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    • Hi there, Here is the sticky filled out as best as possible:  Which Court have you received the claim from? MCOL (County Court Business Centre, Northampton) Name of the Claimant: Uk Parking Control Limited Claimants Solicitors: DCB Legal Date of issue: March 2023 Following events: — DQ sent to me July 2023 — I filed a DQ in September 2023 — My claim was transferred to [my local court] September 2023 — Received Notice of Allocation to Small Claims Track (Hearing) including date for hearing in April 2024 — Witness statement due by May 14 — Claimant must pay court fees by May 17 — Court hearing on June 18   What is the claim for – the reason they have issued the claim? Please type out their particulars of claim (verbatim) less any identifiable data and round the amounts up/down. 1. The defendant is indebted to the claimant for a Parking Charge issued at [x] issued to vehicle [__] at Walcot Yard, Walcot Road, Bath, Ba1 5bg. 2. The PCN details are [___]. 3. The PCN(s) was issued on private land owned or managed by C. The vehicle was parked in breach of the Terms on Cs signs (the Contract), this incurring the PCNs. 4. The driver agreed to pay within 28 days but did not. D is liable as the driver or keeper. Despite requests, the PCN is outstanding. The Contract entitles C to damages.  AND THE CLAIMANT CLAIMS 1. £160 being the total of the PCN(s) and damages. 2. Interest at a rate of 8% per annum pursuant to s.69 of the County Courts Act 1984 from the date hereof at a daily rate of [x]p until judgement or sooner payment. 3. Costs and court fees   What is the value of the claim? ~260 Amount Claimed ~170 court fees ~35 legal rep fees ~50 Total Amount  ~260   Have you moved since the issuance of the PCN? No   Did you receive a letter of Claim With A reply Pack wanting I&E etc about 1mth before the claimform? No Here is the defence I filed:  DEFENCE 1. The parking charges referred to in this claim did not arise from any agreement of terms. The charge and the claim was an unexpected shock. The Defendant denies that the Claimant is entitled to relief in the sum claimed, or at all. It is denied that any conduct by the driver was a breach of any prominent term and it is denied that this Claimant (understood to have a bare licence as managers) has standing to sue or form contracts in their own name. Liability is denied, whether or not the Claimant is claiming 'keeper liability', which is unclear from the Particulars. The facts as known to the Defendant: 2. It is admitted that on the material date the Defendant was the registered keeper of the vehicle in question, but liability is denied. 3. While working at a nearby premises, [___] the Defendant was informed by the manager that they had an informal verbal agreement with the developer and owner operator of [___], which supposedly allowed them to park there. Based on this information, the Defendant parked their car there in good faith. The Defendant was not aware of any restrictions or limitations to this agreement, and therefore believed that they had the right to park there without penalty. 4. The Defendant avers that the Claimant failed to serve a Notice to Keeper compliant with the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012. Consequently, the claimant cannot transfer liability for this charge to the Defendant as keeper of the vehicle. 5. The Particulars of Claim ('POC') appear to be in breach of CPR 16.4, 16PD3 and 16PD7, and fail to "state all facts necessary for the purpose of formulating a complete cause of action”. 6. The Defendant is unable, on the basis of the POC, to understand with certainty what case is being pursued. 7. The POC are entirely inadequate, in that they fail to particularise (a) the contractual term(s) relied upon; (b) the specifics of any alleged breach of contract; and (c) how the purported and unspecified 'damages' arose and the breakdown of the exaggerated quantum. 8. The claim has been issued via Money Claims Online and, as a result, is subject to a character limit for the Particulars of Claim section of the Claim Form. The fact that generic wording appears to have been applied has obstructed any semblance of clarity. The Defendant trusts that the court will agree that a claim pleaded in such generic terms lacks the required details and requires proper particularisation in a detailed document within 14 days, per 16PD.3 9. The guidance for completing Money Claims Online confirms this and clearly states: "If you do not have enough space to explain your claim online and you need to serve extra, more detailed particulars on the defendant, tick the box that appears after the statement 'you may also send detailed particulars direct to the defendant.'" 10. No further particulars have been filed and to the Defendant's knowledge, no application asking the court service for more time to serve and/or relief from sanctions has been filed either. 11. In view of it having been entirely within the Claimant's Solicitors' gift to properly plead the claim at the outset and the claim being for a sum, well within the small claims limit, such that the Defendant considers it disproportionate and at odds with the overriding objective (in the context of a failure by the Claimant to properly comply with rules and practice directions) for a Judge to throw the erring Claimant a lifeline by ordering further particulars (to which a further defence might be filed, followed by further referral to a Judge for directions and allocation) the court is respectfully invited to strike this claim out. 13. Whilst the new Code and Act is not retrospective, it was enacted due to the failure of the self-serving BPA & IPC Codes of Practice. The Minister is indisputably talking about existing (not future) cases when declaring that 'recovery' fees were 'designed to extort money'. A clear steer for the Courts which it is hoped overrides mistakes made in a few appeal cases that the parking industry desperately rely upon (Britannia v Semark-Jullien, One Parking Solution v Wilshaw, Vehicle Control Services v Ward and Vehicle Control Services v Percy). 14. Far from being persuasive, regrettably these one-sided appeals saw Circuit Judges led in one direction by Counsel for parking firms, and the litigant-in-person consumers lacked the wherewithal to appeal. In case this Claimant tries to rely upon these, the Defendant avers that errors were made in every case. Evidence was either overlooked (including signage discrepancies in Wilshaw, where the Judge was also oblivious to the BPA Code of Practice and the DVLA KADOE requirement for landowner authority) or the Judge inexplicably sought out and quoted from the wrong Code altogether (Percy). In Ward, a few seconds' emergency stop out of the control of the driver was unfairly aligned with the admitted parking contract in Beavis. Those learned Judges were not in possession of the same level of information as the DLUHC, whose incoming statutory Code of Practice now clarifies such matters as a definition of 'parking' as well as consideration and grace periods and minor matters such as 'keying errors' or 'fluttering tickets/permits' where a PCN should not have been issued at all, or should have been cancelled in the pre-action dispute phase. POFA and CRA breaches 15. Pursuant to Schedule 4 paragraph 4(5) of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 ('the POFA') the sum claimed exceeds the maximum potentially recoverable from a registered keeper, even in cases where a firm may have complied with other POFA requirements (adequate signage, Notice to Keeper wording/dates, and a properly communicated 'relevant contract/relevant obligation'). If seeking keeper/hirer liability - unclear from the POC - the Claimant is put to strict proof of full compliance and liability transferred. 16. Claiming costs on an indemnity basis is unfair, per the Unfair Contract Terms Guidance (CMA37, para 5.14.3), the Government guidance on the Consumer Rights Act 2015 ('CRA'). The CRA introduced new requirements for 'prominence' of both contract terms and 'consumer notices'. In a parking context, this includes signage and all notices, letters and other communications intended to be read by the consumer. 17. Section 71 creates a duty upon courts to consider the test of fairness, including (but not limited to) whether all terms/notices were unambiguously and conspicuously brought to the attention of a consumer. Signage must be prominent, plentiful, well placed and lit, and all terms unambiguous and obligations clear. The Defendant avers that the CRA has been breached due to unfair/unclear terms and notices, pursuant to s62 and paying due regard to examples 6, 10, 14 & 18 of Schedule 2 and the requirements for fair/open dealing and good faith. ParkingEye v Beavis is distinguished (lack of legitimate interest/prominence of terms) 18. ParkingEye overcame the possibility of their £85 charge being dismissed as punitive, however the Supreme Court clarified that ‘the penalty rule is plainly engaged’ in parking cases, which must each be determined on their own facts. That 'unique' case met a commercial justification test, and took into account the prominent yellow/black uncluttered signs with £85 in the largest/boldest text. Rather than causing other parking charges to be automatically justified, the Beavis case facts set a high bar that this Claimant has failed to reach. 