Could a person be dismissed for drug use outside of work hours

[will lliw]

Just wonderd if it would be lawfull to dismiss somebody becasue they were caught with cannabis out of work.

 

Any thoughts.....

[godpikachu]

id say it depends on wether their drug use hampered their work or not, for example turning up at work stoned isnt generally a good idea.

 

also, if oyu work in a "respectable" occupation, then being arrested for drug possession can cause the company to fall into disrepute, as obviously the arrest would have to be declared, and the employer would have to ask questions about wether the employee was carrying out illegal actions on company time.

 

At a place where i used to work, most of the staff, and even some in management used to bring cannabis, and stronger stuff, to work, usually to sell to others, for some unknown reason, a blind eye was turned to this, although random searches were carried out from time to time, usually resulting in the sacking of one or two lower level members of staff.

[will lliw]

id say it depends on wether their drug use hampered their work or not, for example turning up at work stoned isnt generally a good idea.

 

also, if oyu work in a "respectable" occupation, then being arrested for drug possession can cause the company to fall into disrepute, as obviously the arrest would have to be declared, and the employer would have to ask questions about wether the employee was carrying out illegal actions on company time.

 

At a place where i used to work, most of the staff, and even some in management used to bring cannabis, and stronger stuff, to work, usually to sell to others, for some unknown reason, a blind eye was turned to this, although random searches were carried out from time to time, usually resulting in the sacking of one or two lower level members of staff.

 

If a person is arrested on there own time do they have to declare this at work? The job they do is not a high profile job just a supervisor ina provate company. There are also no H+S issue like driving or operating machinery....

[kelbag]

I would say from my previous experience that you are best off reading your contract and any policies you've been given to see what the company guidelines are.

 

If it doesn't say in there you have to declare it then don't. Some firms write it into the contract that you do have to declare but only offences of a certain nature i.e financial obviously want to know about fraud etc.

 

I used to work for the railway many moons ago before it was privatised and as the work i did was H&S and meant going trackside I had to declare any drink or drugs related convictions plus anything to do with theft and dishonesty (we went into booking offices as well).

I work in IT now and there's nothing about declaring anything.

 

The employer has to be careful with how they approach it as well, being arrested is not the same as being convicted and the last time I looked, a person was innocent until proven guilty. So if it has to be declared according to the company policy then they can't dismiss a person unless they are actually convicted if that is the avenue they wish to take and they would still have to be very careful on how they went about it and have to prove the conviction was detrimential to either the convicted persons work or to the company's reputation.

 

Hand on heart, if it was me I would keep quiet and claim ignorance saying I didnt know i had to declare, after all if they havent made it clear what they expect how are you meant to know? plus, they can only sack a person once. Might as well get a bit of extra pay out of it whilst you can these days.

 

But that's me and not a professional recommendation.

[will lliw]

I would say from my previous experience that you are best off reading your contract and any policies you've been given to see what the company guidelines are.

 

If it doesn't say in there you have to declare it then don't. Some firms write it into the contract that you do have to declare but only offences of a certain nature i.e financial obviously want to know about fraud etc.

 

I used to work for the railway many moons ago before it was privatised and as the work i did was H&S and meant going trackside I had to declare any drink or drugs related convictions plus anything to do with theft and dishonesty (we went into booking offices as well).

I work in IT now and there's nothing about declaring anything.

 

The employer has to be careful with how they approach it as well, being arrested is not the same as being convicted and the last time I looked, a person was innocent until proven guilty. So if it has to be declared according to the company policy then they can't dismiss a person unless they are actually convicted if that is the avenue they wish to take and they would still have to be very careful on how they went about it and have to prove the conviction was detrimential to either the convicted persons work or to the company's reputation.

 

Hand on heart, if it was me I would keep quiet and claim ignorance saying I didnt know i had to declare, after all if they havent made it clear what they expect how are you meant to know? plus, they can only sack a person once. Might as well get a bit of extra pay out of it whilst you can these days.

 

But that's me and not a professional recommendation.

 

Some things to think about there thanks for your comments they were most helpfull. It does raise a further question though, if a person was bailed and charged but not yet convicted but planned to pleed guilty then do you think this changes the guilty untill prven otherwise stance??

 

Nothing in contract about this and not aware of any policys....

[godpikachu]

If a person is arrested on there own time do they have to declare this at work?

 

well, drug possession, especially if they were found to be in posession of a quantity with intent to supply, is a serious offence, and as such a court appearance would be in order, so it would have to be declared anyways to ensure that they got the day off to attend court.

Even being found with a small amount leads to a permenant record being made, so if the employer checks up by doing a CRB check or something, then they will find an undeclared charge of posession on the record, and will begin asking questions about it.

