cabot and providian help required

[debt4get]

had an old providian account, I believe mostly made up of charges, received letters from cabot pay up or else. asked for cca, and they sent below. advised them that this is not cca but application form, can anyone let me know if enforceable?

also am trying to reclaim charges but providian no longer exist and cabot are saying they cannot due to age of account get hold of any more paperwork..any suggestions, and what should be my next letter to cabots?

[sillygirl1]

Tell them this does not comply with a CCA request, it is a simple application form and does not contain any prescribed terms and conditions and as such is completely unenforceable.

 

If this is all they have then they CANNOT proceed with court proceedings as they would look very silly indeed.

 

Game over I think.

[ScabHunter]

Welcome to the Crapbot merrygoround. The pre-contractual application form doesn't have anything resembling prescribed terms on it, so it is completely unenforceable.

 

Read CCA 1974 Section 61(1)(a) and Section 127(3) for the relevant legislation.

 

Of course, getting some of the judges in our county courts to follow the law is another matter altogether.

 

If Providian no longer exists, Crapbot must have bought the alleged debt from someone. Didn't you get the usual fake NoA?

 

SH

[debt4get]

already told em they insist it is enforceable, but then they would...didnt think for one moment it was any use, will have to put another letter together, unless anyone has anything i can use?

[debt4get]

dont remember it? and have kept all my paperwork, this has now been going on for about 4 years, I am interested in case they try court,,of going down illegal charges route, but crapbot insist no more paperwork available, so if they do go to court how they going to prove i spent money with no accounts?

[ScabHunter]

Here is a possible letter to send them if you are just looking for a quick template -

 

http://www.consumerforums.com/resources/templates-library/86-debt-collectors/582-possible-letter-when-a-questionable-agreementapplication-is-sent

 

You will need to change the word "yourselves" to "Providian" in the first paragraph, and there is a typo in the last line - "an" should be "any".

 

SH

[ScabHunter]

This is just the typical Crapbot behaviour. They will just blatantly deny the most obvious of realities in order to try to extract money under false pretences.

 

 

Can you scan in any letter they have sent you where they claim this is enforceable? I would love to see what their “reasoning” is for this one!

 

 

SH

[debt4get]

thanks scabhunter will send it off, if nothing else it will give me more time, and look like i am answering them and not ignoring them

[debt4get]

yeah give me 5 minutes and I;ll post up their latest

[debt4get]

here is their latest

[debt4get]

sorry page 2 blurred it basically says just ring us to arrange pay the arguments they put forward are on page 1

[ashmk]

Cabot are a waste of time. I have an issue with an argos card with them which is totally unenforcable. I have written to them and they tell me the same old bul about it being enforcable.

In my opinion the only way to deal with cabot once you have established its unenforcable is to just ignor them, file what letters they may send and get on with your life.

By writing to them you are doing 2 things. Firstly your giving them a reason to think you care so they will keep writing and secondly your wasting money on stamps.

Cabot will never admit its unenforcable. Forget them, stop sending letters and move on. I did and after a year the letters have pretty much stopped now. I get mabey 1 every 6 months which I file under ignor.

Seriously, They must have spent more on sending me letters than the unenforcable debt was ever worth.

[friendinneed]

Just a quick note to say I was in the same position as you and CCA'd them. They couldnt produce the CCA and after about 6 months of letters going back and forth they sent me a letter to say that the agreement was unenforceable. Hoorah.

 

Dont phone them, put it all in writing and stick yo your guns:)

[ScabHunter]

This is the usual drivel and lies they quote on every letter, except in this case they haven't even mentioned the relevant Section 127(3).

 

Their quote from s61(1) is not complete - they have conveniently missed important words out.

 

Have a look at this post, and the following one -

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/223570-cabot-financial-dealing-cabot-2.html#post2479594

 

Ashmk is perfectly correct in stating that Crapbot will never agree with obvious facts, and will continue to send out threat letters full of deception and lies in an attempt to wear you down.

 

The only grey area is how you counter such behaviour. Ignoring them is certainly the cheapest way, but it is important not to give them any initiative in court. If you are going to ignore them, I feel it is important to write a detailed letter outlining the facts, quoting the CCA 1974 S61(1) and S127(3) in full, pointing out where they have tried to blatantly deceive, and making it clear that that is your final response.

 

Then, you will be able to show the relevant letters to the court, and prove that you have been more than reasonable in responding to them.

 

SH

[debt4get]

agree ignoring them is cheapest, but having read your thread, dealing with cabot, do not want to give them any initiative, will put together letter quoting cca1974 s61 and s127 and at least if any court action is taken at least i will have responded, also from memory doesnt the document have to be signed by both the debtor and creditor, which they have accidently left off their letter ' is signed in the prescribed manner by both the debtor.....

[debt4get]

am looking through paperwork they supplied and i notice that the original debt was for 800 yet after paying 5 quid a month for 2-3 years the account now stands at 1400!! can I also use this against them in any way? am busy putting together a letter to send rescinding their arguments will post before sending for anyone to take a look

[debt4get]

With reference to your letter dated 5th Oct 2009,

I believe that what you have replied to my concerns regarding the alleged CCA, is nothing more than ‘smoke and mirrors’ and has been selectively designed in order to confuse and deceive.

A copy of your letter will be sent to the FOS along with this letter detailing your points, and a complaint will be made against yourselves.