19. Paraphrasing from the Supreme Court, deterrence is likely to be penal if there is a lack of a 'legitimate interest' in performance extending beyond the prospect of compensation flowing directly from the alleged breach. The intention cannot be to punish a driver, nor to present them with hidden terms, unexpected/cumbersome obligations nor 'concealed pitfalls or traps'. 20. In the present case, the Claimant has fallen foul of those tests. The Claimant’s small signs have vague/hidden terms and a mix of small font, and are considered incapable of binding a driver. Consequently, it remains the Defendant’s position that no contract to pay an onerous 'penalty' was seen or agreed. Binding Court of Appeal authorities which are on all fours with a case involving unclear terms and a lack of ‘adequate notice’ of a parking charge, include: (i) Spurling v Bradshaw [1956] 1 WLR 461 (‘red hand rule’) and (ii) Thornton v Shoe Lane Parking Ltd [1970] EWCA Civ2, both leading authorities confirming that a clause cannot be incorporated after a contract has been concluded; and (iii) Vine v London Borough of Waltham Forest: CA 5 Apr 2000, where Ms Vine won because it was held that she had not seen the terms by which she would later be bound, due to "the absence of any notice on the wall opposite the parking space'' (NB: when parking operator Claimants cite Vine, they often mislead courts by quoting out of context, Roch LJ's words about the Respondent’s losing case, and not from the ratio). 21. Fairness and clarity of terms and notices are paramount in the statutory Code and this is supported by the BPA & IPC Trade Bodies. In November 2020's Parking Review, solicitor Will Hurley, CEO of the IPC, observed: "Any regulation or instruction either has clarity or it doesn’t. If it’s clear to one person but not another, there is no clarity. The same is true for fairness. Something that is fair, by definition, has to be all-inclusive of all parties involved – it’s either fair or it isn’t. The introduction of a new ‘Code of Practice for Parking’ provides a wonderful opportunity to provide clarity and fairness for motorists and landowners alike." Lack of standing or landowner authority, and lack of ADR 22. DVLA data is only supplied to pursue parking charges if there is an agreement flowing from the landholder (ref: KADOE rules). It is not accepted that this Claimant (an agent of a principal) has authority from the landowner to issue charges in this place in their own name. The Claimant is put to strict proof that they have standing to make contracts with drivers and litigate in their own name. 23. The Claimant failed to offer a genuinely independent Alternative Dispute Resolution (ADR). The Appeals Annex in the new incoming statutory Code shows that genuine disputes such as this would see the charge cancelled, had a fair ADR existed. Whether or not a person engaged with it, the Claimant's consumer blame culture and reliance upon the industry's own 'appeals service' should not sway the court into a belief that a fair appeal was ever on offer. The rival Trade Bodies' time-limited and opaque 'appeals' services fail to properly consider facts or rules of law and reject almost any dispute: e.g. the IAS upheld appeals in a woeful 4% of decided cases (IPC's 2020 Annual Report). Conclusion 24. The claim is entirely without merit. The Defendant believes that it is in the public interest that claims like this should be struck out because knowingly enhanced parking claims like this one cause consumer harm on a grand scale. 25. There is ample evidence to support the view - long held by many District Judges - that these are knowingly exaggerated claims. For HMCTS to only disallow those costs in the tiny percentage of cases that reach hearings whilst other claims to continue to flood the courts unabated, is to fail hundreds of thousands of consumers who suffer CCJs or pay inflated amounts, in fear of intimidating pre-action threats. 26. In the matter of costs, the Defendant asks: (a) at the very least, for standard witness costs for attendance at Court, pursuant to CPR 27.14, and (b) for a finding of unreasonable conduct by this Claimant, seeking costs pursuant to CPR 46.5. 27. Attention is drawn specifically to the (often-seen from this industry) distinct possibility of an unreasonably late Notice of Discontinuance. Whilst CPR r.38.6 states that the Claimant is liable for the Defendant's costs after discontinuance (r.38.6(1)) this does not normally apply to claims allocated to the small claims track (r.38.6(3)). However, the White Book states (annotation 38.6.1): "Note that the normal rule as to costs does not apply if a claimant in a case allocated to the small claims track serves a notice of discontinuance although it might be contended that costs should be awarded if a party has behaved unreasonably (r.27.14(2)(dg))." Statement of Truth I believe that the facts stated in this defence are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.
    • Hi, I was caught by the security guards today for shoplifting in John Lewis. I think total amount is about £500. They said they saw me on CCTV last week, I was freaked out so I admitted it. I know it’s awful… I cried as I was too scared and begged them pls don’t call the police. They took pics of me and wrote down my details from banking app as I didn’t have any id with me. I told them my difficulties that I was scammed £35k recently and I lost my job so I stole those things and sell them. I apologised and they said they won’t call the police but I’m banned and will receive letters from RLP for fines which including this time and the last time(I didn’t give back the goods I took last time). I know it’s very very bad, I feel shameful and so depressed so hopeless about everything happened. I wonder since it’s a lot of money, will they sue me, take me to the court, or will they change their mind to call the police when they check the cctv footage to check how much I owe them? I said sorry I really couldn’t afford the fine at this situation, they said it’s their job they can’t do anything. Later when I was out of the mall, the security guard said, I can call RLP to negotiate about the fee. Also I’m probably moving to another city in 2 months, so if they want to take me to court but I didn’t receive any letters what should I do… and the security guy told me it’s worse as I traveled to this city and stealing stuff. I’m home now but feeling awful, wish people could give me some advice, thank you very much.
    • Before you do any of the above – Stop! You need to spend a few days reading up on the stories on this sub- forum so that you understand the principles and you understand how to go about making your claim. We will help you – and you have a better than 95% chance of getting your money back – but you need to be in control of what you are doing. We will help you – but this is a self-help forum and you need to have done the reading so that you are confident of each step and you know your way forward. Please don't do anything at all – in particular don't send a letter of claim – until you have done all the reading and I would suggest that probably you will start drafting your letter of claim over the weekend. Also, you haven't told us anything about what has happened. We don't know dates, items dispatched, value, whether they were properly declared, whether you bought so-called insurance, you have been declined reimbursement but we don't know why. If you want us to help you then you will have to give us this basic information. Also the fact that you are an eBay trader makes this slightly more complicated although it doesn't at all affect your chances of success.  Read the other threads on this sub- forum – and especially the pinned threads at the top in order to understand the principles. You also quickly understand the kind of help that we will give you and you will understand some of the draft documents which have been used in other successful claims.
    • Thanks, I'm finishing up the skeleton and hope to have it done today. Will look at statement of case too and get that done over the next few days.
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    • We have finally managed to obtain the transcript of this case.

