Paid ticket out of time, now bankrupt yet Bailiffs still banging on my door

[stevekennedy]

Tricky one this, hopefully someone can advise me please!

 

I received a parking ticket in November 2008, and due to various money problems at the time i didn't pay it, It built up to £110 due in March which again wasn't paid.

 

I made myself bankrupt on 28th April 2009, and after taking advice I used the little money i had to clear my outstanding parking tickets and a court fine i received for a speeding offence before going bankrupt as these would be outside the bankruptcy and would still be owed regardless. These were paid on 24th April.

 

I thought this was the end of it but unknown to me, the parking fine was passed onto Marstons Bailiffs on 21st April. As the Council payment line was via an automated service, the debit card payment i made was rejected and paid back onto my card....... this account was frozen on 28th April and I had no knowledge of this payment being returned.

 

I spoke to someone at the Council who said that they were not obliged to tell me the payment was cancelled and that I had had plently of notice to pay so its not their problem. this is true but at the time I was in such a financial mess that letters and bills just didnt get opened. the Bailiff from Marstons was just as helpful, and told me that regardless of the circumstances it needed to be paid or they would remove my possessions.

 

I thought that at the time of my banruptcy everything was in order, so when i received a warning from Marstons, i didnt read it properly and assumed it was for an old debt. I therefore havent done anything towards paying it and did not realise until now i was legally obliged to pay it. The debt to Marstons is now £317. I do not have this money, and have no means of paying in now or in the near future..... I'm out of work and am barely surviving on the little benefits i get.

 

What options do i have now?

 

Does my Bankruptcy affect this at all? after all, they did not come and take any of my possessions at the time of bankruptcy as they considered that there was nothing of significant value.

 

Would the circumstances above qualify me to make some kind of application to the court for more time to pay the debt or even better for it to be reduced to an affordable amount?

 

What should i do about the Bailiffs in the meantime? He's promised another 'visit' tomorrow

 

Thanks in advance

[Jamberson]

Tricky. You don't really have any legal routes open to you. The bailiffs will want their pound of flesh, but they're only interested in either payment from you or goods to the value of. Their first interest will be the car.

 

Do you still own a car? If not, do you have valuable goods on the premises?

 

If the answer to both is "no", I would speak to the bailiff and explain this. They can return the warrant as "nulla bona" if you are unable to pay the debt, which in effect is a write-off of the debt. After all they can't get blood out of a stone.

 

However if you have a car or other assets (eg computer), then these will be at risk of being taken.

[stevekennedy]

I dont have the car anyomre and I don't really have anything of value.... some decent furniture but they're not exactly priceless antiques. I do have a flatscreen TV in my house but it doesnt belong to me. Would the bailiffs try and come in to look around or would they just take my word for it that I don't have anything worthwhile?

 

My girlfriend parks her car outside my house most days too..... i assume they can tell who it belongs to and not try to clamp this right? Or do they rely on me to prove it isnt mine?

 

What I'm worried about is the bill getting bigger and bigger if i dont pay...... how long would they leave it before writing it off as a lost cause?

 

thanks again

[vickytheviking]

Could you not contact your official receiver. I don't think you have to pay this debt....as the original ticket was before bankrupsy. I think they will confirm this. I think they are trying it on. It doens't matter if you didn't include the debt when you went bankrupt either.

Good luck

[Jamberson]

I'm sure they would want to come in, and this is where you might run into trouble, if they decide they want to lay claim to your property. They would need to see cast-iron proof that the TV is not your property, and not just a hand-written note from someone.

 

There's also a potential grey area over the girlfriend's car. If she lives there, I think they might be able to claim it, as if it were yours. If she doesn't, I would just not mention her at all to be on the safe side.

 

I think it unlikely that they will try and claim ordinary furniture as it has very little re-sale value, and certain things like beds they can't touch anyway. They're generally after DVDs, computer games, computers - stuff they can auction off at a profit.

 

There is a separate section on the forum for bailiffs and it might be worth posting there too, for some expert advice on bailiff powers and bankruptcy.

 

Remember, you don't have to let them in if you don't want to. Without a car to clamp, what can they do??

 

If Vicky is correct with regard to the debt, you might be able to get them off your case completely. Worth finding out.

[stevekennedy]

thanks for your advice. Sadly the bankruptcy does not cover council fines/court fines etc as they are not classed as debts, and are not written off.... this is why i tried to pay them off at the time of my bankruptcy. Quite why Leeds City Council Parking department have this massive power over their citizens is beyond me!

[patdavies]

There's also a potential grey area over the girlfriend's car. If she lives there, I think they might be able to claim it, as if it were yours. If she doesn't, I would just not mention her at all to be on the safe side.

 

No there absolutely isn't; it's black and white - they cannot levy against somebody else's property in order to get you to pay. Doesn't matter where the g/f lives, the car is not the debtor's property.

