Chandlers Visit

[CTArrears]

Hi folks,

i'm looking for some (probably quite urgent advice) on dealing with a Council Tax debt.

 

There's lots of questions here, but thanks to anyone who can help.

 

For varying reasons my council tax payments have gottne into quite bad arrears (approx £1300). I was delaing with the council (Swindon) about this, and thought we had an arrangement that they would hold off the application for a Liability Order until we had submitted out council tax benefit claim form. The claim would have approx halved the years council tax bill. For reasons only known to Swidon council, they progressed with the Liability Order regardless.

 

That was the last we heard, in about June. No payments have been made to the council since then.

 

Today, we had a visit from Chandlers Debt collectors. The conversation I had with the chap was short and finished with him saying that he's going to send people round to remove my goods.

 

After the visit I made a single payment of £500 to Swindon Council through the web payment system. I then phoned them to discuss what a viable way to proceed is, at which point they told me that they wouldn't discuss it with me as it's now being dealt with by Chandlers (although they did take my money!).

 

Unfortunately that £500 is my family's food and fuel budget for the month, so is not a payment that could ever be repeated.

 

My name isn't on the council tax bill, nor is it on the liability order. My partner' name is (she lives with me in my house). I understand that if the bailiffs manage to gain entry to the property then the fact that it's my property makes no difference. But can they goods which belong to me?

 

Also, I have a Ltd Company registered wth Companies House and a lot of very expensive equipment which was bought by that company - I ran the business from home. The company is currently dormant. Will they have any rights to remove goods owned by the company (and by default, owned by me)?

 

If they have no rights to anything owned by my company, can I sell all of our goods to the company to protect them?

 

Does anyone have any ideas how long it is likely to take the bailiffs to return to attempt to remove property?

 

Since i owe the money to Swindon Council, am I under any obligation to negotiate with the bailiffs about settling the debt? Or would the Council have sold the debt on? I have no objections to paying, but prefer not to get involved with a company that is likely to add charges for nothing. Dealing direct with the Council would seem to be a better way forward.

 

Anyway, thanks for reading. Hoping for some feedback soon

[Guest Happy Contrails]

am I under any obligation to negotiate with the bailiffs about settling the debt?

 

There is no statutory obliligation on you to trade with a bailiff in council tax arrears cases or even to let them into your house.

 

Or would the Council have sold the debt on?

 

Councils dont sell council tax in the same way debt collecting companies trade consumer debts. Bailiff companies register on a council's tender-list and bid for contracts to collect council tax/parking/rent debts. Its akin to no-win no-fee - and the bailiff doesnt get paid if nothing is collected.

 

I have no objections to paying, but prefer not to get involved with a company that is likely to add charges for nothing. Dealing direct with the Council would seem to be a better way forward.

 

Pay it online and the following advice will deal with the bailiffs.

 

DEALING WITH BAILIFFS ON YOUR DOORSTEP

 

 

1. ALWAYS! Keep your door LOCKED SHUT at all times. NEVER open the door to a bailiff - speak through a window or letterbox

2. ALWAYS! Hide your car - in the garage or park it well away

3. ALWAYS! Take a photo of the bailiff and his vehicle (better still use a video camcorder) and record everything

4. ALWAYS! Speak as little as possible to the bailiff

5. ALWAYS! Ask for his bailiff's certificate number

6. ALWAYS! Ask which court issued his certificate

7. ALWAYS! Ask for a full breakdown of his fees IN WRITING

8. ALWAYS! Ask who the creditor is (if you don't know)

9. ALWAYS! Pay using a credit card, avoid cash and debit cards if possible

10. ALWAYS! If you have grounds, get an appeal lodged immediately (parking tickets) - it stops enforcement

 

1. NEVER! Sign any documents handed to you by a bailiff

2. NEVER! Phone a bailiff (unless asking him which Court issued his certificate)

3. NEVER! Admit any debt

4. NEVER! Say or "confirm" your name address or date of birth

 

This is the Official advice on dealing with council tax bailiffs: National Debtline England & Wales | Debt Advice | Factsheet 02 Bailiffs And Council Tax but don't waste your energy complaining to bailiffs trade associations. They are NOT industry regulators.

[CTArrears]

Happy Contrails: thanks for your response.

 

I understand that not letting the bailiff into the house in the first place is the best way of protecting everybodys property, however, I can well imagine a scenario where my 3 year old son opens the door and lets him in....or something similar.

 

Just a thought, but how do property boundaries work? If i, for example, put a lock on the garden gate and they (somehow) are granted access into the garden, does that then mean that they have gained access to the property as a whole? Obviously, that in turn would mean that they would be allowed to force open the back door.....

[Guest Happy Contrails]

A bailiff cannot enter a property when a child is home alone. A child is a person under 18, or under 16 in Scotland.

 

The boundary of your property are your windows and doors, a bailiff can climb a fence or gate and enter a property though an aperture that is unlocked. Bailiffs cannot commit breaking & entering or burglary.

[CTArrears]

hi HC. Thanks agan for your response. That's cleared up one issue.