      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

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      Please note that a recent case against UPS failed on exactly the same issue with the judge held that the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 did not apply.

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      It would be very nice if the parcel delivery companies – including EVRi – practised this kind of thing as well.

       

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MBNA / Restons


Cartier-Bresson
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The DN is dated 6th March, which is a Friday! Read on....

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt-issues/208663-tale-dodgy-dn-further.html

 

There is an exhaustive law somewhere which strictly designates the allowed number of days, with common law postage, etc, I am so relying on one with Link. I only knew it was a Sunday because it was the same date as my son's birthday :eek:

 

You really need to get your case up and running before Sept hearing, with each clause closely followed by a quoteable law, like so many caggers have said on here, the DJ can't be expected to know every single Consumer Law, and they just need discreetly pointing out, and rest your case! Step by step, sure the more professional caggers will assist you every step of the day ;)

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What reason did the DJ give for accepting that MBNA had given you 14 days after deemed service? There must have been a specific argument used.

 

As for costs you are in small claims. Unless you have acted unreasonably in defending the application for SJ you would only be liable for issue and hearing fee costs together with any witness expenses. The fact the DJ has adjourned the hearing for MBNA to provide further evidence shows you did not act unresonably.

You may receive different advice to your query as people have different experiences and opinions. Please use your own judgement in deciding whose advice to take.

 

If in doubt seek advice from a qualified insured professional. Any advice I have offered you is done so on an informal basis, without prejudice or liability.

