Cash Genie - Harassment at Work - Withdrawing Permissinon?

[spurious]

Here's a good way to deal with Payday Loan sharks. If you know within 14 days of the agreement that you are not going to be able to pay the loan back, cancel the entire agreement under the Financial Services (Distance Marketing) Regulations 2004. Look at the regulations here, specifically section 9 which deals with cancellation rights.

 

Despite any 'agreement' you sign, you are entitled under these regulations to send cancellation notification to a fax number or email address (4)(d) & (e). The loan shark is then obliged to refund any interest already paid or money taken over and above the bottom figure actually loaned (minus any 'fee' they come up with for a service they must actually have provided (i.e. not interest)) and the consumer is obliged to repay the original loan, but is not obliged to pay anything more than that.

 

Obviously Payday Loan sharks don't exactly shout from the mountaintops about this, as it would mean you could essentially get a loan and pay it back in real terms if you're quick enough to cancel.

 

I'm in a delightful battle with Wonga at the moment - I forgot to send my cancellation until the 14th day, meaning that even though I sent it special delivery, it didn't arrive until the 15th day. Wonga very smugly told me that since they didn't get it until day 15, I wasn't protected by the regulations. Unfortunately for them, Section 9 (4)© makes it clear that notice is taken to have been given on the day it was posted. I dished up my serving of humble pie with a good side order of smug too, hehehe.

 

Anyway, I'm sure all this is known by most of you, but it's a delightful statutory right to flex if you can.

[robjam1969]

Hi lady

Did you get them to accept reasonable figure? From what I have seen they will only accept substantial payments on any plan.

[spurious]

Cash Genie are attempting to contact me, claiming that I have no right to cancel their agreement under the Financial Services (Distance Marketing) Regulations 2005, as they are "not regulated by the FSA".

 

They called me repeatedly at work, trying variations of my number until they got through to somebody who put them through to me. When I said they shouldn't call me on my work number, they told me that they could because I'd given them "full authorisation".

 

Questions:

 

1. I'm certain they are incorrect about cancellation - I'm perfectly entitled to cancel under the FSR (2004), which covers internet/phone agreements, whether or not they are regulated by the FSA. Right?

 

2. How can I withdraw this "full permission" they claim I have given them to contact me at work?

 

The chap who called was very agressive and tried his best to be intimidating. I rolled over to appease him but have no intention of playing ball because I'm sure he's wrong.

 

Help!

[spurious]

I have since discovered that the Regulations I quoted are enforceable only by companies that are regulated by the FSA. Cash Genie are not. However, their agreements are bound by the CCA. They say they will not allow me to cancel the agreement until all money is repaid. Can they do this legally? My understanding was that I had 14 days within which I could cancel the agreement, and subsequent to the cancellation, the original loan amount would be payable. I was also unaware that any company could "refuse" cancellation - isn't it a basic right?

 

Can they demand payment before agreeing to cancel a CCA agreement?

 

Can I quote OFT Debt Collection Guidelines and the Administration of Justice Act to force them not to contact me in any way other than writing?

 

EDIT: Part of their terms say:

 

"If you default in repaying any loan with us and as it is our lending criteria that any monies lent to you are lent on the basis that you are employed, you authorise us to contact your employer or any other relevant parties in order to secure repayment of any outstanding balance, or contact your employer or any other relevant parties to confirm any information you have supplied in your application if we believe that the information is false, misleading or inaccurate.

You consent to In Time Finance or any associated organisation disclosing any details of this agreement or use discreet actions to assist in the recovery of any outstanding balance"

 

Can they really call my employer and discuss it with them?

 

What about data protection? What about OFT Debt Collection Guidelines?

Edited June 25, 2009 by spurious

[robjam1969]

bump

[spurious]

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Edited June 29, 2009 by spurious

[robjam1969]

A cracking letter! The important thing is to follow through with your complaints to OFT etc

[vtrn]

Except the company is called IN TIME Finance Limited, not TIME Finance Limited. Just make sure you write that on the cheque.

