A bit of advice needed.

[Doc Green]

Hello there.

 

Recently a colleague was suspended and later sacked for Gross Misconduct due to "reasonable belief" of theft. The reason they were brought up on charges was for removing a sale item from the shop floor with the intention of buying it but then changed their mind but didn't place the item back on the sale area but left it in the dispensary/stockroom area in the back of the store.

We have all done this for items we are buying, in effect putting the items away for us to purchase at a later time and have used this method under various managers and supervisors for at least 6years or more.

This is now classed as stealing from the company and we all fear that the company will use this against us all one by one to dismiss all of us.

 

My question really is this, if I change from one store in the chain and take up work with another store could I still be chased up and investigated for this procedure? I don't have anything to hide and have never done anything wrong - however I feel like I can't work with my current manager and supervisor any longer (thats another slightly connected story) and that we all going to be witchhunted one by one for this or any other various reason.

 

It is perhaps more complicated than it appears and my partner has more knowledge and experience in this area than I do but I just want to make sure I am safe.

[dx_]

Hello there.

 

Recently a colleague was suspended and later sacked for Gross Misconduct due to "reasonable belief" of theft.

 

We have all done this for items we are buying, in effect putting the items away for us to purchase at a later time and have used this method under various managers and supervisors for at least 6years or more.

 

This is now classed as stealing from the company and we all fear that the company will use this against us all one by one to dismiss all of us.

 

Has this been updated in your handbook? Have you received anything from the company to say this is now classed as theft? Gross Misconduct?

 

Why do you feel the company is looking to dismiss, one by one?

 

Hello there.

 

My question really is this, if I change from one store in the chain and take up work with another store could I still be chased up and investigated for this procedure? I don't have anything to hide and have never done anything wrong - however I feel like I can't work with my current manager and supervisor any longer (thats another slightly connected story) and that we all going to be witchhunted one by one for this or any other various reason.

 

It is perhaps more complicated than it appears and my partner has more knowledge and experience in this area than I do but I just want to make sure I am safe.

If there is serious doubt and more importantly any serious suspicion against you, your manager will disclose this to your next manager. I only say this from experience, working as a manager. So yes, it can follow you.

 

But saying that, it doesn't seem like theft to me. The intention is there to pay and no unpaid items have been removed from the premise.

[Doc Green]

Has this been updated in your handbook? Have you received anything from the company to say this is now classed as theft? Gross Misconduct?

 

Why do you feel the company is looking to dismiss, one by one?

The handbook has not been updated but isn't the best one out there. The colleague was only dismissed this morning so has yet to go through the appeals process (they are doing). Apparently there was an announcement mad a short while ago, when they cannot say but neither we nor our manager have received anything (although our manager is not the best one in the world and often conveniently forgets things or changes their mind on things)

The company has many people who are in managerial positions who are all in cahoots and back each other over many things and a lot of underhandedness goes on behind the scenes. The current manager is inept and nothing is good enough (not even a the highest ever mark for the whole company on a mystery customer report for myself). The Supervisor has been with the company 6months, hasn't got the experience needed for the job and takes time off, strolls in late etc all the time and nothing gets said as her mother is a high ranking manager.

The working atmosphere is so tense as to be stressful for the other workers in the store and we all hate the thought of going in there. Even customers hate the way it has become and have made several complaints about the manager to head office.

 

If there is serious doubt and more importantly any serious suspicion against you, your manager will disclose this to your next manager. I only say this from experience, working as a manager. So yes, it can follow you.

 

But saying that, it doesn't seem like theft to me. The intention is there to pay and no unpaid items have been removed from the premise.

My OH thought this as well but wasn't 100% sure. I know I haven't done wrong but obviously am nervous as if one of us can be sacked for this then any of us can based on no evidence.

[scousegeezer]

Doc Green,

For theft to take place a pesron has to take property with the intention of permanently depriving the owner of it. They also have to take the property without lawful authority or reasonable excuse. Taking the property from the display with the intention of purchasing it - DOES NOT fulfil the criteria of theft. The only possible wrong doing is if the staff handbook specifically prohibits staff from doing this. Again it would not be theft , just a discipline matter. I would dearly love to see the evidence provided at the discipline hearing to justify this "discipline charge". See also the thread by deathbycrayons - hubby suspended for theft.

 

It appears to me that employers are using this type of thing to get rid of people , because they do not want to pay out redundancy money; as they are aware with the economic climate that they will have to reduce staffing levels. If staff have stolen property from their employers, why are the employers not having the member of staff arrested for theft. I WILL TELL YOU WHY - because they know that people have not stolen anything and the police would just laugh at them. Being a retired Police Officer, I would laugh at the stories on this site, if it wasnt for the tragic consequences of the action from employers.

 

THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO WAY, THAT YOUR FRIEND SHOULD HAVE BEEN DISCIPLINED FOR THEFT. THERE DOES NOT APPEAR TO BE ONE SCRAP OF EVIDENCE FROM THE CIRCS THAT YOU HAVE RELATED.