 

If you think I have been helpful PLEASE click the scales

 

court bundles for dummies

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One point I did find interesting though was the DJ allocated 2 hours for the next hearing. Why so long ? Yesterday's hearing was only allocated 45 mins. Do you think this is in case it actually has to go to trial ...or would this be set for another day / venue ? Or would this be to dish out my CCJ if all fails !!

 

I keep looking at this thread and something does not add up. The more I look the more I think that this is the key.

 

You must have put a good enough argument forward to get this 2 hour slot. In which case the only reason to allocate 2 hours would be because the DJ had no choice but to give you another chance to put an argument forward and they must be of the opinion that you are getting help and your next points will take time to deal with.

 

There may be issues with the CCA but at the moment I think there is more mileage in the DN. Restons must have put reasonable points forward to claim the 14 days was satisfied and from your comments you felt it was 'potentially' defective. The DJ would have no option, unless they were completely familiar with the CCA 1974 & DN's but to accept the Restons 'law speak' as you call it because on face value you had no defence to what they quoted.

 

Pedross

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Hi folks - I had 3 x copies of the Woodchester Lease case with me but never felt I had the chance to refer to it. I'm not a lawyer and found it really difficult to follow what was going on in there. I need to be much more confident the next time I go in that's for sure !

 

I can't remember what the 'specific' reason Reston's brief gave for convincing the DJ that the dates were correct on the DN but he went to great lengths to spell this out and referred to the Consumer Credit Act etc. You have to understand that I have had zero experience of being in this situation and I found the whole thing extremely distressing and stressful and difficult to focus and concentrate. The DJ was asked to go over the calander day by day etc .... it was a very convincing argument and whether he is right or wrong, I still think that the way the DJ reacted to this .... they won't be happy if I start bringing this point up again. HAving said this ... the way I feel now I am going to go in there 'guns blazing' next time ... I basically have nothing to lose ! I won't be afraid of ruffling any feathers either.

 

We are talking about 'one day' for this DN being invalid and you can appreciate it would be quite easy for somebody who knows what they are doing, to browbeat me & the DJ into thinking their way of calculating this 'breach remedy timing' was correct and within the law. The DJ was convinced and did not want to go into it any further. I'm convinced that this had something to do with the fact it was approaching 4pm an a friday afternoon ... but I can't be sure of that !

 

I'm hoping the '2 hour' slot booked for the next hearing has a positive bearing on this case. I have to go in there knowing exactly what I have to say and exactly what I have to refer to literally 'word by word' ! I think I basically wasn't well enough prepared and didn't really expect to have to do much arguing, as I wrongly assumed, if all else failed I could ask for Reston's to produce the orginal copy of the CCA ... which I know they can't. It's all well and good saying that only 'the orginal copy will do' .... but you guys were not in there unfortunately ... I was .... and the DJ said to me that this was NOT required. I did note down the specific terms used here ... they were :

 

"There was no requirement in law for the original copy to be produced. If the claimants WS confirmed that what was presented was a 'True copy thereof', then a copy of the executed agreement would suffice."

 

Now I don't agree with this for many reasons and I actually think it is a requirement in law to have the original copy presented in court. But I need to put together a completely fool proof argument to get this across to the the DJ without them feeling like I'm telling them their job and correcting them. How I do this I'm yet to establish ...but hopefully you guys will be able to help me with that. Somebody suggested a mock up of the Brief's driving licence done in photoshop including a series of DR10's .... not sure if this would go down too well !

 

If Restons can't provide them with a reason regarding Condition 11 in the next two weeks then I guess all this won't be a problem ... as I'd assume their app for SJ would be dismissed .... like it already should have been last friday !

 

I also have to assume that Reston's brief will be reading this as I understand that he has already admitted to doing this in court through a different case. [Hi ... if you are ... you certainly have the upper hand being able to read all this !]

 

Let me know how I should handle this next hearing .... I'll need to prepare a better crib sheet next time I think ! Maybe details should be PM'ed to me, in light of prying eyes .... then they can be uploaded after the event ?? Just a thought.

 

cheers > CB

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Cartier - Bresson

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Hi CB

 

Sorry your day in court did not go well, i will be in court myself in 2 weeks.

 

I feel you have to push both issues home with the judge, the DN is invalid 1 day or 5 days makes no odds regulations should should be upheld.

 

The credit agreement needs to have the prescribed terms within the document, i believe your is the same as mine, they would need to produce the original to prove that, surely two pieces of paper do not prove that.

 

I hope PT or one of the more experienced advise you on this and tear their argument to shreds.

