both). But yes, a residents committee that keep them on a short lead is the way to do it. And you know what its like with old people - some of them just want a quiet life, others are still fighting WW2.

[seriously fed up]

ta for getting back George. I dont know if they ever saw an actual report. That is one of really irritating things about them - usually its just "this work will be done on, please allow access" and if any one asks "why?" the reply is regulations (or "I dont know" - they quite often use their onsite "house manager" to do the dirty work) and this is followed with the bill. They know its oaps they are dealing with (another bone of contention)

With the lift though, they did fight them off to an "overhaul" rather than replacement. But I will keep an eye open for this is they come back on it again (or anything else) for justification.

Thanks

[George1958]

If you want to see them stutter and stammer all you need to ask is "What regulations are applicable to the lift then?"

 

G

 

ta for getting back George. I dont know if they ever saw an actual report. That is one of really irritating things about them - usually its just "this work will be done on, please allow access" and if any one asks "why?" the reply is regulations (or "I dont know" - they quite often use their onsite "house manager" to do the dirty work) and this is followed with the bill. They know its oaps they are dealing with (another bone of contention)

With the lift though, they did fight them off to an "overhaul" rather than replacement. But I will keep an eye open for this is they come back on it again (or anything else) for justification.

Thanks

[seriously fed up]

Thanks, I WILL remember that one

[h_1970]

I'd like to add my own experience here, which I am currently taking up with my local MSP

 

Well, apart from sending us a letter addressed to another customer, pertaining to their debt giving us the details - they have been bullying us and charging whatever they like and refusing to provide proof of what we are paying for.

 

 

 

My husband owns a flat we have been unable to sell since we moved in together four years ago. We have struggled to keep it, being threatened with repossession many times as we can't afford the mortgage but have let it out a few times simply to keep the payments up. All the while, we have struggled with the ever increasing factor bills. I am a mother of five and we have been effectively trying to upkeep two properties.

 

Hacking and Paterson have rushed us into court even when we have written to them explaining our financial difficulties and making our best payment offers - this has resulted in massive charges being added on and it's an ever-spiralling debt situation. We have asked them to clarify why the bills are going up and even, more recently made a request to see all the records of bills to the property etc under the data protection act, which they basically ignored apart from writing to us to say, "here is all the information we hold on your account - property details - and our name - A single line response, which frankly is just derogatory. They didn't respond at all to my request for their complaints procedure. I've made another one in writing and got a smug reply today as thus:

 

 

 

"To the matter of the Data Protection Act, we have provided you with all the information we are required to give under the act. We think your query relates to The Freedom of Information Act. As we are a non-public body, this doesn't apply."

 

I once complained about the state of the grounds and refused to pay for the work. They said everyone else was happy. Yet, curiously they changed contractors not long afterwards

 

So basically, they can charge anything they want for services and repairs to the property - make up a figure for the factor bills and pay something else in fact - and they are under NO obligation to show us any of the bills to corroborate the charges! This is ludicrous! And worse than this, they quite clearly feel secure in the knowledge that they can pretty much do (and charge) what they like.