A.S. Securi-T ticket in McDonalds

[Nem]

Hi all

 

This is an amazing forum and resource! I commend you all on your efforts and willingness to help in the stories I've seen mentioned!

 

The story so far:

 

I found this forum the day after my car received a "Parking Charge Notice" for the sum of GBP69 (rising to GBP92 after 14 days) for my car (I am registered keeper) apparently being parked for over the 90mins allowed. The ticket has a time on it that suggests it was marked as later than the time the person returned and retrieved the ticket, this is very marginal and there is no known proof so far either way. The "Parking Charge Notice" says a photo was taken at 10:50, and the ticket issued at 12:25 (I would assume this is 10:50->12:20 for the 90mins then 5 more mins to issue the ticket). There is no mention of a 12:20/12:25 photo.

 

The car park does not appear to have CCTV overall, but it does look like the McDonalds facility has CCTV covering its Drive-Thru windows.

 

After receiving the ticket, opening it and reading it - the driver walked to the drive thru window (that may well have been caught on CCTV?) to ask where the attendant was that issued this ticket as it was not yet 12:25. The staff were wholly unhelpful and after a while of looking around for the attendant and further talks with staff, the driver tried to contact the number on the sign. This call only reached an automated pay service - offices closed on a Sunday. This call is recorded as 12:28 on the online bill.

 

Reading the forums I see that appealing/discussion and argument seem to get very little results when it comes to arguing the timings. I am awaiting a letter to arrive from the firm as yet.

 

I want to fight this for many reasons and of the approaches I've read, I prefer not ignoring the letters and would like to send the template replies. I have some concerns though having never done this before:

 

1) If they have a photo of the driver returning to my car (Doubtful) - will this process fail?

2) Will CCTV footage of the driver at the drive-thru window incriminate them?

3) If the firm are slow in providing the eviedence and the cost rises to £92 - will the driver have to pay this higher amount?

4) When should the first letter arrive?

 

Thankyou for any help you can offer!

[crem]

I want to fight this for many reasons and of the approaches I've read, I prefer not ignoring the letters and would like to send the template replies. I have some concerns though having never done this before:

 

Feel free to do so, but you will be absolutely, totally, and frustratingly wasting your time. If you search the forums you will not find a single case of "your appeal has been accepted" being reported.

 

1) If they have a photo of the driver returning to my car (Doubtful) - will this process fail?

 

Photo will make no difference. The process will fail anyway.

 

2) Will CCTV footage of the driver at the drive-thru window incriminate them?

 

No. But you still lost your appeal

 

3) If the firm are slow in providing the eviedence and the cost rises to £92 - will the driver have to pay this higher amount?

 

Only if the driver is daft enough to even think of paying. Please convince the driver to chop of both his hands if he feels even close to writing a cheque.

 

4) When should the first letter arrive?

 

2 to 3 weeks after they get your details sold to them by the DVLA. Another 5 or 6 letters will come after that from them, then their DCA (actually that is them as well just pretending to be a DCA) then a couple from their house trained pet solicitor then they give up. Please note however, the more you write to them, if at all, this number of letters from them could increase.

 

Thankyou for any help you can offer!

 

Advise remains:-

 

Do not contact them

Do not write to them

Do not "appeal"

Do not reply to any of their [problem] mail

[Nem]

Crem

 

Thanks for that (and giving me a laugh at the cutting off hands bit!).

 

Having done nothing whatsoever yet - you suggest that the most successful route is to not even reply to this/these letter(s) at all? As opposed to using the template letters?

 

My natural inclination is to not stick my head in the sand so to speak. But if that is the wisest thing to do.....

[pin1onu]

First up please stop treating this alleged debt as though it had any legitimacy. This is little more than a [problem]. Have a read through the template letters and also this link. Also have a read of this http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/parking-traffic-offences/164651-problems-ppcs-face.html.

 

Basically they are trying to make you pay a charge for an alleged breach of contract. As the parking is otherwise free, then this amount fails as it is, amongst other things, a penalty charge. (same reasons as bank charges are).

 

The reason for ignoring the PPCs is mainly that they give up quicker and move on to other targets. They will also treat you as a "hooked fish" and try various threats to intimidate you into paying. They will bombard you with paperwork but usually stop short of actually taking you to court. A.S.-T and McD's are well known. There are a couple of threads on this already. (Try searching for Gatwick McDonalds on this forum).

 

A couple of pointers - if this comes to court (very unlikely) as the plaitiff in the case the PPC has to prove their case. A judge will decide using the law and the balance of probabilities what has happened and if a debt exists. If you've read the threads above you'll have plenty of reasons as to the difficulties they face in trying to bring a case.

 

They have to provide evidence that supports their case at some point or else you can legitimately ignore it.

 

I want to fight this for many reasons and of the approaches I've read, I prefer not ignoring the letters and would like to send the template replies. I have some concerns though having never done this before:

 

1) If they have a photo of the driver returning to my car (Doubtful) - will this process fail?

 

No - it may make it easier in a court situation for them to identify you but they still have to make the initial identification. If I sent you a photo of me you wouldn't have a clue as to my real name, address etc. Remember they cannot compel you tell them.

 

 

2) Will CCTV footage of the driver at the drive-thru window incriminate them?

No - a photo doesn't prove anything. If anything it backs up your story. Remember they have to find out who the driver was.

 

3) If the firm are slow in providing the eviedence and the cost rises to £92 - will the driver have to pay this higher amount?

You would have a case for having the amount reduced by the court to the discount period. You might if you accepted the debt and a judge agreed it was lawful. However

 

4) When should the first letter arrive?