 

GG

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Hi CartierBresson

You sound like you did extremly well in the circumnstances and can be proud of yourself that you as a LIP and no legal qualifications stood up to them and got that difficult DJ to adjourn it to another date.We are all rooting for you and the issue about Restons/MBNA trying to get away with Microfilch copies and not having one is a problem that faces us all trying to win in our war aginst MBNA as it has just been confirmed on my thread that MBNA do shred originals which in their own words is to protect customers security ! Right!:rolleyes: So its not because they trying to save on filing space and that most of their so called agreements are useless and not correctly executed or enforceable! :D i will be having to offer exactly the same arguments as you in court when they try to rely on a scanned micrfilch copy! Well done though for not giving up and letting these beggers walk all over you.As i said beore any victory a cagger has against these people is not just a victory for themselves but a victory for all us Reston victims and will hopefully make them thing twice before dragging any more future potential victims into a court room! So CB i am proud of you too and shows that even if MBNA think us ordinary legally unqualifioed LIP caggers are easy prey they are now being proved wrong! :D You scored a victory for me and other Reston victims when you walked in that court room on friday !:D

Im happy to help with support and my own opinions but as i have no legal qualifications If I offer any thoughts to your problems please take it as from my life experience only and not of any legal standing. Always take further advice from the legal experts in your final action,

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Hi CB

I am sure you will countinue to give em grief in that courtroom! We are all rooting for you and as GG said you are sure to get some help from some of the legal bods about what to do next! and how to tear these arguments to shreds!:)

Im happy to help with support and my own opinions but as i have no legal qualifications If I offer any thoughts to your problems please take it as from my life experience only and not of any legal standing. Always take further advice from the legal experts in your final action,

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CB, Please read BRW's informative post regarding court tactics.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/show-post/post-2171582.html

 

Hello Mr H!

 

Quick Links for you:

 

The Consumer Credit Act 1974

 

The Consumer Credit Act 2006

 

On a very basic documentation level, one issue to be well prepared for is the question of your Defence Bundle.

 

The Empty Desk Trick

 

Some Courts and some Judges have an amazing ability to deny ever having received any documents before the Hearing.

 

So, expect the Judge to be sitting there with an evil smile and an empty desk, eyeing up your Court Bundle on the desk in front of you! So, make sure you take extra copies of all key documents, i.e. two extra Court Bundles.

 

It will be a PITA I know, but the ideal is to take three sets of everything, such as your Defence, plus anything else that you submitted to the Court and/or the opposition that was mentioned in your Defence and/or Disclosure by List.

 

Then, when the Judge and/or the enemy say, I do not have that, you will be ready to say, no problemo, open up your big bag and say, here's a second copy I prepared just in case the Court System had misplaced the copies I have already submitted.

 

IOW, whatever you want to have in front of you, make sure you have 2 extra copies of each item, so that you will not be left without the documents you need.

 

This appears to be a little trick that some Judges like to play, and will expect you to hand them your copy, either deliberately, or because they really are duffers who can't get themselves organised and/or have a useless Court system behind them who cannot get the documents you have already submitted to the Hearing.

 

In effect, this is a strategy to throw the Litigant in Person off balance. On the day it will look all tidy and genuine, but if you don't take copies, the net effect could be that you are sitting in front of an empty desk, having been deprived of your Court Bundle and needing to defend yourself just from memory.

 

Assuming that you can find the time and money to reel off 2 extra copies, then the next step is to make sure your own master copy is completely familiar to you. Practice what you may need to say, and try going to the document that you need in your Bundle to back that up. If it takes you 60 seconds when at home, it will feel like 60 minutes in Court...with a Judge tapping his/her finger on the bench and making huffing noises.

 

So, use Post-It Notes or Tabs, page numbers, anything to help you find what you need fast, so you can quote the part you need. Make sure the copies you make for the enemy have matching page numbers to your own Bundle, but there's no need to make their copies as easy to navigate as your own. Indeed, make theirs harder to navigate, perhaps by making the page numbers very small and feint (see below)...

 

IOW, if you think you will need to quote s127(3), have a Tab sticking out of your Bundle that says 127(3). So you can flick straight to it, and then tell Judge/Enemy that the document is on Bundle Page 156.

 

While they are flicking through to find Page 156, you'll have time to read what s127(3) says, so you are ready to read it out to the Court. Perhaps use a Yellow Highlighter to put a box around any key issues on the actual page so you won't need to waste time reading through a page of Text but can zoom straight to the Paragraph you need.

 

The point being, plan ahead to buy yourself as much time in Court as you can.

Make Notes and Plan your Responses

 

Next tip is when the enemy are droning on, make detailed notes of what they are saying, and put a big circle and number around anything they say that you do not agree with. Then, when they have finished speaking, if you did not understand anything, make them repeat it, and add extra notes.

 

Then, you should end up with some notes with big circles all numbered ready to trot out your counter arguments:

 

(1) The Agreement...I disagree that the Application Form they have produced represents an Agreement, because it is missing the Prescribed Terms, it's just an Application Form, the terms they say were on the back, are clearly not a copy of the back, and would not fit on the back Sir/Madam.

 

(2) Without the Prescribed Terms, the Court cannot enforce, see s61(1)(a), s65 and s127(3)...

 

...when Judge asks: "s127(3)?"

 

...you can whizz straight to that via your little tab, and say, that's on Page 156 Sir/Madam.

 

...when the Judge says: "but wasn't s127(3) repealed?"

 

...you can say no, if you look at the bottom of page 189 in relation to Schedule 3 of The Consumer Credit Act 2006, you will see that s127(3) still applies for Agreements made before 06/04/2007. The alleged Agreement is covered by The Consumer Credit Act 1974, so s127(3) remains in force.

 

If you see what I'm getting at?

 

The key is to have all the bumf you need, and have it so you can go straight to what you want.

 

What Did He Say...?

 

Don't let anything go over your head. If the enemy starts speaking in a language that only they and the Judge seem able to understand, then stop them, and say you do not know what is being said, could the enemy please slow down and explain things in layman's terms, please, as I am a Litigant in Person. Keep saying that if needed, to make sure Judge remembers that you are not a trained Barrister.