 

Was your friend served with ALL the EVIDENCE against him/her, prior to the hearing . How long for. Did they have a union rep/friend with them for the hearing. Have they/ will they have the notes of the hearing sent to them prior to the appeal procedure.

 

Cheers -Scousegeezer

[Doc Green]

Everyone is still a bit shocked at the moment over that incident. Apparently according to the staff member who went in with them, as she couldn't prove she hadn't taken it from the store then they had Reasonable Belief that she had taken it and as such was guilty of Gross misconduct. She was initially interviewed on Tuesday with the allegation and suspended with pay and the Disciplinary scheduled for today (Mon). Written evidence was given on Friday (i think) and we all signed self made statements regarding the procedures for buying store items in the pharmacy. I made another statement regarding an incident that was linked to the alleged theft.

 

My own research has shown that they are trying to follow procedure but that my colleague does have grounds for and is going for appeal. We are all worried that they are going to try the same with us. Basically I am thinking that if they try it with me that I want the Police involved straight away. Would this be sensible? Obviously I do have nothing to hide and have said that it can't be stealing if it hasn't left the premises.

[scousegeezer]

Doc Green,

If any member of staff is accused of something similar in the future, I would recommend that they tell management to call the Police if management think they have stolen something. Then the officers who attend to take the report can laugh at them on my behalf. She does not have to prove she didnt take it from the store - they have to prove she DID. You are right regarding the property not having left the store. As I said before , it would be a joke if it wasn't for the serious , ney dire consequences.

 

Cheers - Scousegeezer

[Doc Green]

Doc Green,

If any member of staff is accused of something similar in the future, I would recommend that they tell management to call the Police if management think they have stolen something. Then the officers who attend to take the report can laugh at them on my behalf. She does not have to prove she didnt take it from the store - they have to prove she DID. You are right regarding the property not having left the store. As I said before , it would be a joke if it wasn't for the serious , ney dire consequences.

 

Cheers - Scousegeezer

Thankyou for re-assuring me. My OH agrees with and said pretty much what you have re-iterated and that was when the whole process started last week. We have long had problems with the company and we have long had suspicions that they wish to close our branch down and relocate some staff and lose the others in whatever way/manner.

Thanks again I appreciate it.

 

I'll keep you all updated on current and future events.

[scousegeezer]

Doc Green,

My pleasure. I will keep an eye out for any developments.

Just as an aside, you have the right pen name for this subject - or is that why you chose it . Dixon of .......................

 

Cheers - Scousegeezer.

[dx_]

The handbook has not been updated but isn't the best one out there. The colleague was only dismissed this morning so has yet to go through the appeals process (they are doing). Apparently there was an announcement mad a short while ago, when they cannot say but neither we nor our manager have received anything

They can't say it's GM if it has not been clearly stated in your handbook. It needs to be in writing for all employees to be aware of.

 

In that case, it seems you are are right in thinking that they are cleaning house but their cutting corners is going to get them in a lot of bother.

 

Get hold of the current copy of the handbook as backup if they try the same (good evidence if needed).

 

Great advice from scousegeezer.

[Doc Green]

They can't say it's GM if it has not been clearly stated in your handbook. It needs to be in writing for all employees to be aware of.

 

In that case, it seems you are are right in thinking that they are cleaning house but their cutting corners is going to get them in a lot of bother.

 

Get hold of the current copy of the handbook as backup if they try the same (good evidence if needed).

 

Great advice from scousegeezer.

Taken from the handbook re Gross Misconduct..

 

"Theft or other dishonesty including taking goods for resale without making payment or having written authorisation..."

 

My OH has said that her Appeals may well fail as it appears they made their mind up before the disciplinary and she'll have to go with the outcome and hope the Tribunal rules in her favour to clear her name.

Due to her job being a trained profession, she may find it extremely difficult to find work in this field now so in effect not only her working life but also her career is in serious freefall.

 

My OH has got me building a portfolio of evidence to protect me from any future action if it comes down to it.

[dx_]

Taken from the handbook re Gross Misconduct..

 

"Theft or other dishonesty including taking goods for resale without making payment or having written authorisation..."

 

1] No goods were 'taken'. Only removed from the sale display.

2] You would only pay for them if you were taking them away with you off their premises.

 

"Theft or other dishonesty including taking goods for resale without making payment or having written authorisation...

 

According to this, they are not covered. It's not even stated as GM in their handbook...? How on earth did they dismiss your colleague for GM? They seem to be making it up as they go along. Unless it has been listed as GM or cleverly worded elsewhere. But I know you said it was not a problem for 6 years. And that everyone did the same.

 

We also do the same, remove items to purchase to the back. The individual will tell the manager that they intend to purchase the item(s) within a certain time. If however they change their minds, the item is taken back to display.

 

It's a good idea that you are preparing yourself. I hope the colleague who was dismissed sends in the appeal and fights back. More and more companies seem to be getting rid of people for GM without actual cause. Is it any wonder the ET is inundated.

Edited September 29, 2009 by dx_