Smarterchick and Securitisations

[roony]

Well, i got the info about finding the land registery in the prospectus from one of supersleuths posts, i havent had a chance to test it fully yet & im still in the process of inspecting the s.395 forms

 

So the guide will be up for revision once i've tested all the steps thoroughly, this is what i've gathered so far

 

Elizabeth the guide is for all mortgages, as most mortgages are securitised

 

I'm sure someone like SS will be along soon to answer your questions better then i can, i'm still researching everything atm

 

Elizabeth regarding remortgages, have you checked the multiple contract threads on here?

 

A remortgage would come under a multiple agreement contract, a multiple agreement contract is alot easier to challenge then a regular contract, well worth looking into, as they come under the CCA 1975, as smarterchick pointed out

Edited May 8, 2009 by roony

[Smarterchick]

Elizabeth regarding remortgages, have you checked the multiple contract threads on here?

 

A remortgage would come under a multiple agreement contract, a multiple agreement contract is alot easier to challenge then a regular contract, well worth looking into

 

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/171037-multiple-agreements-falling-within-4.html Post 61 :D

Edited May 8, 2009 by Smarterchick

[enoughisenough]

Roony

 

May I echo the comments of other caggers. An excellent post. Helpful to all including those that already know the digging/sleuthing process. I got my prospectuses from the FSA - however you have to print them - they block you from emailing them to yourself or burning them - so that is an admitted drawback. Better to have them digitally so that their salient points can be extracted with ease rather than retyping.

 

Elizabeth1. Yes Abbey do securitise and on just a big a scale as sub-prime muppets. Check out an entity called Holmes. Oh and the securitisation process has extended into just about every aspect of your financial existence you can think of: endowments; loans; credit cards; life insurance; health insurance; death insurance; car insurance; contents insurance and buildings insurance (goes without saying!). THis is a very very murky sea we are all sailing in, and we didn't even know until we got there. This is without doubt the biggest Heist of all time. Most of us have focused on the arguments of Carmel Butler. RIGHTLY SO - a securitisation debunker second to none. What I found when I was going through the TSC reports however (in no way diminishing but rather adding to CBs arguments was a submission by Greg Pytel of the London School of Economics - an excellent submission on exactly the same vein!)

 

Got a hold of 'my' 395 form from CH website - costs a quid - bit it didn't hold title numbers . Have these been purged? If so there are an awful lot of determined but nervous SPiVs out there.

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello EIE!

 

I got my prospectuses from the FSA - however you have to print them - they block you from emailing them to yourself or burning them - so that is an admitted drawback. Better to have them digitally so that their salient points can be extracted with ease rather than retyping.

 

Just a quick comment to say that if you can do, say, a Screen Shot of the Text, then it's not that hard to run the Image through, say, Microsoft Document Imaging (Free with MS Office), to run an Optical Character Recognition (OCR) pass, and then Export that to Word.

 

It's not perfect, but a quick check of the Words against the Screen, and you can soon fix any bits it has missed.

 

Other software will do this as well, so it can be done if you can get the Text up on screen. A pain, I appreciate, if it's a 400 Page document, but OK if you have found the page you want, and only want to OCR one page to get at the Text.

 

Cheers,

BRW

[elizabeth1]

Well, i got the info about finding the land registery in the prospectus from one of supersleuths posts, i havent had a chance to test it fully yet & im still in the process of inspecting the s.395 forms

 

So the guide will be up for revision once i've tested all the steps thoroughly, this is what i've gathered so far

 

Elizabeth the guide is for all mortgages, as most mortgages are securitised

 

I'm sure someone like SS will be along soon to answer your questions better then i can, i'm still researching everything atm

 

Elizabeth regarding remortgages, have you checked the multiple contract threads on here?

A remortgage would come under a multiple agreement contract, a multiple agreement contract is alot easier to challenge then a regular contract, well worth looking into, as they come under the CCA 1975, as smarterchick pointed out

 

Mmm!! Right OK then.

 

As far as the Multiple Agreements would go I can say that it's a scenario where original mortgage was say £28k in 1999 and the and additional/remortgage of roughly £30k (will dig figures out to double check that) so CCA & Multiple Agreements may not apply to this?

 

You see the original 1999 mortgage was a 10 year fixed rate = supposed to run to 2009. BUT because all eggs were in an Abbey basket (mortgage, current accounts, personal loan, insurances, life cover, income protection etc..) it was incredibly easy for Abbey to maximise all their charges and void the income protection = it was more profitable for them to bounce the DD for income protection than to pay it? It meant we were in a "TOUGH PLACE" facing repo.