[spurious]

Thanks - corrected. I'm not quite sure why my original letter is now obscured, but effectively I ripped them a new a-hole and will post their response.

[spurious]

A company called V Gates, who claim I owe them £100, sent me this:

 

We have served you with a default notice with respect to loan number WDC***** in the amount of £200.00, £120.00 outstanding.

We have arranged for a ‘doorstep’ collection on Wednesday 09 September 09. Attendance will be at your workplace.

The purpose of the doorstep collection is a requirement prior to issuing proceedings to recover the funds which are due.

It is your last opportunity to make a settlement or a settlement proposal for our consideration.

A fee of £75 will be added to your account to offset our costs incurred.

 

 

They have not served me with any 'default notice' and to my knowledge have not sent me a single letter in respect to this. Obviously I'm panicked about a 'doorstep collection' at my work. I don't know if they're using the threat to try and intimidate me, but I'm after some urgent advise.

 

 

 

I have sent them the following back, by email and special delivery today:

 

 

 

To Whom It Concerns,

 

I am in receipt of an email in which you state that you will be visiting my workplace. Please refer to the OFT debt collection guidelines, which for your convenience I have copied below, highlighting the section you would be in violation of should you follow through on your intention:

 

"Debt collection visits:

 

2.11 Those visiting debtors must not act in an unclear or threatening manner.

 

2.12 Examples of unfair practices are:

a. not making the purpose of any proposed visit clear, for example, merely stating that collectors or field agents will call is not sufficient

b. visiting a debtor when it is known they are vulnerable, for example, when a doctor's certificate has been provided stating that the debtor is ill

c. continuing with a visit when it becomes apparent that the debtor is distressed or otherwise vulnerable, for example, it becomes apparent that the debtor has mental health problems

d. entering a property uninvited

e. not leaving a property when asked to

f. visiting or threatening to visit debtors without prior agreement when the debt is deadlocked or disputed

g. not giving adequate notice of the time and date of a visit

h. visiting debtors, unless requested, at inappropriate locations such as work or hospital."

 

I have never requested you to visit my workplace and any implied invitation is hereby withdrawn.

 

For your information, I have forwarded a copy of your email to the Office of Fair Trading as part of as complaint against your conduct which is in clear violation of their terms, which you are obliged to adhere to.

 

Please be advised that I am only prepared to communicate with you in writing. As of today's date, I have yet to receive a single piece of written communication from you.

 

Regarding any intention you may have to visit me at my home, OFT rules and regulations clearly state that you can only visit me at my home if you make an appointment and I have no wish to make an appointment with you. There is only an implied license under English Common Law for people to be able to visit me on my property without express permission; the postman and people asking for directions etc (Armstrong v. Sheppard and Short Ltd [1959] 2 Q.B. per Lord Evershed M.R.).

 

Therefore take note that I revoke license under Common Law for you, or your representatives, to visit me at my property and if you persist in sending "doorstep callers" to my home, you will be reported for harassment and be liable for damages for a tort of trespass. You would also be liable for conspiring in a tort of trespass by acting in defiance of my instructions and sending someone to visit me nevertheless.

 

Should it be necessary, I will obtain an injunction.

 

In regards to the matter itself, I do not acknowledge any debt to you.

 

With reference to the above agreement, I would be grateful if you would send me a copy of this credit agreement and a full breakdown of the account including any interest or charges applied.

 

I understand that under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 [sections 77-79], I am entitled to receive a copy of any credit agreement and a statement of account on request.

 

I enclose a payment of £1 in the hard copy of this email which will reach you by speciasl delivery on Tuesday 6th September. This represents the fee payable under the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

I understand a copy of any credit agreement along with a statement of account should be supplied within 12 working days.