 

Keep making notes when not speaking yourself, and don't be shy about standing up for yourself and demanding a right to respond to any points that you disagree with. Your notes being to help you frame what you want to say when you get that chance.

 

If you get a decent and fair Judge, then the Hearing will be well conducted and all of the above will work in your favour.

 

If you get a biased and hostile Judge, then all of the above will help you to keep control and get your key points across, if only for the Tape and a future Appeal.

 

A Barrister will not be phased by any tricks, and it's likely that a biased Judge won't try so many on when faced with someone trained and experienced with how the Court System works.

 

However, there's no reason why you can't hack this as a Litigant in Person, but things can get tough if you lose the Judge Lottery and get a duffer Judge or a biased Judge. That's when preparation and planning may save the day.

 

I hope this helps.

 

Cheers,

BRW

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Ok, Default Notice.

 

Dated 6th March, a Friday. Remedy date is the 23d March.

 

The regs state that there should be 14 CLEAR days for remedy.

 

IF the letter was actually posted on 6th, then according to this....

 

Interpretation of working/ business days

 

and this

 

Time-limit for responding - Ministry of Justice

 

What are working days?

 

'Working days' are all days except Saturdays and Sundays, Christmas Day, Good Friday, and Bank Holidays anywhere in the UK, as set out in the Banking and Financial Services Act 1971.

 

 

Then Saturday and Sunday cannot be included. Then the deemed service date would have been the Tuesday, 10th March 2009. This leaves just 13 days, however the notice suggests that you need to remedy BEFORE the 23rd which leaves at the most 12 days.

 

The regs also say that unless proved to the contrary that 1st class post is used then it will be deemed to have been sent 2nd class post. Can they prove that this was sent by 1st class mail.

 

I am pretty certain that all of MBNA's post is sent using Royal Mail Business postal service. They very rarely if ever use the convential post where a letter is date stamped. There is a bar code on this type of mail. BRW has been working frantically to get this decoded but so far Royal Mail arent being very co-poperative. He is convinced that the code will provide the answer to this question of when mail was in fact posted.

 

So you will need to ask for proof that it was actuall sent out on the Friday in time for that day's postal service and that it was sent 1st class.

 

I am sure I have seen a comment by surfaceagentx20.. where he says..

 

The rules are pretty clear, if Parliament had meant 13 days they would have put 13 days. They didnt, they said 14 and that is what you should be allowed.

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PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD THEN I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER ADVICE THERE:D

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Hi CitB .... That last post with BRW's quote was excellent ! It basically explains everything I should have done and didn't ! I'm still totally shocked that the DJ took my copy of my WS ! Retrospectively, I think this totally wrong footed me for the whole hearing. I can't believe I didn't make an additional copy of this document ..... it seems so obvious now !

 

The points I did make in there seemed to be answered by quite complex statements and references that I didn't really understand and didn't feel confident or experienced enough to question at the time. This won't happen next time. I was far too timid in there for fear of upsetting the DJ .... who I think was probably already annoyed anyway !

 

I will gather myself together and get my arguments organised and straight for round 2.

 

Thanks for all help - CB

Cartier - Bresson

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:) Yep, BRW gets straight to the heart of the matter.

 

One good thing to come out of this is that you now know what you are going to be up against and you can prepare better.

 

Lots of post it notes or a list of questions you must ensure you get answered.. points you need to get across.

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1: How can BCOBS protect you from your Banks unfair treatment

2: Does your Bank play fair - You can force your Bank to play Fair with you

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Advice & opinions given by citizenb are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

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I feel that this thread is proving to be a learning curve for us all.

Everyone should bookmark this especially BRT's post courtesy of CitB.

 

C-B you did a remarkable job under the circumstances and I only hope that I will be able to keep my cool when I face my judge in a couple of weeks time.

 

GK

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I dont know whether this latest post by BRW on zhanzibar's thread will be of any use.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/show-post/post-2383258.html

 

But I have linked you to it anyway :D

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4: Staying Calm About Debt  Read Here

5: Forum rules - These have been updated - Please Read

BCOBS

1: How can BCOBS protect you from your Banks unfair treatment

2: Does your Bank play fair - You can force your Bank to play Fair with you

3: Banking Conduct of Business Regulations - The Hidden Rules

4: BCOBS and Unfair Treatment - Common Examples of Banks Behaving Badly

5: Fair Treatment for Credit Card Holders and Borrowers - COBS

Advice & opinions given by citizenb are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD THEN I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER ADVICE THERE:D

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Just to add citizenB's post on how MBNA post their DN's.

 

At the moment, on the site, we are seeing that MBNA are sending out their Default Notices using UKMail delivery, which when investigated on UKMail's website specifies a 3 day delivery timescale.

Fortunately for defendants, this service is not deemed a 1st Class mail service and is classed as a 2nd class service; thus any letter using this service is deemed served after 4 days.

 

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Hi CB

 

The DN is defective which has been said several times and Restons brief claims that it is not defective. The DJ accepted the argument put forward and counted the days to be satisfied that it was in fact correct.

 

I believe that I know what has happened with the DN and what needs to be done. I can explain my point on this thread or I can PM you with the information if you do not want Restons to read it. However, I expect someone else will come along and make the point anyway.