 

The income protection was set up to be more than ample to allow us to repay ALL of our financial committments should either of us hit a rough patch (illness, redundancy etc..) - but cause of the endless charges things soon cascaded into a nightmare for us where every month we owed more money cause of the DD's bouncing and charges they applied to accounts.

 

These Abbey people threw us a lifeline and basically told us remortgage whole package and repay them the huge charges we owed them "we'll call it a home improvement loan for the paperwork".

 

No need to guess what we did - we'd two kiddies and a repo order from court. It meant we'd lost the fixed rate we originally had and they charged us a bucket load of dosh for the remortgage Abbey was in "win, win" situation?

 

I'll have to do some work on this one as it's needled me for too long

[roony]

Roony

 

Got a hold of 'my' 395 form from CH website - costs a quid - bit it didn't hold title numbers . Have these been purged? If so there are an awful lot of determined but nervous SPiVs out there.

 

 

I should've made this point clearer, so i've added a section

 

3.1 From there using the date of the prospectus, you need to make a s.425 request to the spv, to see the charge, LISTED on the 395 forms stored at the spv's premises

 

You might have to inspect multiple 395 forms stored at the spv's premises, from the date of your mortgage, to find the one which links to your prospectus.

 

From what i've heard from a few Cagger's, the charge paperwork listed at the spv companies building, might also contain the Land registration number of your property, & other mortgage details like the transaction number, I havent been able to confirm this as yet.

 

This will provide proof of the charge linking the spv to the prospectus

 

You can either request the company for the documents, or go down & inspect the documents yourself.

 

 

 

 

Elizabeth, have you challenged the penalties? If this was the main cause of your repo, you need to challenge this, even if your mortgage has been repackaged

 

A remortgage is a 2nd charge, this falls under the multiple contract agreement, so yes its liable under the CCA, check the land registry for a 2nd charge

Edited May 8, 2009 by roony

[JonCris]

Anyone on here live in or near Tunbridge Wells?

[scedminc]

Anyone on here live in or near Tunbridge Wells?

 

Hi Joncris,

 

I'm not a million miles away about an hour away.

[elizabeth1]

 

Elizabeth, have you challenged the penalties? If this was the main cause of your repo, you need to challenge this, even if your mortgage has been repackaged

 

A remortgage is a 2nd charge, this falls under the multiple contract agreement, so yes its liable under the CCA, check the land registry for a 2nd charge

 

Hi Roony,

 

YES we did challenge the charges in 2007/8 and went through FOS - it ended up they gave us a gesture of goodwill cause they were perfectly right to charge us they refunded equivalent amount.

 

However - I've just gone through our land registry papers and will PM you.

[enoughisenough]

Hi guys

 

Sorry for disappearing - a confluence of bad situations occurred this week which have prevented my ability to get going on this - and other related threads.

 

I will be posting my quid's worth soon!

 

Keep the faith. EIE.

[roony]

Elizabeth if you can clearly show the penalties forced you to remortgage, this is clearly a breach of contract, i'm not an expert on this issue, if you search for 2nd charges on this forum, using google, theres plenty of information on how to handle this.

 

Also you should contact the National Association of Mortgage Victims, as they specialise in cases like yours & succesfully won several cases, similar to yours.

 

House Repossession, Repossession, Stop Repossession - National Association of Mortgage Victims

 

The FOS clearly fobbed you off with a refund, as penalties causing arrears, are clearly a breach of contract.

[elizabeth1]

Elizabeth if you can clearly show the penalties forced you to remortgage, this is clearly a breach of contract, i'm not an expert on this issue, if you search for 2nd charges on this forum, using google, theres plenty of information on how to handle this.

 

Also you should contact the National Association of Mortgage Victims, as they specialise in cases like yours & succesfully won several cases, similar to yours.

 

House Repossession, Repossession, Stop Repossession - National Association of Mortgage Victims

 

The FOS clearly fobbed you off with a refund, as penalties causing arrears, are clearly a breach of contract.

 

 

Thanks for this - I've been sat on this one a while trying to figure which way to go with it.

 

We'd two Abbey current accounts with - £6k charges between them all charged over a few months. Because we'd been silly and "kept it simple" and had ALL Abbey products (buildings ins, contents ins, life protection, income protection, loan, mortgage, sec loan, current acc's) so when my OH was made redundant the charges were awful as every DD they applied for time and time again racking up charges as it went along we were soon seeing they'd not let us use the income protection policy we'd paid into for years (to salvage situations like redundancy) Abbey voided the policy cause of unpaid DD's and charged us £6k in the current accounts - everything we earnt got gulped in charges. (we got the bank charges back off them as GOGW they'll never say they were wrong to cripple us financially)

 

ALSO they'd charged loads to the mortgage account which we reclaimed in FOS. It was awful what we were charged in charges - they literally broke us.