Many companies now have a zero tolerance policy on drug use, and just because someone uses drugs out of work does not mean they are not still feeling the effects of them while in work, as well as after effects, either caused by use, or prolonged use.

 

Of course, it is up to the individual what they do outside of work, however an illegal act is still illegal, and those who wish to break the law who get caught have to face up to the consequences.

[caro]

A friend of mine was offered a job subject to a blood test to make sure she hadn't used illegal substances. This was in an office for a multi-national oil company.

[will lliw]

well, drug possession, especially if they were found to be in posession of a quantity with intent to supply, is a serious offence, and as such a court appearance would be in order, so it would have to be declared anyways to ensure that they got the day off to attend court.

Even being found with a small amount leads to a permenant record being made, so if the employer checks up by doing a CRB check or something, then they will find an undeclared charge of posession on the record, and will begin asking questions about it.

Many companies now have a zero tolerance policy on drug use, and just because someone uses drugs out of work does not mean they are not still feeling the effects of them while in work, as well as after effects, either caused by use, or prolonged use.

 

Of course, it is up to the individual what they do outside of work, however an illegal act is still illegal, and those who wish to break the law who get caught have to face up to the consequences.

 

 

Ok, if the court date was an employees off day and the employee is not aware of any policy does this change things? At present the employer is not aware, media have not disclosed any info and the police have been asked to keep shush. A further question, if the employers suspects and asks the emplyee, will there be any implications for the employee not disclosing or refusing to comment?

[godpikachu]

A further question, if the employers suspects and asks the emplyee, will there be any implications for the employee not disclosing or refusing to comment?

 

yes, theyd be lying to their employer.

lying = gross misconduct.

[will lliw]

just because someone uses drugs out of work does not mean they are not still feeling the effects of them while in work, as well as after effects, either caused by use, or prolonged use.

 

Of course, it is up to the individual what they do outside of work, however an illegal act is still illegal, and those who wish to break the law who get caught have to face up to the consequences.

 

Also the person wishes to plead guilty and accept the courts punishment and never ever used the drug before, after or whilst at work. Only ever using on off days with 24 hours clear before the next working day.

[will lliw]

yes, theyd be lying to their employer.

lying = gross misconduct.

 

 

Thanks i suspected that but good to have it confirmed. What if the employee refused to answer or said they couldnt answer untill taking advice?

[Bookworm]

Check the terms of employment. A lot of them will have something relating to it, and remember that for a lot of drugs, it will take a lot more than 24 hours to clear the system which means that the employee, if tested, will show a positive result.

 

So the main thing, first and foremost, is to check the terms of employment.

[morteee]

or just dont take illegal drugs is another option of course......

[Johnny Holmes]

Just wonderd if it would be lawfull to dismiss somebody becasue they were caught with cannabis out of work.

 

Any thoughts.....

 

Yes, it would be lawful to dismiss an individual in these circumstances.

 

Put it this way, I doubt whether an ET would consider it an unfair dismissal, which is essentially what you are asking.

 

Also, you have to define 'work time.' It isn't simply 9 to 5.

 

eg Racial discrimination has in the past been proven by an employee by his manager who abused him on a Saturday night out when they met by chance, away from the Mon-Fri workplace.

 

In summary, the manager could not be a racist just on a Sat night then stop being one on a Monday.

[kelbag]

Yes, it would be lawful to dismiss an individual in these circumstances.

 

Put it this way, I doubt whether an ET would consider it an unfair dismissal, which is essentially what you are asking.

 

Also, you have to define 'work time.' It isn't simply 9 to 5.

 

eg Racial discrimination has in the past been proven by an employee by his manager who abused him on a Saturday night out when they met by chance, away from the Mon-Fri workplace.

 

In summary, the manager could not be a racist just on a Sat night then stop being one on a Monday.

 

Sorry Jonny but I have to disagree with you, you say it would be lawful to dimiss a person solely on smoking a bit of dope?

 

I don't agree with the practise and have never been a drug user HOWEVER I don't consider it to be as serious as say murder, assault, rape, armed robbery etc as it is a crime that hurts no-one else (unless its a more addictive habit) and is as serious as smoking a cigarette or getting blind drunk every weekend. And yes I do have experience of the effects as my ex partner was a dope smoker and paranoid as anything but it was his choice, just as it was my choice not to put up with it anymore.

 

Speeding is also illegal but you don't see employers sacking people for getting a speeding fine and points unless their job involves driving and the points result in a ban.

 

Drink driving is also illegal and something I hate but unless your job relied on having a license your employer would be unlikely to sack you (I know a few people who work with my partner who have lost their license this way).