 

I think I need to get permission from the site team to start sending PM's with advice but I am not sure how it works.

 

Pedross

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Hi Pedross

 

I would definitely appreciate the PM'ed advice if this is allowed for the time being. In light of my current situation regarding this particular case, I'm sure that we might be allowed to go down this route prior to the adjourned hearing.

 

The emphasis for me now is to ensure I take back the initiative with this case and I assume that declaring my hand in full view of the world, would not help my cause.

 

I don't know what the procedure is for this either, but I would say that if allowed, I would definitely post the details of anything of use in retropect to the hearing.

 

Any advice on this ?

 

Cheers > CB

Cartier - Bresson

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Can people please check the below argument relating to my CCA for accuracy. I intend to take this into court with me and read it out directly to the DJ so there is absolutley no confusion whatsoever. Also, could we try to consider possible responses from both the DJ and Reston's to this statement so as i can prepare for every potential angle prior to going in.

I'd also like to prepare something similar for the DN issues if possible, so if somebody can get me started with this ????

Also - should I revise my WS in response to the claimants late re-drafted WS sent to me 2 days before my first hearing ? Another comment I have remembered that the DJ made about my WS, was that it was felt I had 'thrown the kitchen sink' at this .... shame they never bothered to read it then !

Cheers folks > CB

Argument against CCA provided by MBNA

Sir / Madam …..

Exhibit xxx shows what has been referred to in the claimant’s Witness Statement dated 18th August 2009 as ‘a true copy of the records maintained on the Claimant’s Microfiche’ is actually just a copy of the front page of the credit card application form signed by the defendant on 27th December 2001.

This document does not represent an ‘agreement’ as it does not contain the prescribed terms required as stated in Section 60 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974, which clearly state:

Section 60 - Form and Content of Agreement

[1] The Secretary of State shall make regulations as to the form and content of documents embodying regulated agreement, and the regulations shall contain such proviosions as appear to him appropriate with a view ensuring that the debtor or hirer is made aware of:

A] The rights and duties conferred or imposed on him by the agreement

B] The amount and rate of the total charge for credit [in the case of a consuer credit agreement]

C] The protection and remedies available to him under this act

D] Any other matter which, in the opinion of the Secretary of State, it is desirable for him to know about in connection with the agreement.

The document provided by the claimant is simply the front copy of an application form. The second page of this document entitled ‘Financial and Related Conditions’ is clearly not a correct copy of the back of this document as it does not relate in anyway to the front application form as discussed with the mention of Condition 11 [the use, recording or disclosure of Personal Information] referred to under ‘Principal Card Holders Request & Declaration’. [Condition 11 on the back copy relates to Increased Interest Rates]

Without the prescribed terms [as mentioned above] being included within the four corners of the signed agreement, the court cannot enforce this document as a valid consumer credit agreement as per Section 61 [1] [a] of the said act:

Section 61 - Signing of Agreement

[1] A regulated agreement is not properly executed unless:

[A] A document in the prescribed form itself containing all the prescribed terms and conforming to regulations under section 60 [1] is signed in the prescribed manner by both the debtor or hirer and by or on behalf of the creditor or owner,

Could I therefore request that the court insists upon seeing the ‘original copy’ of this presented agreement from the Claimant, as proof that it exists in the manner with which the Claimant refers to in the Witness Statement dated 18th August 2009.

Can the court also confirm that this extremely important point in itself should be enough for the claimant’s application for Summary Judgment to be struck out with immediate effect and the case go to trial forthwith.

Cartier - Bresson

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This might also be of use to you, CB. Provided by Pal Walton on another thread.

 

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/show-post/post-2384636.html

 

 

I'd print off the document below and produce it in court.

 

 

 

Paul

 

 

RBSSCAM.jpg

 

It is proof tht "recreation of documents" does happen.

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Uploading documents to CAG ** Instructions **

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2: Take back control of your finances - Debt Diaries

3: Feel Bullied by Creditors or Debt Collectors? Read Here

4: Staying Calm About Debt  Read Here

5: Forum rules - These have been updated - Please Read

BCOBS

1: How can BCOBS protect you from your Banks unfair treatment

2: Does your Bank play fair - You can force your Bank to play Fair with you

3: Banking Conduct of Business Regulations - The Hidden Rules

4: BCOBS and Unfair Treatment - Common Examples of Banks Behaving Badly

5: Fair Treatment for Credit Card Holders and Borrowers - COBS

Advice & opinions given by citizenb are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD THEN I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER ADVICE THERE:D

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In answer to your question, yes, you should be able to redraft / amend your Witness statement in order to counter their late submission.

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3: Feel Bullied by Creditors or Debt Collectors? Read Here

4: Staying Calm About Debt  Read Here

5: Forum rules - These have been updated - Please Read

BCOBS

1: How can BCOBS protect you from your Banks unfair treatment

2: Does your Bank play fair - You can force your Bank to play Fair with you

3: Banking Conduct of Business Regulations - The Hidden Rules

4: BCOBS and Unfair Treatment - Common Examples of Banks Behaving Badly

5: Fair Treatment for Credit Card Holders and Borrowers - COBS

Advice & opinions given by citizenb are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

PLEASE DO NOT ASK ME TO GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU PROVIDE A LINK TO YOUR THREAD THEN I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER ADVICE THERE:D

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Hi CB this is what I believe may have happened:

The bottom line is that they convinced the DJ that the DN was valid and the only way they could do that is if they could prove it was served by the 8th. They might have just ignored the fact it was posted on a Friday and counted 2 days + 14 days however I doubt it and the CCA 1974 is clear on what it means by ‘serve’

189. (l) In this Act, unless the context otherwise requires—

“ serve on “ means deliver or send by post to;

There is already a Practice Direction regarding Service of Documents - First and Second Class Mail which you are familiar with and which makes it defective. Therefore, in my opinion, to make it valid the Reston’s brief must have used Section 69 CCA 1974 (7) and claimed that it was served when it was posted. He would have claimed that if it was intended to be the case in this section it would be the case in other sections too.