 

(note: otherwise the Official Receiver/Trustee would have had it by now to settle debts)

[Jamberson]

You're no doubt correct Pat, but I recall issues over shared property of married couples. I think they can claim a wife's car, so I'm not sure if a co-habiting couple are treated differently to a married couple?

[stevekennedy]

I dont't think they could touch my girlfriends car as it isnt even registered to my address and for all they know it could belong to my sick grandmother visiting for the day! They would surely run a check on the ownership fo the car?

 

My concerns are more about the powers of the bailiffs so have reposted in the bailiff forum. I originally queried in this forum as i thought there may be a way to legally oject ot the bailiffs enforcing the original ticket as as far as i was aware it hadf been paid and i have only just bercome aware of the outstanding amount. Is there anything like this i can use?

[Jamberson]

The only recourse you have would be to file an Out of Time Statutory Declaration. You will have to state why it is out of time, and the Council will consider whether they are willing to accept it.

 

They send out notices to the registered keeper, and you would be stating that you did not receive any of this. (You mention above that it reached £110 in March, and that you left some mail unopened, so I assume you were receiving mail about this?)

 

I don't think it's going to succeed, but it's your right to file one if you wish, so long as you don't enter false info on it. You can get the forms from Northampton County Court's website.

[vickytheviking]

Hi there, I went bankrupt back in December '07.

I included council tax debts which had already been to court, I'd not paid and I was due for another hearing where the council stated they were going apply to send me to prison.

Wouldn't that be on the same lines as car parking fines?

 

Anyway Stephen....the original ticket was probably unlawful anyway.

I'm not sure if i'm allowed to post links on here but from what i've heard something like 90% of parking fines are unlawful.

 

Check out parkingappeals.co.uk

 

Vic

[vickytheviking]

Just read something somewhere and it stated if parking fines were issues by council then they are a civil matter and can be included. If they were issued by poice then they are actually 'fines' and can not.

[vickytheviking]

Here's the info i found......hopefully this applies other places as well as Northampton

 

Traffic regulation orders made under the Road Traffic Regulations Act 1984 are used to impose parking and waiting restrictions on roads or for designating conditions for using parking places operated by regulations. Contravention of a traffic regulation order gives rise to enforcement action and financial penalty. Prior to the introduction of the Road Traffic Act 1991 all such contraventions were enforced by the police or police service traffic warden and the Magistrates' Courts. As such these penalties were "fines" within the meaning of the Magistrates' Courts Act 1980 and were not provable debts in bankruptcy which were released on discharge.

 

To relieve the burden on the court system the Road Traffic Act 1991 introduced a method of civil enforcement for contravention of traffic regulation orders, moving responsibility for enforcement action from the police and the Magistrates' Court to local authorities. The devolved parking enforcement is achieved by making permitted parking area and special parking area orders. Currently powers are devolved throughout London, in 70 authorities in England and a small number of authorities in Wales.

 

Therefore the manner in which a penalty for a parking contravention will be dealt with in a bankruptcy estate will be dependent on the source of the enforcement action.

 

Where a fixed penalty notice was issued by a police authority and is enforceable by the Magistrates Court the penalty falls within the definition of a "fine" and under the provisions of rule 12.3(2)(a) of the Rules and section 281(4) of the Act it is not a provable debt and the bankrupt is not released from liability on discharge.

 

Where the penalty was issued on behalf of a local authority - including penalties issued in relation to the London congestion charge - these debts are provable debts in bankruptcy proceedings from which the bankrupt will be released on discharge. All penalties imposed under devolved enforcement powers are administered through he Traffic Enforcement Centre at Northampton County Court.

[lamma]

Good information ! Thanks. Is there a link to the source ?

[Guest janensteve]

woo hoo , so local authorities are treated the same as nomal debtors.. way hay !!!!! about bloody time !!!!

[hallowitch]

a bailiff collecting a parking ticket must be certificated

 

www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/CertificatedBailiffs/

 

this is a new thing the government has started and is not 100%

put Marston Group in the search and see if his name comes up

if it doesn't do a search of his name if his name comes up and there is no company name he may be self employed if his name appears against another bailiffs company then he should not be collecting (adding charges ) for marston

 

if his name does not appear anywhere on the list phone

Ministry of Justice Public Register of Bailiffs on 020 3334 6355

and ask for confirmation that he is/isn't a bailiff

 

And if he is not a bailiff send him a text asking him what court he was certificated at and on what date

[vickytheviking]

yup...here goes..... Car parking fines - MoneySavingExpert.com Forums

 

I remember a bailiff came knocking and i told him i'd rather spend my money on bankruptsy than give them a penny.He and their call centre told me council tax couldn't be included.......how wrong were they.....

 

hope this info puts a smile on a few faces. Hope its true as well!!