I draw your attention to the Consumer Credit Act 1974, S61(1) and your response, where you have stated

‘A regulated agreement is not properly executed unless

(a)A document in the prescribed form itself containing all the prescribed terms and conforming to the regulations (Consumer Credit (Agreement) Regulation 1983) under section 60(1) is signed in the prescribed manner both by the debtor…

You conveniently forget to add the ending to this part of S61(1), which actually states

A regulated agreement is not properly executed unless

(a) a document in the prescribed form itself containing all the prescribed terms

and conforming to regulations under section 60(1) is signed in the prescribed

manner both by the debtor or hirer and by or on behalf of the creditor or owner,

and

(b)the document embodies all the terms of the agreement, other than implied terms,

and

© the document is, when presented or sent to the debtor or hirer for signature, in

such a state that all its terms are readily legible.

Perhaps you would be so kind to point out in the document that you supplied, where the creditor has signed? because as much as I peruse the said document I am unable to find this important omission.

I await your response that this account is now closed and my balance reverted to zero

Yours faithfully

this is a copy of the letter I have so far put together if anyone has anything to add would be grateful for any and all input

[ScabHunter]

There is just one thing here which is definitely wrong, and that is saying you will complain to the FOS. Had you said the OFT, it would have been right.

 

The FOS won't look at any complaint unless the alleged creditor has given a final response, and they never take cases based on unenforceability anyway. They always say that is for the courts to decide.

 

The OFT don't look into individual complaints but they do keep them on record so it is important to make them aware of what is happening.

 

I notice there are other issues here with the balance remaining ridiculously high despite your making continued payments. There may be something in this which you could take to the FOS.

 

It is worth trying to do as it does relieve Crapbot of £500 whatever the FOS decides.

 

SH

[debt4get]

hasnt gone off yet was waiting for any responses so will change that to OFT, as you say the balance has gone up from 800 to 1400 how are crapbot allowed to put interest on account I thought that once defaulted and then sold on that all interest payment to dca's were not allowed, or am I wrong?

[debt4get]

this is my 2nd draft any comments additions gratefully accepted.

With reference to your letter dated 5th Oct 2009,

I believe that what you have replied with to my concerns regarding the alleged CCA, is nothing more than ‘smoke and mirrors’ and has been selectively designed in order to confuse and deceive.

A copy of your letter will be sent along with my complaint to the OFT alongside this letter detailing your points.

I draw your attention to the Consumer Credit Act 1974, S61(1) and your response, where you have stated

‘A regulated agreement is not properly executed unless

(a) A document in the prescribed form itself containing all the prescribed terms and conforming to the regulations (Consumer Credit (Agreement) Regulation 1983) under section 60(1) is signed in the prescribed manner both by the debtor…

You conveniently forget to add the ending to this part of S61(1), which actually states

A regulated agreement is not properly executed unless

(a) a document in the prescribed form itself containing all the prescribed terms

and conforming to regulations under section 60(1) is signed in the prescribed

manner both by the debtor or hirer and by or on behalf of the creditor or owner,

and

(b)the document embodies all the terms of the agreement, other than implied terms,

and

© the document is, when presented or sent to the debtor or hirer for signature, in

such a state that all its terms are readily legible.

In other words, for a regulated agreement to be properly executed, ALL THREE CONDITIONS must be met. Condition a), which must be met, could scarcely be more explicit - "a document in the prescribed form itself containing all the prescribed terms"

 

If you read the entire Section 61(1) as I have quoted it above, it is impossible to understand how anyone could consider that the prescribed terms can be in another document. The word "embody" clearly has no such meaning.

Perhaps you would be so kind to point out in the document that you supplied where the creditor has signed, and where the prescribed terms are within this document because as much as I peruse the said document I am unable to find these important omissions.

I am also interested in how the original alleged debt of some £800 from your own accounting is now at £1400, I would also like to know who actually now owns this account and if it is yourselves where is the Notification of Assignment

I await your response that this account is now closed and my balance reverted to zero

Yours faithfully

[debt4get]

have posted before on this subject

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/224128-cabot-providian-help-required.html

 

now they have come back with some more self serving rubbish about how the agreement is enforceable by the fact that 'the date stamp under the heading for office use only serves as a signature for providian, therefore i can confirm that this agreement has been executed.

 

also states the balance has been increasing as a result of crapbot apply interest to your account as you have not maintained regular payments, may i advise you that we are entitled to add interest as per terms and conditions of the credit agreement

 

now this debt has increased greatly due to their adding interest in fact it has doubled over the years even when i was paying them, it was one of the reasons i first found this site, the day they had the agreement they immediately added 500 quid to the account, i told them on phone this morning if they are so sure of the agreement lets put it before a judge and see.

 

so do i ignore and wait or what next? any input welcome guys

[Pinky69]

I would just ignore them. There is nothing they can do to enforce it and they cannot charge anything that is not in the agreement. Right now Cabot are chasing everything in the aftermath of their £6 million loss. When they discover it doesn't work, they may very well go down the tubes.

[mustang67]

Ignore the jokers. Because they cannot provide me with a CCA,they recently contacted me saying they had proof that debt existed.

This ' proof ' was a copy of a statement from over six years ago.

Thank you very much Cabot !!!!!!

[Seminole]

I would just ignore them. There is nothing they can do to enforce it and they cannot charge anything that is not in the agreement. Right now Cabot are chasing everything in the aftermath of their £6 million loss. When they discover it doesn't work, they may very well go down the tubes.

 

We can but hope

[debt4get]

can a dca legally add interest to an account (credit card) if you do not/or miss a payment?

thanks guys