69.(1) If within the period specified in section 68 the debtor or hirer under a

cancellable agreement serves on—

(a) the creditor or owner, or

(b) the person specified in the notice under section 64(1), or

© a person who (whether by virtue of subsection (6) or otherwise) is the agent of

the creditor or owner, a notice (a " notice of cancellation ") which, however expressed and whether or not conforming to the notice given under section 64(1), indicates the intention of the debtor or hirer to withdraw from the agreement, the notice shall operate—etc etc………

(7) Whether or not it is actually received by him, a notice of cancellation sent by post to a person shall be deemed to be served on him at the time of posting.

Therefore, the date of service is the date it was posted, a good argument. However, the CCA is an act for the protection of consumers and s189 states the meaning of ‘serve on’ unless the context otherwise requires. In s69 because the act is to protect consumers I believe there is a requirement to vary the meaning of ‘serve on’ in case a large corporation does not receive the cancelation notice in the correct department or does not act on it straight away and as it is an important notice from the debtor different rules are appropriate. Therefore, s69 (7) would not apply to a notice from a creditor regarding a completely different matter and the DN is therefore defective.

Failure of a default notice to be accurate not only invalidates the default notice 'Woodchester Lease Management Services Ltd v Swain and Co - 2001' GCCR 2255' but is a unlawful rescission of contract which would not only prevent the court enforcing any alleged debt, but give me a counter claim for damages Kpohraror v Woolwich Building Society '1996' 4 All ER 119

To sum up, in this Act, (CCA 1974) unless the context otherwise requires, the normal service by post timescales would determine when it was served. However, with further regard to consumer protection cancelation notices from the debtor require otherwise.

Pedross

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Hi CB this is what I believe may have happened:

 

The bottom line is that they convinced the DJ that the DN was valid and the only way they could do that is if they could prove it was served by the 8th. They might have just ignored the fact it was posted on a Friday and counted 2 days + 14 days however I doubt it and the CCA 1974 is clear on what it means by ‘serve’

 

189. (l) In this Act, unless the context otherwise requires—

 

“ serve on “ means deliver or send by post to;

 

There is already a Practice Direction regarding Service of Documents - First and Second Class Mail which you are familiar with and which makes it defective. Therefore, in my opinion, to make it valid the Reston’s brief must have used Section 69 CCA 1974 (7) and claimed that it was served when it was posted. He would have claimed that if it was intended to be the case in this section it would be the case in other sections too.

 

69.(1) If within the period specified in section 68 the debtor or hirer under a

cancellable agreement serves on—

(a) the creditor or owner, or

(b) the person specified in the notice under section 64(1), or

© a person who (whether by virtue of subsection (6) or otherwise) is the agent of

the creditor or owner, a notice (a " notice of cancellation ") which, however expressed and whether or not conforming to the notice given under section 64(1), indicates the intention of the debtor or hirer to withdraw from the agreement, the notice shall operate—etc etc………

 

(7) Whether or not it is actually received by him, a notice of cancellation sent by post to a person shall be deemed to be served on him at the time of posting.

 

Therefore, the date of service is the date it was posted, a good argument. However, the CCA is an act for the protection of consumers and s189 states the meaning of ‘serve on’ unless the context otherwise requires. In s69 because the act is to protect consumers I believe there is a requirement to vary the meaning of ‘serve on’ in case a large corporation does not receive the cancelation notice in the correct department or does not act on it straight away and as it is an important notice from the debtor different rules are appropriate. Therefore, s69 (7) would not apply to a notice from a creditor regarding a completely different matter and the DN is therefore defective.

 

Failure of a default notice to be accurate not only invalidates the default notice 'Woodchester Lease Management Services Ltd v Swain and Co - 2001' GCCR 2255' but is a unlawful rescission of contract which would not only prevent the court enforcing any alleged debt, but give me a counter claim for damages Kpohraror v Woolwich Building Society '1996' 4 All ER 119

 

To sum up, in this Act, (CCA 1974) unless the context otherwise requires, the normal service by post timescales would determine when it was served. However, with further regard to consumer protection cancelation notices from the debtor require otherwise.

 

 

Pedross

 

Some excellent points to be noted - and very well made.

 

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Just popping on to see how you doing Cartier B! That post looks great about disputing your microfilch copy ! That was awful that a DJ trying to allow Restons to get away with that:mad: and glad you fighting them back.No justice that they atempt to allow microfilch copies with the advent of photo shop especially as the crux of the matter is the way the agreement is arranged in displaying the prescribed terms .

Im happy to help with support and my own opinions but as i have no legal qualifications If I offer any thoughts to your problems please take it as from my life experience only and not of any legal standing. Always take further advice from the legal experts in your final action,

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