Unauthorised Consolidation of a loan and overdraft

[I've got no money]

I have it if the bank puts a overdraft, credit card and loan into one account, they have essentially created a new agreement

 

if you don't sign the paperwork, makes the agreement unenforceable

 

 

we have created some thread here

 

Don't forget that unless s127 (3) applies unenforceability is not an absolute concept

[F_DCAs]

No, no paperwork was signed at all, and no word was given that the bank had permission to consolidate.

 

No word was given at the time that both accounts were shut down, and the amount was consolidated after the fact.

 

The original agreement, as far as I saw, doesn't even mention consolidation as a possibility on the bank's part.

[creditcardmug]

No, no paperwork was signed at all, and no word was given that the bank had permission to consolidate.

 

No word was given at the time that both accounts were shut down, and the amount was consolidated after the fact.

 

The original agreement, as far as I saw, doesn't even mention consolidation as a possibility on the bank's part.

 

Well then, you have them by the ba$$s as far as i can see:D

[I've got no money]

No, no paperwork was signed at all, and no word was given that the bank had permission to consolidate.

 

No word was given at the time that both accounts were shut down, and the amount was consolidated after the fact.

 

The original agreement, as far as I saw, doesn't even mention consolidation as a possibility on the bank's part.

 

Well the short answer is that they can't - there is clearly not only no written agreement but there is no agreement at all

[Helios]

name & shame

 

As i said before if the bank lobs the overdraft and loan into one, they have created a new agreement

 

as what has been suggested before

 

the agreement could be found to be unenforceable under s123 (3) of the cca

[F_DCAs]

The bank is...surprise surprise...LTSB.

[creditcardmug]

name & shame

 

As i said before if the bank lobs the overdraft and loan into one, they have created a new agreement

 

as what has been suggested before

 

the agreement could be found to be unenforceable under s123 (3) of the cca

 

Yes its s127 (3) in fact

 

(3) The court shall not make an enforcement order under section 65(1) if section 61(1)(a)(signing of agreements) was not complied with unless a document (whether or not in the prescribed form and complying with regulations under section 60(1)) itself containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor or hirer (whether or not in the prescribed manner).

[babybear39]

Loan and credit card agreement cannot be consolidated to the new amount without your permision.

[F_DCAs]

Thank you all - that's answered what I needed to know.

 

Should this be made a sticky - I understand this is a manoeuvre LTSB routinely practice.

[Helios]

HSBC try the same tactics either with a managed loan or they lob 2 balances together without your permission

[babybear39]

LTSB added an overdraft to a loan and passed it to 1st crud, this was confusing because I thought I didn't owe the amount they were chasing

[izzitme101]

What if the bank puts the overdraft with the loan and the loan now has the overdraft account number

 

have they voided the enforceable agreement with loan by doing that?

 

 

Put the whole account in dispute, demand a full statement of the account for the overdraft, and demand to know where monies above the overdraft amount came from, and make them prove it with a cca.

No cca would render the loan amount unenforceable i believe

[F_DCAs]

What would be the opinion of the site team on this?

[F_DCAs]

To clarify, if the overdraft part of this new account is made up mostly of charges, then a claim for the charges can still be made? But, if a claim is made, will it have the adverse effect of 're-instating' the old overdraft account or will it make the new account 'authorised'?

[F_DCAs]

bump

[F_DCAs]

bump again

[F_DCAs]

Another bump.

 

Would any kind of refund claim (charges on current account, PPI on loan account) re-start up either account?

 

Also, I'm probably answering my own question, but can this 'unauthorised new account' be rendered valid IF a claim is made on one or both of the two 'terminated' accounts? I would say no, but just hoping to clarify.

[spamheed]

An agreement is a single entity - a contract between two or more persons, the terms and conditions are laid out at the point of inception - ie when the agreement is entered into - assuming there are no irregularities, this agreement is enforceable in it's created form.

 

Two agreements can only be combined with the express written permission of all parties, unless it is stipulated within the terms and conditions of the original agreement.