 

Work time is just that, work time. Your private life is your own and no company has the right to dictate what you do in your spare time. If they did i'd want paying for it.

 

I do take your point about racism, but a person can have their own views and opinions and keep them to themselves and not let them affect their working life. Not that I agree with any kind of discrimination be it positive, negative, race, sex, age or religion and any kind of abuse towards another person is totally unacceptable either in work or out no matter what the reason.

 

I've worked for people who thought it was disgraceful that a woman with young children was out of the kitchen working for a living but I only found out they thought like that by accident. They certainly never showed that attitude at work, they were completely professional.

 

What you do outside of work, as long as it does not bring your company into disrepute is your own business and no-one elses.

 

People make mistakes all the time and should be allowed the chance to recover from them without being tarred, feathered and run out of town by people who can only see the small things and not the bigger picture.

 

The OP should read their contract to see where they stand, then and only then will they know what path they need to follow. As long as they don't come into work stoned, high, whatever and the effects are long gone before they do work, I personally have no problem with it.

[Johnny Holmes]

Sorry Jonny but I have to disagree with you, you say it would be lawful to dimiss a person solely on smoking a bit of dope?

 

No, I didn't say that, simply because the OP didn't mention 'smoking dope' he mentioned 'caught with dope.'

Being in possession is more serious than simply smoking a joint.

 

I don't agree with the practise and have never been a drug user HOWEVER I don't consider it to be as serious as say murder, assault, rape, armed robbery etc as it is a crime that hurts no-one else (unless its a more addictive habit) and is as serious as smoking a cigarette or getting blind drunk every weekend. And yes I do have experience of the effects as my ex partner was a dope smoker and paranoid as anything but it was his choice, just as it was my choice not to put up with it anymore.

 

Speeding is also illegal but you don't see employers sacking people for getting a speeding fine and points unless their job involves driving and the points result in a ban.

 

Drink driving is also illegal and something I hate but unless your job relied on having a license your employer would be unlikely to sack you (I know a few people who work with my partner who have lost their license this way).

 

Work time is just that, work time. Your private life is your own and no company has the right to dictate what you do in your spare time. If they did i'd want paying for it.

 

A company can, however, dictate to you what you cannot do in your spare time (within reason), and being involved in drugs is one.

 

I do take your point about racism, but a person can have their own views and opinions and keep them to themselves and not let them affect their working life. Not that I agree with any kind of discrimination be it positive, negative, race, sex, age or religion and any kind of abuse towards another person is totally unacceptable either in work or out no matter what the reason.

 

Not sure of this point you raise.

 

Of course people have their own views, but if they keep them to themselves then they obviously don't upset people do they?:? Because they keep it to themselves!

 

 

 

I've worked for people who thought it was disgraceful that a woman with young children was out of the kitchen working for a living but I only found out they thought like that by accident. They certainly never showed that attitude at work, they were completely professional.

 

What you do outside of work, as long as it does not bring your company into disrepute is your own business and no-one elses.

 

And just how does one of your employees being in possession of drugs not bring your company into disrepute?:?

 

 

 

People make mistakes all the time and should be allowed the chance to recover from them without being tarred, feathered and run out of town by people who can only see the small things and not the bigger picture.

 

:?

 

The OP should read their contract to see where they stand, then and only then will they know what path they need to follow. As long as they don't come into work stoned, high, whatever and the effects are long gone before they do work, I personally have no problem with it.

 

Personally? It's what his company thinks-not you.

Cannabis is illegal, possession or smoking it.

Even if the contract contains no specific reference to drugs, illegal actions are always implied into contracts ortherwise all contracts of any sort would be void.

So I fail to see why looking at a contract will help!:?

What else do you expect? That a clause states you may undertake an illegal activity out of work hours!!?:?

 

 

 

i'm off to bed zzzzzz

[will lliw]

Sorry Jonny but I have to disagree with you, you say it would be lawful to dimiss a person solely on smoking a bit of dope?

 

I don't agree with the practise and have never been a drug user HOWEVER I don't consider it to be as serious as say murder, assault, rape, armed robbery etc as it is a crime that hurts no-one else (unless its a more addictive habit) and is as serious as smoking a cigarette or getting blind drunk every weekend. And yes I do have experience of the effects as my ex partner was a dope smoker and paranoid as anything but it was his choice, just as it was my choice not to put up with it anymore.

 

Speeding is also illegal but you don't see employers sacking people for getting a speeding fine and points unless their job involves driving and the points result in a ban.

 

Drink driving is also illegal and something I hate but unless your job relied on having a license your employer would be unlikely to sack you (I know a few people who work with my partner who have lost their license this way).

 

Work time is just that, work time. Your private life is your own and no company has the right to dictate what you do in your spare time. If they did i'd want paying for it.