 

I'll look at the site you showed me and see what they recommend - it'll be interesting to see what they say, I'll look at the ERC threads too cause I am sure we'd have a case amongst the stuff that happened to us.

 

Thank you

[roony]

Liz, if you have a remortgage & its not registered as a 2nd charge at the land registry, this is illegal, if you look in the Carmel Butler thread it states mortgages secured on your property have to be registered with the land registery. Again im not an expert on this particular issue,but you should definitely challenge it in court, if your mortgage isnt registered with the land registery, they cant expect you to pay anything towards the mortgage. It also makes the contract void, again im not an expert on this issue, but you should definitely challenge the contract if its not registered.

 

 

Penalties which force you to go into arrears on your mortgage are a breach of contract, unfortunately i cant remember the threads which refer to this.

 

 

It also sounds like you have a PPI claim you can challenge too, as they shouldve paid if your OH was covered by the PPI when he was made redundant.

[elizabeth1]

Liz, if you have a remortgage & its not registered as a 2nd charge at the land registry, this is illegal, if you look in the Carmel Butler thread it states mortgages secured on your property have to be registered with the land registery. Again im not an expert on this particular issue,but you should definitely challenge it in court, if your mortgage isnt registered with the land registery, they cant expect you to pay anything towards the mortgage. It also makes the contract void, again im not an expert on this issue, but you should definitely challenge the contract if its not registered.

 

 

Penalties which force you to go into arrears on your mortgage are a breach of contract, unfortunately i cant remember the threads which refer to this.

 

 

It also sounds like you have a PPI claim you can challenge too, as they shouldve paid if your OH was covered by the PPI when he was made redundant.

 

 

Thankyou!! I shall do a search in the morning on these topics and see what I can find.

[roony]

hi, np definitely contact namv as it looks like you've got a good case against abbey.

 

Especially if they charge interest on those penalties too, which is definitely againt the unfair contract terms & cca

 

You should also try & get an audit to check if theyre charging you the correct interest rate. Banks always overcharge interest rates, so its worth doing. Its also a breach of contract.

[roony]

hi liz, some links to consider, could you create a thread to post further info in

 

Penalties come under mcob s.12

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/show-post/post-1936618.html

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/mortgage-companies/54502-urgent-court-advice-northern.html

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/other-institutions/546-sothern-pacific-mortgages-settling.html#post6101

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/mortgage-companies/28546-dolly-redstone-mortgages-erc.html

 

Unfair contract terms

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt-issues/139584-application-consumer-credit-act.html

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt-issues/179944-default-notice-period-7-a.html

Edited May 9, 2009 by roony

[IS IT ME?]

looking in lol

[Smarterchick]

This is the securitisation s.395 form from Holmes Financing No.9 Ltd used by Abbey National to securitise their mortgages and possibly the one used to snare my own mortgage product, the section below is the Companies House form which is the final page of the attachment.

 

Can SS or someone look at this for me and tell me if this tells us what we need to know about the securitisation of their mortgages in relation to repossession should I decide to use this as evidence that abbey don't own my mtg and like Scedminc on the Preferred thread put me in a position to question Abbeys right to repo?

 

I would also like to know what the next step Abbey could take to counter this move? Would they buy back? - if so, would they not have issued proceedings when they didn't own the mtg and therefore put me under stress, strain and wrongful litigation and what might my recourse be?

 

 

 

Holmes Financing No 9 Ltd form 395.pdf

 

 

 

CERTIFICATE OF THE REGISTRATION

OF A MORTGAGE OR CHARGE

Pursuant to section 401(2) of the Companies Act 1985

COMPANY No. 05115696

 

THE REGISTRAR OF COMPANIES FOR ENGLAND AND WALES HEREBY CERTIFIES THAT A NINTH ISSUER DEED OF CHARGE DATED THE 8th DECEMBER 2005 AND CREATED BY HOLMES FINANCING (NO.9) PLC FOR SECURING ALL MONIES DUE OR TO BECOME DUE FROM THE COMPANY TO THE BANK OF NEW YORK, LONDON BRANCH (FOR ITSELF AND ON BEHALF OF THE OTHER NINTH ISSUER SECURED CREDITORS) OR ANY OF THE NINTH ISSUER SECURED CREDITORS ON ANY ACCOUNT WHATSOEVER

UNDER THE TERMS OF THE AFOREMENTIONED INSTRUMENT CREATING OR

EVIDENCING THE CHARGE WAS REGISTERED PURSUANT TO CHAPTER 1 PART XII OF THE COMPANIES ACT 1985 ON THE 20th DECEMBER 2005.

