SD from Scott Raees & Co/Vertex Data Science/HSBC

[mr nice]

A relative of mine who is 62 years old recieved Statutory Demand on 24th November 2008 from Scott Raees & Co on the behalf of Vertex Data Science who are acting on behalf of HSBC. The amount in question is £4800. The debt goes back to around 1999 and since then he has been regularly been paying £10.00/£20.00 a month without fail.

 

The date on the Statutory Demand was 5th November 2008 but it was hand delivered on the 24th November 2008. Unfortunately my relative was away at the time and came back in the second week of December 2008. He thought he had missed the 18 days period of setting the demand aside.

 

On the 15th December a Bankruptcy petition order was made for a hearing on 26th Ferbruary 2009. In the Bankruptcy petition it is stated that Statutory Demand was actually served on the 19th November 2008.

 

My reletive recieved another letter from the Solicitors this week in which they have demanded the £4800 in full with £3000 legal costs. A total of £7800 to paid within 7 days.

 

My relative is very worried which is understandable. What about obtaining his CCA agreement. Its obvious too late to do anything regarding setting the statutory demand aside.

 

What should be his course of action from this position.

[rory32]

The date on the Statutory Demand was 5th November 2008 but it was hand delivered on the 24th November 2008. Unfortunately my relative was away at the time and came back in the second week of December 2008. He thought he had missed the 18 days period of setting the demand aside.

He/she can still apply for the set aside but will have to pay for this unless he/she is in receipt of state benifits. They need to do this fairly quickly though otherwise they will be contesting the bankruptcy petition.

 

What are their grounds for disputing the debt?

 

What type of account is it and are they a home owner?

[mr nice]

He is on Pension credits. How much does he have to pay to set the statutory demand aside. He is basically not disputing the debt as he has been paying £10.00 or £20.00 per month. Its a credit card account and he is not a home owner as the house is on his wife.

 

On what grounds can he dispute the debt in the Statutory demand. Does he needs to go a solicitor for the Statutory demand.

 

Is it also worth asking them for a copy of his CCA.

[palomino]

I fear you are too late to have the Statutory Demand set aside. You have 18 days to this and that expired more than a month ago.

Why didn't your relative do something at the time? It is going to be difficult to retrieve the situation now.

 

It would appear that the creditor is going for bankruptcy. Some questions -

- is the £4800 the original amount of the debt or just the latest amount after the regular payments have been made?

- does you relative own property? Does he have equity in that property?

- does he have any other debts?

[mr nice]

The amount of £4800 is the one which has been demanded without the costs. It might include the monthly payments of £10.00 nut I am not sure.He does not own any property and yes he has other credit card debts for which he is on monthly payment plans varying from £10.00 to £20.00 and has been going on since 1999 or so.

 

I also fear its too late for statutory demand. I have told him to give it a try and submit one on Monday by the latest. What else shall he do in the meanwhile. Any use of getting the CCA from them or not. He is getting benefits and what about the advice of a solicitor.

[mr nice]

A relative of mine who is 62 years old recieved Statutory Demand on 24th November 2008 from Scott Raees & Co on the behalf of Vertex Data Science who are acting on behalf of HSBC. The amount in question is £4800. The debt goes back to around 1999 and since then he has been regularly been paying £10.00/£20.00 a month without fail.

 

The date on the Statutory Demand was 5th November 2008 but it was hand delivered on the 24th November 2008. Unfortunately my relative was away at the time and came back in the second week of December 2008. He thought he had missed the 18 days period of setting the demand aside.

 

On the 15th December a Bankruptcy petition order was made for a hearing on 26th Ferbruary 2009. In the Bankruptcy petition it is stated that Statutory Demand was actually served on the 19th November 2008.

 

My reletive recieved another letter from the Solicitorsin which they have demanded the £4800 in full with £3000 legal costs.A total of £7800 to paid within 7 days.

 

Last month he want to see a solicitor who demanded £1500 for him fighting his Bankruptcy case. Unfortunately he did not go to Citizen's advice Bareau.