 

I'm working on the assumption that I am not in when they call round, and they manage to trick my easily flustered partner into letting them into the house. Or possibly just that it's impossible to keep all windows and doors closed and locked 24/7 and they manage to gain entry through a 'slip in security'.

 

Answers to my questions below would be very much appreciated:

 

Can they goods which belong to me if my name isn't on the liability order?

Can they take goods owned by a ltd company that is owned by me?

If not, can I just sell all goods in the house to the ltd company to protect them?

How long is it likely to take for them to come back to attempt a removal?

[Guest Happy Contrails]

Bailiffs rarely enter an empty property, it opens a can of worms with his liability insurer whose policies usually exclude liability cover for bailiffs entering empty properties. Your partner needs to be aware not to open the door until this matter is resolved.

 

1. No.

2. Yes - they are your goods.

3. No, its called disposition of assets

4. How long is a piece of string - each bailiff to himself.

[CTArrears]

And once again....i say thank you for your response!

 

So, the upshot seems to be that everything owned (i.e. purchased by) either myself or my company can't be touched. Which is good, since that's most of the contents of the house.

 

Well, hopefully a letter to the council will get them to take the case away from the bailiffs. If not it's gonna be a long winter.

[Guest Happy Contrails]

Tweak this as needed.

 

 

Council Tax (Enforcements) Department

Invincible Borough Council

Address 1

Address 2

Address 3

Postcode

 

[DATE]

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Re: [YOUR NAME & ANY REF]: Visit by your bailiff on [DATE]

 

I have had an opportunity to seek advice and I write on the understanding that case law has ruled an authority is liable for its bailiffs.

 

On [DATE] I was visited by your bailiff collecting unpaid council tax. We were unable to reach an amicable resolve and the bailiff showed threatening behaviour and became defensive and vexatious in nature. He made unrealistic demands of money which are way beyond my means and has been caught cheating with his fees by charging unlawful amounts contrary to regulations.

 

I now ask the Council to:

 

a) Take the case back from the bailiff.

b) Accept my original offer to pay £[AMOUNT] a week to clear the arrears

c) Pay me a reasonable compensation for my inconvenience and for my efforts in seeking discovery of information and

d) Receiving an over-zealous bailiff acting for you making unrealistic demands of money and defrauding me with his fees.

 

If you fail to satisfactorily complete the above I will automatically escalate the complaint to the local government ombudsman in fourteen days from the date of this letter. Please treat this letter as Stage 1.

 

Due to my circumstances I am unable to pay the debt as demanded by the bailiffs and I will make payment of £[AMOUNT] each month for [NUMBER OF] monthly installments with a final installment of £[AMOUNT]. This may seem a long time but it's all I can afford and allows me to pay future liabilities without falling into arrears. I confirm I am not refusing to pay this debt.

 

This letter is delivered by Royal Mail and deem properly served on you by the ordinary course of post under Section 7 of the Interpretation Act 1978. It is now your responsibility and in your own interests this letter is handed to the relevant person within your organisation.

 

Yours Sincerely

 

[NAME]

Enc 1st payment.

[MRSWESTHAM]

Subbing with interest Good Luck I HATE Chandlers !!!

[CTArrears]

MRSWESTHAM: having dealt with them once for 2 minutes I can understand why you hate them!

 

 

During my time trawling this site for info, I came accross a reference saying there is a law that stipulates that a Council is responsible for the bailiffs is uses. I can't seem to find it now. Can anyone tell me what it is?

 

I'm going for a slightly more softly softly approach in my letter to the council. This has been dragging on for a while and I'm concerned that if I play hard ball with them they might just fight back.

 

The bailiffs, of course, are a different matter.

[CTArrears]

One more thing: when the chap from Chandlers was here, he attempted to pass me a letter that wasn't addressed to me - it was addressed to my partner. I refused to accept it, which he didn't seem overly pleased about.

 

He then walked off. My partner went out to the front of the house this morning to fnd the letter dumped in an envelope in the front garden. Very wet.

 

Does this hold any significance to anything? Why not just post it through the letterbox?

[spamheed]

These "people" will simply claim that they left the letter, it matters not where they left it. If you start to play their game, they will win.

 

If the house and all of its contents belong to you, yet the debt is solely in your partners name then you need to send a Statutory Declaration stating as much, they cannot then assume that the property belongs to the debtor, because they have been informed that this is not the case. If they then attend a property owned by someone who doesn't have any liability, then they are scuppered and they know it

 

I found myself in a very similar situation when my G/F moved in with me.

 

I wrote to them stating thet the house and contents belonged to me solely, produced the Stat Dec to verify it and told them if they entered my property under any pretext I would sue them to oblivion. every time they wrote to my G/F I wrote a response from me and another from her confirming that what I was saying was correct. send all letters recorded and get proof of delivery

 

My G/F also wrote several letters telling them the same thing, that the house wasn't hers and there was nothing in the house belonging to her.

 

Once they know that the house and its contents don't belong to your property, and levies or charges they apply are invalid and should need to be removed

[slgsue]

I to live in Swindon and have had the "pleasure" of Chandlers bailiffs at my door! I dont live in the best area in Swindon and have seen this one particular bailiffs red van around where I live dozens of times!