[stevekennedy]

is that for real? I just assumed that it was outside of my bankruptcy, but It certanly reads as though this parking fine (issued on behalf of Leeds City Council and therefore enforced by Northanpton County Court) is not enforceable and can be added to my BR estate. Thanks for this info, I will get onto the Official Receiver first thing on Monday.

 

I'll check out the Bailiff too. I've dealt with a few and this guy is probably the most unpleasant and aggressive of the lot. I'd take great pleasure in informing him that he isnt legal....... fingers crossed

[patdavies]

woo hoo , so local authorities are treated the same as nomal debtors.. way hay !!!!! about bloody time !!!!

 

For parking, not for Council Tax, which has a different statutory basis

[vickytheviking]

Decriminalised parking enforcement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

There is a site i came across yesterday where it will tell you exactly which councils operate civil parking.....

 

When i find it i will post...

 

A PCN isn't technicially a fine..... read up and educate them!!

 

In fact, speak to the official receiver too as i advised before and tel them these people are harrassing you!

[vickytheviking]

hey just post us his telephone number and we'll all ring him and tell him...see how he enjoys harrassment!

[stevekennedy]

ok, I remember this from last time...... The Bailiff in question hasnt given his first name. I asked about this before and was told it was so that I couldnt search his address and seek vengeance (as if i would!) . I therefore only have 'Mr Parker' and Marston Group to go on. He is not listed under marston Group but there is a Derek Parker listed on the site, employer is Rundle. What does this mean? I guess i'll need to call the number above but i cant see how a big company like Marston Group would make such a schoolboy error like contracting to this guy...... if he is employed by someone else and like you say above 'shouldn't be collecting for Marstons' What should i do about it?

[tomtubby]

Tricky one this, hopefully someone can advise me please!

 

I received a parking ticket in November 2008, and due to various money problems at the time i didn't pay it, It built up to £110 due in March which again wasn't paid.

 

I made myself bankrupt on 28th April 2009, and after taking advice I used the little money i had to clear my outstanding parking tickets and a court fine i received for a speeding offence before going bankrupt as these would be outside the bankruptcy and would still be owed regardless. These were paid on 24th April.

 

I thought this was the end of it but unknown to me, the parking fine was passed onto Marstons Bailiffs on 21st April. As the Council payment line was via an automated service, the debit card payment i made was rejected and paid back onto my card....... this account was frozen on 28th April and I had no knowledge of this payment being returned.

 

I spoke to someone at the Council who said that they were not obliged to tell me the payment was cancelled and that I had had plently of notice to pay so its not their problem. this is true but at the time I was in such a financial mess that letters and bills just didnt get opened. the Bailiff from Marstons was just as helpful, and told me that regardless of the circumstances it needed to be paid or they would remove my possessions.

 

I thought that at the time of my banruptcy everything was in order, so when i received a warning from Marstons, i didnt read it properly and assumed it was for an old debt. I therefore havent done anything towards paying it and did not realise until now i was legally obliged to pay it. The debt to Marstons is now £317. I do not have this money, and have no means of paying in now or in the near future..... I'm out of work and am barely surviving on the little benefits i get.

 

What options do i have now?

 

Does my Bankruptcy affect this at all? after all, they did not come and take any of my possessions at the time of bankruptcy as they considered that there was nothing of significant value.

 

Would the circumstances above qualify me to make some kind of application to the court for more time to pay the debt or even better for it to be reduced to an affordable amount?

 

What should i do about the Bailiffs in the meantime? He's promised another 'visit' tomorrow

 

Thanks in advance

 

 

It is most confusing but a Magistrate Court FINE ( ie; driving whilst uninsured, no having a TV licence etc) CANNOT be included in a Bankruptcy.

 

However council tax CAN BE !!!

 

Parking Charge Notices (PCN) are CIVIL DEBTS and can indeed be included in your bankruptcy.

 

In any event the PCN was incurred long before your bankruptcy and should indeed be included. The Warrant of Execution which was probably issued after the bankruptcy is merely the AUTHORITY to have the debt collected by a Bailiff !!

 

All Bankruptcy Trustees should be able to include the PCN in the debt even though the B/R was a few months ago.

 

Don@t worry...this should be OK !!

[stevekennedy]

Brilliant, thats great news. Thanks Tomtubby. I'll get my Official Receiver to speak to the Bailiffs and hopefully i can avoid having to deal with the gorilla that knocked on my door this week. My mind is a lot more at ease now

[tomtubby]

Brilliant, thats great news. Thanks Tomtubby. I'll get my Official Receiver to speak to the Bailiffs and hopefully i can avoid having to deal with the gorilla that knocked on my door this week. My mind is a lot more at ease now

 

 

You will need to provide your trustee with details of the creditor and the reference number etc so that he can include this debt in your bankruptcy.

 

Please do post back here once you have made contact.