 

In the last few weeks he has also been writing to Scott Raees the solicitors acting behalf of Vertical Data science. He initially offered them £50.00 a month which was refused but they did ask for his income and expenditure. Last week before the petition he again sent another offer of £75.00 per month and that was refused also.

 

Today at the petition Scott Raees alleged that both the Statutory Demand and the Bankcruptcy petition were both hand delivered to the person named. This is untrue and both times it was just posted through the letter box.

 

The judge said as you are not denying the debt it would have not mattered you did receive the statutory demand in time or not. As you cannot afford to pay so a Bankruptcy order is issued. The whole thing lasted just 5 minutes. Even though he pleaded that he was willing to pay £100.00 a month and even took his income and expenditure deatails with him.

 

It was unbelievable. The person is married and is on pension credits. The property is on his wife and has been since 2000. It has a small mortgage of about £8,000 or so.

 

He does have other credit card debts since 1998/1999 and has bee paying around £10.00/£20.00 every month so all of them without fail.

 

The bankruptcy order has got him really worried and he just cannot stand stigma of being bankrupt. He really wants the Bankcruptcy order to be annulled.

 

Please can anyone help urgently. I have just read that they are 3 ways of how a bankcruptcy order can be annulled:

 

• the bankruptcy order should not have been made, for example because the proper steps involved in obtaining the order were not followed; or
  
• all your bankruptcy debts and the fees and expenses of the bankruptcy proceedings have been either paid in full or guaranteed to the satisfaction of the court; or
  
• you have reached an agreement called an “individual voluntary arrangement” with your creditors to repay all or part of your debts.
  

He will probably want to go through the first step. Please can anyone help on this and that grounds are they for an appeal.

[toddle2u]

Hi Mr Nicee sorry to hear of your relatives problems.

 

I too have recently tried to have a BRO annulled on the first ground that you stated i.e the SD or petition was not sered corectly. The judge wasn't really interested despite being shown irrefutable facts that they were never served correctly. All he was interested in was a) Did you owe the debt and b) could you pay it. As the answers where yes and no he dismissed the appeal for annulment and issued the BRO. Sounds very similar to your relatives predicament.

 

In the current economic climate there is very little stigma to BR an given your relatives age rather than paying off the debts he can use the money elsewhere and I am sure putting it to better more enjoyable use. With regards ot the property as it has been in his wife's name since 2000 there is nothing the OR can do to take the equity in it.

 

Sorry can't be of more constructive use but can only give you the benefit of my experience.

 

Best of Luck

[42man]

You could get it annulled if you can prove that there has been an abuse of process (which it sounds like there has been).....bear in mind that it may be that the the sum is made up of excessive charges, and the agreement may not contain the prescribed terms....you'll have to move pretty quickly though. Has there been an interview with the official receiver as yet ?

 

Your friend will need to co to the local county court and pick up a bankruptcy annullment form which you will need to fill in and fill out an affadavit too. I think this still costs £35 to make an application to annul

 

They really need to do this before they see the official receiver, if they have had an interview did they dispute the debt with the OR ? If not when they go and see the OR, they must in the forms put a large 'D' in a circle when it comes to listing the debts (this means you are disputing the debts claimed against you - this could be because of no agreement, excessive charges, valid default notices etc....when they go and see the Official Receiver take a copy of the form too, the Official receiver will continue with the interview but may be limited in how far they go as they will want to attend the hearing too. Their costs will have also to be paid, BUT if you win the opposing side will have to pay the OR's costs...

 

I would also IMMEDIATELY send a SAR to the original creditor to reveal their paperwork which may give your friend some ammunition.

 

This costs £10 (but it could save them) they have to comply with this in 40 days. This may be enough time before a BR annullment hearing though...

 

address it to the Data Controller at each company:-

 

 

Data Protection Act 1998

 

Subject Access Request

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

ACCOUNT NUMBER: xxxxxxxxx (or multiple numbers if more than one account)

 

Please supply me with all data that you hold on me. This includes in particular, but is not limited to, the following:-

 

1. The original signed, executed credit agreement and any terms and conditions that applied to the account at the time of default and at the time the account was opened.