 

I do take your point about racism, but a person can have their own views and opinions and keep them to themselves and not let them affect their working life. Not that I agree with any kind of discrimination be it positive, negative, race, sex, age or religion and any kind of abuse towards another person is totally unacceptable either in work or out no matter what the reason.

 

I've worked for people who thought it was disgraceful that a woman with young children was out of the kitchen working for a living but I only found out they thought like that by accident. They certainly never showed that attitude at work, they were completely professional.

 

What you do outside of work, as long as it does not bring your company into disrepute is your own business and no-one elses.

 

People make mistakes all the time and should be allowed the chance to recover from them without being tarred, feathered and run out of town by people who can only see the small things and not the bigger picture.

 

The OP should read their contract to see where they stand, then and only then will they know what path they need to follow. As long as they don't come into work stoned, high, whatever and the effects are long gone before they do work, I personally have no problem with it.

 

Nothing in contract and not aware of any drug policy in business. I am not sure how one would determine wether the company name has been brought into disrepute but the company name has never ever been brought up in any investigation by the police. I firmly believe that one should be able to do what they like out of working hours aslong as any effects dont impeach onto working hours.

 

Thanks for your comments

 

As an after thought I would ask you to consider this...

 

is it fair for a person to lose there job, career, house, standing in community and general life becasue they prefer to grow and smoke dope rather than brew and drink alcohol in there own lesuire time.... And to remind you somthing like 75% of all AE admissions at the weekend are alcohol related, there are no recorded deaths for cannabis consumption but alcohol related illness is the plaque of the NHS.

 

Theres somthing very wrong with society if the answer is yes.......

Edited March 14, 2009 by will lliw

[Johnny Holmes]

 

is it fair for a person to lose there job, career, house, standing in community and general life becasue they prefer to grow and smoke dope rather than brew and drink alcohol in there own lesuire time....

 

Well, one is illegal whilst the other is not.

 

So yes, it is fair.

[caro]

Was there anything when you were employed about revealing a criminal record. I take it you aren't subject to a CRB check in your job?

 

If employers found out and you hadn't been upfront about it, it may call your honesty into doubt. Then again if you tell them about it, that may also ring alarm bells. Damned if you do and damned if you don't, so you have to use your judgment on this. Can you guarantee beyond doubt that it wouldn't get back somehow?

[mree]

And to remind you somthing like 75% of all AE admissions at the weekend are alcohol related, there are no recorded deaths for cannabis consumption but alcohol related illness is the plaque of the NHS.

 

Theres somthing very wrong with society if the answer is yes.......

 

Sorry, but there ARE recorded deaths from cannabis use - for example, driving while stoned, user kills self and others; user develops psychosis as a direct result of smoking cannabis (yes, this HAS been proved), kills someone; user develops lung cancer from smoking joints; user falls asleep while smoking and burns house down... I could go on. Cannabis-induced mental illness costs the NHS a fortune, as do the many other ways cannabis use affects health and causes accidents.

 

I'm far, far from being a prude, but it does intensely irritate me when people try to pass cannabis off as entirely harmless, not hurting anyone, etc. etc. It has a great capacity for harm, and one of the main problems with it is that often it takes years for this harm to become apparent - as people don't see immediate effects, they assume it's safe!

[poppynurse]

I suspect that harm from alcohol use far far exceeds that from cannabis, but one is legal and the other is not.

 

Although I disagree with Jonny Holmes, how can being in possession be far worse than smoking a joint - you have to be in possession of it to smoke it! Now if it were with intent to supply that would be a different matter.

 

The OP need to think carefully about whether to tell his employer or not, and whether to continue smoking as there is the risk of being caught again.

[Johnny Holmes]

Smoking a joint will receive a rap on the knuckles whereas being in possession (of an amount more than a few joints) could be seen as an intent to supply.

 

It is how the police, and law, view smoking a joint & possession rather than the literal meaning.

[poppynurse]

As far as I am aware being caught with cannabis - whether a single joint or a small amount can result in the same charge ie possession.

 

Possession with intent to supply comes in when the police believe the amount to be greater than an amount that could be classed as for individual use, or when a person actually gives or sells to another regardless of amount.

[patdavies]

yes, theyd be lying to their employer.

lying = gross misconduct.

 

No, they would only be lying if they answered in the negative. Refusal to answer a question about what you do in your own personal time is not a disciplinary matter unless the contract of employment requires it.

 

The only other exception is a job that required enhanced CRB check. There is a duty on the employee to inform the employer of any circumstances that change the detail of the CRB disclosure

[patdavies]

i'm off to bed zzzzzz

 

What a very adult response - not