 

If any party acts outside of the original terms and conditions, or wishes to change the terms or conditions of an agreement

 

ie the debtor does not make payment, the enforcement action would need to be contained within the original agreement

 

or if the creditor periodically changes specifics of the agreement, then this would be subject to a modification of the original Terms and conditions (we've all received those little one sheet letters or booklets notifying us of changes to our agreement terms, or interest rate changes etc)

Normally, if the debtor does not act on these changes within a set period, then such amendments are deemed to have been accepted and become part of the agreement.

 

If the creditor applies any action to an account covered by such an agreement ie combining balances and this is not set out as an action agreed within the intial terms and conditions, or has been accepted via written consent as laid out above, then the original agreement has been made void and is unenforceable and no agreement would exist.

 

combining an account with another renders both of the initial agreements unenforceable by a breach of the original agreement and the new combined balance would be equally unenforceable due to the absence of any agreement

[F_DCAs]

Well, here's a development. CCA received - but for his respective loan and current accounts. It's for a Credit Card. It's certainly an account that's never been used, and one that he has doubt he ever agreed to at all.

 

It has his signature on it, but he can't remember signing for it at all, and all other personal detail sections has been completed by someone else, and he suspects at least two other people.

 

There's even a credit card statement enclosed, which shows nil balances all the way.

 

This might get deeper yet. The copy of the agreement in question will be scanned up in due course to determine enforceability, but a quick glance doubts that it is.

 

The agreement is dated the same day as the loan, and what is very telling as that the only agreement papers he was given at the time were that of the loan.

[cymruambyth]

Hi subbing with interest

Had a leter from LTSB stating 'your personal loan account was closed for debt recovery purposes on xxxx2004 with an outstanding balance of £XXXXX. At the same time, your bank account xxxxxxx was also closed with an outstanding balance of £XXX. Following closure, these accounts were consolidated together under reference xxxxxxx and transfered to our Consumer Debt Recovery dept witha total amount owed of £XXXXX

We have instructed [problem] to proceed with legal actionfor the recovery of this debt through the courts.'

[F_DCAs]

This just gets better and better.

 

In respect to this previously unseen CC agreement that LTSB did send, LTSB stated in writing a few months before now that the two accounts were consolidated into one - and the account number they've cited in that letter is different again.

 

So, it seems LTSB have worked themselves into a tizz :-

 

1) We have an unlawfully terminated loan and overdraft (invalid default notices issued for both prior to termination). Two terminations performed whilst a request for refund of unlawful charges was being pursued.

 

2) The two terminated accounts consolidated into a new account for which no agreement exists at all.

 

3) Now, a CC agreement turns up that the customer has no prior knowledge of ever signing.

 

4) So, there are four different account numbers, when the customer had ever been in possession of and has only ever used, two of them.

 

The guy concerned posted his frustrations in an audio clip on YT, which is worth a listen for anyone who's had problems with LTSB. What's said then is even more confused now.

[spamheed]

We may or may not have enforceable agreements, so to remove any doubt whatsoever, we're going to close your old accounts and create a brand new acccount without your authority or agreement, so we now knopw we cant enforece the agreements coz we've cancelled them and then when you still wont pay us we're going to cry foul when we can't enforce the non-existent agreement

 

I love the British Banking System it's soooo funny, just like in the Monty Python sketches

[paulwlton]

Worth a read.

 

MP fears bank's phantom paperwork may be just the tip of an iceberg | Money | The Guardian

[harrassed senior]

I have a similar situation with NW - 2 loans and an overdraft have been combined. B.Carter first, cca'd no reply now with Wesclots - awaiting a reply to my 'why has this been passed on whilst in dispute'.

[F_DCAs]

I think probably the funniest thing with the paperwork he got the other day is that it came with a really stroppy letter saying essentially 'we will not correspond any further regarding this matter and believe the account is fully enforceable'. Oh really? Shame the CCA account was sent in enquiry to a non existent account, and the 'agreement' that came has an entirely different account number on that is ALSO non-existent. LTSB really crack me up