2. Transcriptions of all telephone conversations recorded and any notes made in relation to telephone conversations by your company, or by any previous creditor

3. Where there has been any event in my account history over this period which has required manual intervention by any person, I require disclosure of any indication or notes which have either caused or resulted in that manual intervention, or other evidence of that manual intervention in relation to my account formerly held with ORIGINAL CREDITOR.

4. True copies of any notice of assignment and/or default notice or enforcement notice that you or the original creditor sent me, with a copy of any proof of postage that you hold.

5. Documents relating to any insurance added to the account, including the insurance contract and terms and conditions, date it was added and deleted (if applicable).

6. Details of any collection charges added to the account; specifically, the date it was levied, the amount of the charge, a detailed financial breakdown of how the charge was calculated, and what the charge covers.

7. Specific details of the fees/charges levied by any other agency in respect of this account and a detailed breakdown of said fees/charges and what each charge relates to and on what date said fees/charges were levied.

8. A genuine copy of any notice of fair use of my data as required by the Data Protection Act 1998

9. A list of third party agencies to whom you have disclosed my personal data and a summary of the nature of the information you have disclosed.

10. Copies of statements for the entire duration of the credit agreement.

 

I enclose the statutory maximum fee of £10. You have 40 days in which to comply.

If there is specific information which you require in order to satisfy yourself as to my identity, please let me know by return. However, please note that the above address is the one which you normally use to communicate my private business to me and which you have hitherto found to be acceptable.

 

Yours faithfully,

 

 

There is one piece of case law that might help....

 

Judge Boggis QC - RE AWAN - [2000] BPIR 241

'In my judgment, bankruptcy is one of the most serious forms of execution that can be brought against a debtor. In any bankruptcy proceedings it is, in my view, absolutely clear that the provisions as to service must be followed exactly. The rules provide in terms that the petition must be supported by an affidavit of service showing how the petition was served, and express reference is made to substituted service and the way in which that then is to be proved, which involves the affidavit of service having with it a sealed copy of the order.' - JUDGE BOGGIS QC - SITTING AS A JUDGE OF THE HIGH COURT

Then r 6.15 says:

(1) Service of the petition should be proved by affidavit.

(2) The affidavit shall have exhibited to it -

(a) a sealed copy of the petition, and

(b) if substituted service has been ordered, a sealed copy of the order;

and it should be filed in court immediately after service.

What you also need is a 'friendly' judge too...did you defend the petition on any other aspect apart from the non receiving of the demand ? They need to move quickly though...

 

Were there any earlier adjournments at all ?

 

My own thread is here - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/dca-legal-successes/104409-bankruptcy-order-twice.html

[42man]

It makes no difference if the debt is admitted, the opposing solicitor has lied.....did they get an affadavit in at the BR hearing ?

[42man]

When they get to the court....ask them for all copies of any other paperwork relating to the case, any affadavits submitted by the process server or the opposing solicitors....they may have to pay a small charge for copying fees....

[42man]

A call here might possibly help too - IVA | Individual Voluntary Arrangements | IVAs | UK Debt and IVA Advice Help (free and impartial)

[mr nice]

Thanks for your great advice. We have not seen the official reciever yet as this only happened yesterday at about 4.00 pm. The solicitor did provide 2 written affadavits that the statutory demand and Bankcruptcy petition were given by hand but thats rubbish. They were just posted through the letter box.

 

The situation was the same as toddle2U has explained. The judge said it does not matter how when the Statutory demand was sent. Are you admitting to the debt yes or no. Secondly as you can't afford to make the payment I have no choice to but issue the Bankruptcy order. It did not even last 5 minutes.

 

We did not fight the petition on any other grounds except for just the statutory demand and BP were not served properly. This was the first hearing and no adjournments. I will go the local court today and the get form that's required for the anullment and fill it over the weekend and it in first thing Monday morning.

[42man]

Any more news on this Mr Nice ?