 

When he arrived at my property he insisted on adding a charge for the hire of this damn vehicle, which I clearly stated to him I would not pay as this van is clearly not hired and if it was the hire charge was excessive as he uses it every day so why on gods earth should the charge be directed only at me!!!!

 

Also whilst very cold and wet made him stand on my doorstep....... point blank refused to allow entry whilst I examined (with the door closed) his levy of charges. Subsequently I told him that they were clearly excessive and I would be speaking with both the council and his offices and no monies would be paid until these ridiculous charges were removed.

 

I did both these things and as I had no prior knowledge of an impending visit was lucky enough to only end up with £60 worth of charges which I paid in full the same day. In hindsight I wish I had argued these too but it was a pleasure to tell them that should they ever darken my doorstep again I would be suing them for tresspassing!!!

 

I hate these people and hope that with forums like this people learn their rights and kick their backsides into place!!!!!!!!

[Guest Happy Contrails]

was lucky enough to only end up with £60 worth of charges which I paid in full the same day. In hindsight I wish I had argued these too

 

The law says its £24.50 but you can still reclaim unlawful bailiffs charges up to six years after you paid them.

[slgsue]

ooooooooooooh right, any ideas as to how to go about that?

[Guest Happy Contrails]

Follow this procedure: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bailiffs-sheriff-officers/223322-equita-help-needed.html#post2472141

[slgsue]

Right I have emailed a copy of the letter (changed to meet my needs of course!) to both the bailiff offices and the town mayor and will be posting tonight.

 

Feel quite excited to be able to rightfully complain and hopefully be compensated!!!!

[seanamarts]

CTArrears here is a link to an organisation who can help free of charge. they only help people in situations like your partners, very knowledgeable people too not to say that the help you have already been given in here has not been helpful, but you can talk to these people on the phone and they help with letters etc and may even get this debt back with the council, its worth a shot,

Supporting Vulnerable Households | Z2K Zacchaeus 2000 Trust

[CTArrears]

seanamarts: thanks for the link. For some reason I didn't get an email notification about your post so i've only just seen it. I'll give them a call in due course.

 

By way of an update, I had a letter back from the Council this morning and they have refused to take the account back from Chandlers and will not enter into repayment negotiations, saying that I will have to deal direct with Chandlers. So far Chandlers have not visited again, nor have they written.

 

So, the next step. I believe the outstanding balance is now in the region of £800, a lot of which (£450 ish) is the rest of this years Coucil tax bill.

 

If I transfer the bill into my name then presumably the outstanding debt in my partners name reduces by £450 to a more manageable £350?

I can then pay the council at normal rates, minus any benefits to which I am entitled. Is there anything to prevent me from doing this? I am just very nervous that the Council may take a dim view of this.

[Guest Happy Contrails]

I can then pay the council at normal rates, minus any benefits to which I am entitled.

 

Have you seen this yet? A vulnerable person means http://www.dca.gov.uk/enforcement/agents02.htm#part10

[CTArrears]

Hi Happy Contrails,

thanks for the link, i've seen the list of criteria that may make someone vulnerable before, unfortunately we don't appear to meet any of the criteria.

 

My partner is on maternity leave (i.e. not pregnant!) and is employed...albeit only receiving Stat Maternity Pay.

I am unemployed, but it's not my name on the bill!

 

I have explained all of this to the Council.

[CTArrears]

The saga continues:

 

Our situation has changed a little since the last update. My partner is pregnant. Again. On top of that, we're moving house in the near future (out of the current Council Tax area). I informed Chandlers of this in writing earlier this week (i didn't say we are moving, just that the bill is being reissued to a reduced amount), making it clear that our case falls into the category of 'vulnerability' and requesting that they return the case back to the Council.

 

They wrote back stating that "Unfortunatly we are unable to return your account back to Swindon Borough Council as we do not have the authority to do so".

 

Is that right? Surely they have an option of what accounts they handle, as would any other private bailiff's company?

[ploddertom]

If I transfer the bill into my name then presumably the outstanding debt in my partners name reduces by £450 to a more manageable £350?

I can then pay the council at normal rates, minus any benefits to which I am entitled. Is there anything to prevent me from doing this? I am just very nervous that the Council may take a dim view of this.

 

The chances are that you both will be listed for the CT Bill in which case you become jointly liable and it will probably do you no good at all. Your best course of action is totally blank the Bailiff and pay what you can afford direct to the Council, as you have found previously it works. Eventually the Bailiff gets miffed and hands it back to the Council anyway.

 

PT

[CTArrears]

ploddertom: thanks for your reply.

 

The Liability Order only has my partners name on it, therefore making her, well, Liable. Unless I'm missing something?

 

Does anyone have any thoughts as to why Chandlers think that they don't have the 'authority' to return the case to the Council?

[slgsue]

It sounds like your partner could well be considered as "vulnerable" now that she is pregnant again (congratulations by the way:))

 

Chandlers are just bullies and want to get as much money out of people as possible so in my opinion, probably not worth much that is why they say that they dont have the authority to return case to council!!!