 

I understand that under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 creditors are unable to enforce an agreement if they fail to comply with the request for a copy of the agreement and statement of account under these sections of the Act.

 

I look forward to hearing from you.

 

Yours faithfully

 

 

Do you think there's anything else I should do?

[itsamomentintime]

do they know where you work?

[42man]

Do you have an address for this company ? I will check them out.....

[42man]

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/payday-loans/206306-gates-ltd-aka-4cashnow.html

[DonkeyB]

Have you got any idea what the supposed debt is for? Depending on this, a CCA request may be inappropriate. The 'prove it' letter may be of more use.

 

Also, they can't add any charges unless it's allowed for in the original contract, if there is one.

 

And a visit most certainly is not a requirement before any kind of action - report them to your local TS and the OFT, even if they don't have a licence.

Edited September 7, 2009 by DonkeyB
typo

[cerberusalert]

4cashnow - V Gates Ltd ???

 

Address:

 

4CashNow

V.Gates Ltd

PO Box 35540

London

NW4 2YT

 

Registered Address:

 

V.Gates Ltd

923 Finchley Road

London

NW11 7PE

[42man]

They cannot add £75 either.....this is also against the OFT's guidelines....

 

d. applying unreasonable charges, for example, charges not based on actual

and necessary costs

[spurious]

Those are the ones, yes. They do know where I work because I had to tell them as part of the' agreement', but there's no provision for them to visit the workplace, nor can I see how they'd be allowed to given the OFT guidelines.

 

A CCA is an appropriate request - I just thought it would be the quickest way to stop them doing whatever they think they can regardless of their obligations.

 

I can't think of anything else I could do at this point (??)

[cerberusalert]

APR 1284% based on 31 days LINK

[42man]

I'd still report them to the OFT......i'm looking into a few of these loan companies who do not issue any kind of agreements whatsoever and may be trying to avoid their obligations under the Consumer Credit Act......

[42man]

Have you considered sending them a SAR ? i'd love to see a default notice from a company like this......

[meols cop]

Can a firm like this ring you at work. I didnt think they could as it maybe against OFT guidelines.

[spurious]

If/when they come back with the CCA agreement, I'll certainly slap them with an SAR, yes.

 

Can a firm like this ring you at work. I didnt think they could as it maybe against OFT guidelines.

 

They have done, yes. I shot them back an email telling them if they tried that again I'll be in touch with the OFT faster than they know what's happening. That said, I've had the last few days off work so god only knows if they've been leaving messages for me. I'll find out tomorrow.

 

So you think my letter should be sufficient in the short term?

[spurious]

I've noticed that the terms on several of these loan sharks, sorry, payday loan companies, state that the recipient of the loan gives the provider the 'right' to contact employers, and presumably they will extend this condition to any loan that is not paid as they would like.

 

My question - how legal is this 'right'? They obviously have to abide by the Data Protection Act - or do their conditions supersede this?

[comebackjimmy]

Spurious has a valid question.

 

Notwithstanding the fact that one of the T&C's is a right to contact the debtor's employer, is it a lawful condition?

 

I would not mind betting the loan companys have a term in the contract saying that if any of the other terms are unlawful that does not invalidate the rest. So even they accept that it is possible that terms in their contract are not lawful!

[spurious]

It is an odd discussion to agree to the terms which are clearly stated and then complain once we follow through with them.

 

It's not in the least bit 'odd' raising this for discussion. When it comes to contacting employers, the conditions of a loan are often vague and ambiguous. I'd imagine this is deliberately so, to allow Payday Loan lenders freedom to interpret their conditions in a way that suits them.

 

Yet contacting third parties sails very close to the wind, legally. Data Protection, Harassment, OFT Debt Collection Guidelines and further issues all come into play when a lender takes it upon themselves to start phoning employers etc.

 

The question remains: just because it's a term, does that make it enforceable to the extent that the law (DPA, AOJ etc.) cannot apply?