GIVEN AT COMPANIES HOUSE, CARDIFF THE 22nd DECEMBER 2005.

[supersleuth]

Hi Smarterchick,

 

You have posted a copy of the 395 CERTIFICATE which is good to have, but also it would be worth have a copy of the actual 395 FORM which will contain more detail. Nonetheless, the certificate proves that they have created a legal sub-charge on your mortgage, (which, incidentally when a sub-charge is created, that too should be registered at the LR under the LRA 2002 see, e.g. the first part under the heading "first registrations" and also see s.27).

 

Whilst we have seen evidence of orginator's buying back the loans, it is in fact rare that the loans get bought back. The only circumstance under which loans would be bought back is when the seller is shown to have made a false representation. In the Mortgage Purchase/Sale agreements between the seller and the SPV, there is a section where the seller gives certain representations, e.g. the loan to value of each loan is 80%. If one or some of the loans turn out to have been given on a LTV of say 82% that would constitute a false representation and then the SPV could demand that the seller buy it back for false representation. But these buy-backs are rare.

 

Therefore don't get bogged down with whether your mortgage may or may not have been bought back because even if it was, your mortgage would have been dumped in the next securitisation pool anyway. Also, you only need to adduce evidence to show that ABBEY do NOT own your mortgage.

 

If ABBEY want to prove that it was bought back - then that's for them to prove (and it is unlikely that they will do that - and even if they did, then they'd have securitised it again anyway.) Plus, it is likely that the solicitor will not have a clue about securitisation anyway and won't try to rebut your evidence, nor will the administrators have a clue, and they will probably not know where your mortgage is anyway plus, they often loose the paperwork anyway!

 

Just show the court that you have evidence that ABBEY do NOT own your mortgage, that's enough to cast down on the validity of their claim - then the ball is in ABBEY's court.

[tifo]

I'm with Abbey (ANMF) and want to make a start finding out info by doing a SAR. Does anyone have the address to send this to?

 

I sent a letter to the Milton Keynes office requesting arrears charges back but they never replied.

[Smarterchick]

Thanks SS, I was hoping you'd pop in..

 

I know you covered this generally before, but I'm still a bit green as to where (or if I need to) I find exactly where my mtg Title number might show as part of this securitisation sale - like a part number of an engine on an invoice for goods supplied. I presume some kind of list is supplied to the SPV or noteholders quantifying the batch of mtgs in the prospectus, but would that need to go to Companies House and is that where I can find them do you think?

[enoughisenough]

Hi guys

 

The following pretty much confirms that even if the SPV does redeem the mortgage it nonetheless packages it up again in the next pool.

 

2.52 per cent. of the Loans in the Initial Mortgage Pool were the subject of a previous securitisation transaction by Southern Pacific Securities G PLC (the “SPS G Loans”). This securitisation transaction has been redeemed and, as part of that process, SPML has repurchased the SPS G Loans.

 

Cheers EIE.

[Smarterchick]

Hi guys

 

The following pretty much confirms that even if the SPV does redeem the mortgage it nonetheless packages it up again in the next pool.

 

 

 

Cheers EIE.

 

 

Which explains why Holmes Financing No1, 2,3,4, & 5 Ltd etc. all get put into voluntary liquidation at some point down the line, I think they are up to No 10 just now and it seems as you say, that they are picking up the old ones along the way. Weird business if you ask me.

[Smarterchick]

..and, whilst I'm on a bit of a roll, I thought I'd take a peek at another old friend of mine Swift Advances and what did I find in their cupboard? This is unlike the Abbey one in so far as it is from a debenture on the finance company itself, but there is reference to Kestrel under the spv area, but to date Swift have always assured one and all their accounts remain on balance sheet and are not, and never have been securitised. Can someone also take a peek and tell me if you think the same please? Thank ye kind ladies & gents

Swift 395 Caylon SA. pdf.pdf

Swift 395 Singer Freidlander 2.pdf

Swift 395 Singer Freidlander.pdf

[enoughisenough]

HI SC

 

Still got friends in the industry? They must LURV you!

 

RE SWIFT 395 Caylon SA Note 4 headed Negative Pledge. Similar wording in lots of securitisation prospectuses including the latest posted by Sced. Also since when was any assurance that they haven't done something naughty good enough? Most likely they have then. Anyway THEY ALL DO and it's not just mortgages but credit cards, insurance, loans you name it.

 

At law I would want to be more certain. By instinct I'll flash my bare a*se on Westminster bridge they have.