 

They usually wait a few weeks to give you a chance to pay. They then obtain the Registered Keeper details from the DVLA. They will write to you as the Registered Keeper and state you are liable for a debt that a driver has incurred. Remember the RK and the Driver are not necessarily the same person. You as the RK do not have to reveal who the driver is.

 

I can understand you being upset and/or angry but honestly these guys have never taken anyone who is properly prepared to court. They have a few victories where the defendent never showed up but have stayed away themselves when faced with a proper defense. If they do actually send you court papers then post back here and there will be people to help you put a defense together. Until they do your best bet is to ignore and spend your time on pursuits you enjoy.

[Nem]

Thankyou Pin1onu

 

I will follow your advice.

 

Why don't the firms use recorded delivery for this? I suppose the case is still weak even if you do reply to the letters.

 

 

If it went to court and the driver was forced to pay - would there be the firms legal costs to cover as well in defeat?

[pin1onu]

Thankyou Pin1onu

 

I will follow your advice.

 

Why don't the firms use recorded delivery for this? I suppose the case is still weak even if you do reply to the letters.

 

 

If it went to court and the driver was forced to pay - would there be the firms legal costs to cover as well in defeat?

They don't use recorded delivery because it costs them extra and they are not really interested in timelines only in your money.

 

Extra fees Yes there could be - normally the filing fee and possibly for a lawyer showing in court, maybe parking for the hearing and/or travel costs. It is up to the judge what he allows. BTW you can counter claim for your expenses so that when you win you can get a judgement against them.

[Al27]

It's a percentages game. Say they give out 30 letters a day - 10 will pay up, 10 more will pay up after more threatening letters and 10 never respond and get binned.

 

It's a mail [problem]. Nothing more.

[Nem]

Extra fees wouldn't be good.

 

I am only worried that ignoring the letters might mean I miss the chance to ask them for proof of the driver. What happens if they have this and I have been assuming that they have a futile case?

 

Does the driver just argue that they never entered a contract even though there are massive signs all around?

[Nem]

It's a percentages game. Say they give out 30 letters a day - 10 will pay up, 10 more will pay up after more threatening letters and 10 never respond and get binned.

 

It's a mail [problem]. Nothing more.

 

So they eventually just give up no matter what pictures/photos/CCTV footage they might have?

[Northern_Lass]

Hi Nem,

 

Listen to these guys! They know what they are talking about. I only found this site after I had appealed twice - and *surprise* lost twice - now I'm getting increasingly threatening letters as PIN1ONU mentioned - the hooked fish list - I'm on it! Although ignoring now, but they are still trying - They see people as an easy target if you appeal. But I'm also very stubborn!

 

I also asked for the pics and evidence but they just ignored the requests - so now i'm ignoring them.

 

Do not contact them. Its a waste of time. Believe me.

[Nem]

Northern Lass - thanks for that!

 

Ignoring also means I won't get stressed writing loads of replies which I like

[Al27]

Extra fees wouldn't be good.

 

No, but remember chances of court action are miniscule and chances of them winning are even smaller. It's £69 - the time spent preparing court papers and in court on the day makes it's completely unviable financially. It would be unviable even if they had a 100% chance of winning, let alone a virtually unwinnable case. Also remember that we're not talking about clever people here - they spend their days sending out letters, not being Kavanagh QC.

The court action threat is just a tool in their toolbox to make their victims think they have to pay.

 

I am only worried that ignoring the letters might mean I miss the chance to ask them for proof of the driver. What happens if they have this and I have been assuming that they have a futile case?

 

Even if they had a high definition CCTV image with surround sound of you waving to the camera, it doesn't help them. They don't know who you are - they can't take a picture of a person to court. They would just have to take the registered keeper to court and prey to God it was the driver on the day (which is hardly the way to bring cases to court).

And that's all assuming their measly alleged debt of £69 exists in the first place...

 

Does the driver just argue that they never entered a contract even though there are massive signs all around?

 

Plenty of defences for the illegitimacy of the charge. They parking companies like to think a sign saying "If you park here you agree to pay a parking charge of £69" is a cast iron contract. It isn't, otherwise they would make it £10,000 and take each and every person to court, winning every time and jetting off to retire in Hawaii.

 

Even before we get onto the unenforceability of the charge and who the driver was, the parking company nearly always stuffs themselves with illegal paperwork (2006 Fraud Act, 2008 Unfair Consumer Regulations etc).

They don't care though because they have no intention of taking anyone to court - nobody will ever pull them up on their unlawful paperwork, so they go to town on the naughty letters.

[Northern_Lass]

No worries Nem - Just be prepared though for some more letters though before they give up - this isnt the end but the end will come quick enough if you dont respond. Just keep in your mind that they want your hard earned paper round money so they will push it to see if you will crack.

[pin1onu]

They don't care though because they have no intention of taking anyone to court - nobody will ever pull them up on their unlawful paperwork, so they go to town on the naughty letters.

If you can be bothered it won't hurt to report them to trading standards if their paperwork is naughty. Probably won't do much good, but if enough people complain then, you never know, they may act.

 

You can also check if their paperwork complies with the Companies Act and report them to Companies House Compliance section if it doesn't e.g. The address of the registered office for the company is required on all paperwork - penalties can be (and are) issued for breaches of this requirement.

 

I like the old saying "Don't get mad - Get even".

[Nem]

I saw some stuff about the wording being misleading. I think my ticket (I might scan it up later once I can do it with obscuring the details) might well fall in to this category.